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Controversial but....
claphamquin (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 07:35
Is it worth hoping for a Bath win this Friday?

Never thought I’d say I could be supporting the opposition but given we won’t finish top 6 or be relegated, the league is pretty much over.

A loss and JKs (and others) tenure surely becomes untenable?!?!! That would mean we can start the recovery process.

A win and we paper over the cracks for another week.

So in a very weird way, I actually believe this week it is better for the long term success of the club to support the opposition.

I did say it was controversial!!!....

 
Re: Controversial but....
raedarius (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 07:38
Hope achieves nothing. Why not just expect it instead?

 
Re: Controversial but....
DOK (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 07:40
Sorry. I support Harlequins - thick and thin! (and this is very thin). But I know where you're coming from! smiling smiley

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 08:24
I can never hope for a Quins defeat, but if it does happen then I do hope that the board act now rather than waiting to the end of the season.

Anyone new coming in needs time to look at the squad etc. so making a change in pre-season would be simply delaying the repairing process.

I suspect however that as contracts have recently been extended, if and when we lose on Friday nothing will change at all.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 09:26
Well, in my most humble opinion without being condescending, patronising or meaning to tell other fans how to behave in any way whatsoever, you can place that idea in a cavity that solar rays do not disturb.smiling smiley

COYQ!!!!!



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Boonie (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 09:48
Not sure it would make much difference; I suspect the board are thinking that we are safe in the Prem for this season, so let's look at next season on the basis that it can't be as bad as this one...and if it is, a decision can be made then. After all, the board have just made the decision to extend the contracts, so to back down now would be to lose even more face.



"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to bleat about it all over the internet"

 
Re: Controversial but....
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 10:03
agreed



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Controversial but....
T-Bone (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 12:40
Would never hope for a Quins loss. I see what you're saying, but would always want Quins to win and will be thereon Friday hoping the same. I think changes need to be made either way, but also don't think a loss would make any difference to the board's thinking.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Hellequin (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 14:35
Wouldn't say I was hoping for a loss but hoping if we do lose badly that it will trigger the club to take some positive action.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 15:05
I want Quins to win - they need to get out of the rut. They will have a much better season next year IF they can rediscover winning ways now. However ineffective the coaching is and however poorly the players are responding, any recovery, with whichever coaching team, has to be built on playing with intensity, to a plan, with pride and skill - and the sooner it starts the better.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 18:29
Quote:
Scaramouche
Well, in my most humble opinion without being condescending, patronising or meaning to tell other fans how to behave in any way whatsoever, you can place that idea in a cavity that solar rays do not disturb.smiling smiley
COYQ!!!!!

Couldn't agree more!

 
Re: Controversial but....
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 19:01
Must admit, the thought of wanting Quins to lose does not cross my mind. Ideally we win every game left this season with a TBP

 
Re: Controversial but....
D-Quins (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 21:43
As a Quins Fan I hope we win every game, over the last 17 years it has not always been the case that we can win, but I still hope.

However I would guess we could lose everyone of the remaining games and our DOR will be JK in September. You don't give someone a new contract then kick them out a few weeks later. If you are giving them a contract they will have a lot of credit to play with, so it will be sometime before that runs out



D-Quins

 
Re: Controversial but....
Robertquin (IP Logged)
27 February, 2018 21:47
I don't want my team to lose to prove a point.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 06:15
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.

I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

 
Re: Controversial but....
johnlid (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 06:40
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.
I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

Guess that's because they're judging him on results?

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 06:53
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.
I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

Whilst I agree that I personally wouldn't want Quins to lose, you've yet again deliberately ignored the wider point being made.

I hope we win on Friday but if we do I hope it doesn't make the board think JK is doing a good job. A win would be papering over some major cracks and I think we'd need to go on and win every game remaining this season for must of us to have any confidence in JK staying.

If we lose though I think he has to go for the good of the club and I'd start to think that anyone who thought otherwise was a fan of JK rather than a fan of Quins.

 
Re: Controversial but....
The Dead Baron (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 08:06
This is rugby, not football. I hope the game never ends up down that dark path.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 10:32
agreed



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 10:42
Quote:
The Dead Baron
This is rugby, not football. I hope the game never ends up down that dark path.

I think it's very easy for rugby fans to think of themselves as being above football fans, and to be fair in lots of ways they are.

But this isn't one of them.

Boycotts and protests from football fans have ousted many a terrible board/chairman and quite rightly to. And whilst football fans are certainly quite impatient, I'd say they are generally more patient than the boards who actually make the decisions.

I'd also argue that football fans show at least an equal amount of loyalty to their clubs as rugby fans, so in this case at least I don't think rugby fans can claim to hold the moral high ground.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 14:41
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.
I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

Whilst I agree that I personally wouldn't want Quins to lose, you've yet again deliberately ignored the wider point being made.

I hope we win on Friday but if we do I hope it doesn't make the board think JK is doing a good job. A win would be papering over some major cracks and I think we'd need to go on and win every game remaining this season for must of us to have any confidence in JK staying.

If we lose though I think he has to go for the good of the club and I'd start to think that anyone who thought otherwise was a fan of JK rather than a fan of Quins.

I'm not missing the point. There's a world of difference between "if we lose, I hope JK is closer to leaving" and "I hope we lose, so there's more reason to sack JK".

The problems at Quins cannot be down to one person, and they won't be fixed by sacking one person. What would happen if JK was gone today? Would everything suddenly improve? Would we begin a winning streak? And if not, how long do you give the next person before wishing them sacked? Maybe after relegation?

The board have extended his contract. I would hope that he's convinced them of his plans, and has sufficiently explained away his poor performance so far this season. And ultimately it doesn't matter if the fans don't have confidence, as they don't make the decisions.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 14:51
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.
I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

Whilst I agree that I personally wouldn't want Quins to lose, you've yet again deliberately ignored the wider point being made.

I hope we win on Friday but if we do I hope it doesn't make the board think JK is doing a good job. A win would be papering over some major cracks and I think we'd need to go on and win every game remaining this season for must of us to have any confidence in JK staying.

If we lose though I think he has to go for the good of the club and I'd start to think that anyone who thought otherwise was a fan of JK rather than a fan of Quins.

I'm not missing the point. There's a world of difference between "if we lose, I hope JK is closer to leaving" and "I hope we lose, so there's more reason to sack JK".

The problems at Quins cannot be down to one person, and they won't be fixed by sacking one person. What would happen if JK was gone today? Would everything suddenly improve? Would we begin a winning streak? And if not, how long do you give the next person before wishing them sacked? Maybe after relegation?

The board have extended his contract. I would hope that he's convinced them of his plans, and has sufficiently explained away his poor performance so far this season. And ultimately it doesn't matter if the fans don't have confidence, as they don't make the decisions.

*Straw Man argument alert*

Nobody has said it's down to one person. Nobody has said we'd start a winning streak if he left. Nobody has said it would suddenly improve.

But it's rubbish now. It has been rubbish for the entire time of JK being in charge. And it was rubbish in the couple of years before that when he was a large part of the coaching staff anyway.

Therefore, whilst there's no guarantee that anyone else would make us better, any sensible team would take that chance rather than continuing with the same tired old nonsense that is showing no signs of improvement and is in fact getting worse. A chance of improvement has to be worth chasing rather than sticking with continued mediocrity (or worse).

As for how long the next person gets? I'd say about two years, but it would all depend on whether we saw signs that they were actually trying to do something to improve the team. You are very fixated on setting certain deadlines for things, whereas I'd hope our board are a lot more fluid about things and make their decisions based on what is going on in front of their eyes rather than just setting targets/deadlines and then burying their heads in the sand.

And as for your final sentence...wow. How much did the board pay you to spit that one out? grinning smiley

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 15:02
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.
I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

Whilst I agree that I personally wouldn't want Quins to lose, you've yet again deliberately ignored the wider point being made.

I hope we win on Friday but if we do I hope it doesn't make the board think JK is doing a good job. A win would be papering over some major cracks and I think we'd need to go on and win every game remaining this season for must of us to have any confidence in JK staying.

If we lose though I think he has to go for the good of the club and I'd start to think that anyone who thought otherwise was a fan of JK rather than a fan of Quins.

I'm not missing the point. There's a world of difference between "if we lose, I hope JK is closer to leaving" and "I hope we lose, so there's more reason to sack JK".

The problems at Quins cannot be down to one person, and they won't be fixed by sacking one person. What would happen if JK was gone today? Would everything suddenly improve? Would we begin a winning streak? And if not, how long do you give the next person before wishing them sacked? Maybe after relegation?

The board have extended his contract. I would hope that he's convinced them of his plans, and has sufficiently explained away his poor performance so far this season. And ultimately it doesn't matter if the fans don't have confidence, as they don't make the decisions.

*Straw Man argument alert*

Nobody has said it's down to one person. Nobody has said we'd start a winning streak if he left. Nobody has said it would suddenly improve.

But it's rubbish now. It has been rubbish for the entire time of JK being in charge. And it was rubbish in the couple of years before that when he was a large part of the coaching staff anyway.

Therefore, whilst there's no guarantee that anyone else would make us better, any sensible team would take that chance rather than continuing with the same tired old nonsense that is showing no signs of improvement and is in fact getting worse. A chance of improvement has to be worth chasing rather than sticking with continued mediocrity (or worse).

As for how long the next person gets? I'd say about two years, but it would all depend on whether we saw signs that they were actually trying to do something to improve the team. You are very fixated on setting certain deadlines for things, whereas I'd hope our board are a lot more fluid about things and make their decisions based on what is going on in front of their eyes rather than just setting targets/deadlines and then burying their heads in the sand.

And as for your final sentence...wow. How much did the board pay you to spit that one out? grinning smiley

But people seem to rarely call for the head of anyone except JK. What if he's actually a very good DoR, but the coaches are simply failing?

This is no straw man argument. It's aimed to get people to look beyond ousting JK, a fixation which for some has led to them wanting Quins to lose.

The last sentence is a fact.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 15:19
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.
I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

Whilst I agree that I personally wouldn't want Quins to lose, you've yet again deliberately ignored the wider point being made.

I hope we win on Friday but if we do I hope it doesn't make the board think JK is doing a good job. A win would be papering over some major cracks and I think we'd need to go on and win every game remaining this season for must of us to have any confidence in JK staying.

If we lose though I think he has to go for the good of the club and I'd start to think that anyone who thought otherwise was a fan of JK rather than a fan of Quins.

I'm not missing the point. There's a world of difference between "if we lose, I hope JK is closer to leaving" and "I hope we lose, so there's more reason to sack JK".

The problems at Quins cannot be down to one person, and they won't be fixed by sacking one person. What would happen if JK was gone today? Would everything suddenly improve? Would we begin a winning streak? And if not, how long do you give the next person before wishing them sacked? Maybe after relegation?

The board have extended his contract. I would hope that he's convinced them of his plans, and has sufficiently explained away his poor performance so far this season. And ultimately it doesn't matter if the fans don't have confidence, as they don't make the decisions.

*Straw Man argument alert*

Nobody has said it's down to one person. Nobody has said we'd start a winning streak if he left. Nobody has said it would suddenly improve.

But it's rubbish now. It has been rubbish for the entire time of JK being in charge. And it was rubbish in the couple of years before that when he was a large part of the coaching staff anyway.

Therefore, whilst there's no guarantee that anyone else would make us better, any sensible team would take that chance rather than continuing with the same tired old nonsense that is showing no signs of improvement and is in fact getting worse. A chance of improvement has to be worth chasing rather than sticking with continued mediocrity (or worse).

As for how long the next person gets? I'd say about two years, but it would all depend on whether we saw signs that they were actually trying to do something to improve the team. You are very fixated on setting certain deadlines for things, whereas I'd hope our board are a lot more fluid about things and make their decisions based on what is going on in front of their eyes rather than just setting targets/deadlines and then burying their heads in the sand.

And as for your final sentence...wow. How much did the board pay you to spit that one out? grinning smiley

But people seem to rarely call for the head of anyone except JK. What if he's actually a very good DoR, but the coaches are simply failing?

This is no straw man argument. It's aimed to get people to look beyond ousting JK, a fixation which for some has led to them wanting Quins to lose.

The last sentence is a fact.

A fact about one person on this thread. Are you ignoring the fact that everyone else has said they don't want us to lose?

And your straw man argument was around this idea that getting rid of JK would guarantee success. Nobody has said this, but you're arguing against it anyway. So yes it's the very definition of a straw man argument.

And of course people call for the head of JK because he is the one responsible for the coaching team as a whole. If the coaches are simply failing, it is his job to replace them...otherwise what is he there for? How can he be a good DOR if he's employing bad coaches? Bizarre.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 15:46
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.
I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

Whilst I agree that I personally wouldn't want Quins to lose, you've yet again deliberately ignored the wider point being made.

I hope we win on Friday but if we do I hope it doesn't make the board think JK is doing a good job. A win would be papering over some major cracks and I think we'd need to go on and win every game remaining this season for must of us to have any confidence in JK staying.

If we lose though I think he has to go for the good of the club and I'd start to think that anyone who thought otherwise was a fan of JK rather than a fan of Quins.

I'm not missing the point. There's a world of difference between "if we lose, I hope JK is closer to leaving" and "I hope we lose, so there's more reason to sack JK".

The problems at Quins cannot be down to one person, and they won't be fixed by sacking one person. What would happen if JK was gone today? Would everything suddenly improve? Would we begin a winning streak? And if not, how long do you give the next person before wishing them sacked? Maybe after relegation?

The board have extended his contract. I would hope that he's convinced them of his plans, and has sufficiently explained away his poor performance so far this season. And ultimately it doesn't matter if the fans don't have confidence, as they don't make the decisions.

*Straw Man argument alert*

Nobody has said it's down to one person. Nobody has said we'd start a winning streak if he left. Nobody has said it would suddenly improve.

But it's rubbish now. It has been rubbish for the entire time of JK being in charge. And it was rubbish in the couple of years before that when he was a large part of the coaching staff anyway.

Therefore, whilst there's no guarantee that anyone else would make us better, any sensible team would take that chance rather than continuing with the same tired old nonsense that is showing no signs of improvement and is in fact getting worse. A chance of improvement has to be worth chasing rather than sticking with continued mediocrity (or worse).

As for how long the next person gets? I'd say about two years
[i][/i], but it would all depend on whether we saw signs that they were actually trying to do something to improve the team. You are very fixated on setting certain deadlines for things, whereas I'd hope our board are a lot more fluid about things and make their decisions based on what is going on in front of their eyes rather than just setting targets/deadlines and then burying their heads in the sand.

And as for your final sentence...wow. How much did the board pay you to spit that one out? grinning smiley

How long has John Kingston been DOR?



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 16:42
Quote:
Scaramouche
How long has John Kingston been DOR?

Almost two years. And we're getting worse and worse.

And as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, I think JK is rightly given less time because of the amount of time he had at the club in a very senior position prior to being DOR.

He's not suddenly going to turn things around in the next 4-5 games anyway.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 16:51
My deadline remains Xmas. If we are bottom and winless I will personally deliver the petition to Mr Ellis. Until then I will trust in Miracles on 34th Street.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Controversial but....
quinsfan123 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 16:56
What Quins need to do now is to get either a Mallinder or Cockerill to come on board as a "consultant" - with room for them to take over at the end of the season. That way they would have a grounding and an understanding of the squad and club so they would not be starting completely afresh come the summer and new season.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 16:58
Quote:
quinsfan123
What Quins need to do now is to get either a Mallinder or Cockerill to come on board as a "consultant" - with room for them to take over at the end of the season. That way they would have a grounding and an understanding of the squad and club so they would not be starting completely afresh come the summer and new season.


Constructive thinking. I like it!



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 17:10
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.
I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

Whilst I agree that I personally wouldn't want Quins to lose, you've yet again deliberately ignored the wider point being made.

I hope we win on Friday but if we do I hope it doesn't make the board think JK is doing a good job. A win would be papering over some major cracks and I think we'd need to go on and win every game remaining this season for must of us to have any confidence in JK staying.

If we lose though I think he has to go for the good of the club and I'd start to think that anyone who thought otherwise was a fan of JK rather than a fan of Quins.

I'm not missing the point. There's a world of difference between "if we lose, I hope JK is closer to leaving" and "I hope we lose, so there's more reason to sack JK".

The problems at Quins cannot be down to one person, and they won't be fixed by sacking one person. What would happen if JK was gone today? Would everything suddenly improve? Would we begin a winning streak? And if not, how long do you give the next person before wishing them sacked? Maybe after relegation?

The board have extended his contract. I would hope that he's convinced them of his plans, and has sufficiently explained away his poor performance so far this season. And ultimately it doesn't matter if the fans don't have confidence, as they don't make the decisions.

*Straw Man argument alert*

Nobody has said it's down to one person. Nobody has said we'd start a winning streak if he left. Nobody has said it would suddenly improve.

But it's rubbish now. It has been rubbish for the entire time of JK being in charge. And it was rubbish in the couple of years before that when he was a large part of the coaching staff anyway.

Therefore, whilst there's no guarantee that anyone else would make us better, any sensible team would take that chance rather than continuing with the same tired old nonsense that is showing no signs of improvement and is in fact getting worse. A chance of improvement has to be worth chasing rather than sticking with continued mediocrity (or worse).

As for how long the next person gets? I'd say about two years, but it would all depend on whether we saw signs that they were actually trying to do something to improve the team. You are very fixated on setting certain deadlines for things, whereas I'd hope our board are a lot more fluid about things and make their decisions based on what is going on in front of their eyes rather than just setting targets/deadlines and then burying their heads in the sand.

And as for your final sentence...wow. How much did the board pay you to spit that one out? grinning smiley

But people seem to rarely call for the head of anyone except JK. What if he's actually a very good DoR, but the coaches are simply failing?

This is no straw man argument. It's aimed to get people to look beyond ousting JK, a fixation which for some has led to them wanting Quins to lose.

The last sentence is a fact.

A fact about one person on this thread. Are you ignoring the fact that everyone else has said they don't want us to lose?

And your straw man argument was around this idea that getting rid of JK would guarantee success. Nobody has said this, but you're arguing against it anyway. So yes it's the very definition of a straw man argument.

And of course people call for the head of JK because he is the one responsible for the coaching team as a whole. If the coaches are simply failing, it is his job to replace them...otherwise what is he there for? How can he be a good DOR if he's employing bad coaches? Bizarre.

You are taking a very simplistic view of the situation, seemingly precluding all other possibilities.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Uncle Arthur (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 17:21
John Kingston’s contract was “extended”. Length of the extension was not defined ... performance?

 
Re: Controversial but....
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 17:33
I do hope it turns out that JK gave the Board a list of player targets to sign which they poo pooed and that he is working with one hand tied behind his back. As we know nothing of what is going on then anything is possibubble.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 17:43
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Quinky Kin
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talkshowhost86
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Quinky Kin
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talkshowhost86
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Quinky Kin
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talkshowhost86
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Quinky Kin
Wanting your team to lose as a means to getting your DoR to lose his job is an appalling attitude. It's like wanting someone to crash their car to prove they're a bad driver. It's also pathetic and childish.
I'd like the team to win well, and end the slump. I'd like injured players to return, bolster the squad, and everything to click into place. I'd like JK, Minty and the other coaches to be shown that it just needed time to turn things around. But I guess if your goal is simply to remove JK, none of that would help.

I guess it's harder for some to hide their disdain for JK.

Whilst I agree that I personally wouldn't want Quins to lose, you've yet again deliberately ignored the wider point being made.

I hope we win on Friday but if we do I hope it doesn't make the board think JK is doing a good job. A win would be papering over some major cracks and I think we'd need to go on and win every game remaining this season for must of us to have any confidence in JK staying.

If we lose though I think he has to go for the good of the club and I'd start to think that anyone who thought otherwise was a fan of JK rather than a fan of Quins.

I'm not missing the point. There's a world of difference between "if we lose, I hope JK is closer to leaving" and "I hope we lose, so there's more reason to sack JK".

The problems at Quins cannot be down to one person, and they won't be fixed by sacking one person. What would happen if JK was gone today? Would everything suddenly improve? Would we begin a winning streak? And if not, how long do you give the next person before wishing them sacked? Maybe after relegation?

The board have extended his contract. I would hope that he's convinced them of his plans, and has sufficiently explained away his poor performance so far this season. And ultimately it doesn't matter if the fans don't have confidence, as they don't make the decisions.

*Straw Man argument alert*

Nobody has said it's down to one person. Nobody has said we'd start a winning streak if he left. Nobody has said it would suddenly improve.

But it's rubbish now. It has been rubbish for the entire time of JK being in charge. And it was rubbish in the couple of years before that when he was a large part of the coaching staff anyway.

Therefore, whilst there's no guarantee that anyone else would make us better, any sensible team would take that chance rather than continuing with the same tired old nonsense that is showing no signs of improvement and is in fact getting worse. A chance of improvement has to be worth chasing rather than sticking with continued mediocrity (or worse).

As for how long the next person gets? I'd say about two years, but it would all depend on whether we saw signs that they were actually trying to do something to improve the team. You are very fixated on setting certain deadlines for things, whereas I'd hope our board are a lot more fluid about things and make their decisions based on what is going on in front of their eyes rather than just setting targets/deadlines and then burying their heads in the sand.

And as for your final sentence...wow. How much did the board pay you to spit that one out? grinning smiley

But people seem to rarely call for the head of anyone except JK. What if he's actually a very good DoR, but the coaches are simply failing?

This is no straw man argument. It's aimed to get people to look beyond ousting JK, a fixation which for some has led to them wanting Quins to lose.

The last sentence is a fact.

A fact about one person on this thread. Are you ignoring the fact that everyone else has said they don't want us to lose?

And your straw man argument was around this idea that getting rid of JK would guarantee success. Nobody has said this, but you're arguing against it anyway. So yes it's the very definition of a straw man argument.

And of course people call for the head of JK because he is the one responsible for the coaching team as a whole. If the coaches are simply failing, it is his job to replace them...otherwise what is he there for? How can he be a good DOR if he's employing bad coaches? Bizarre.

You are taking a very simplistic view of the situation, seemingly precluding all other possibilities.

What other possibilities are you thinking of?

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 20:43
One possibility is that the board believed that Quins have suffered badly with injuries, using our last summer signings as an example. A couple of games lost that could easily have been won, which leave us nearer the bottom than the top. They may believe that JK had a 3 year plan which he managed to keep to, all things considered. They may have spoken to the players too, for all we know. It may be that they have lined up all manner of support, as well as lining up a few contract non-renewals. They may even have looked at factors that we haven't considered, and decided that taking everything into consideration, JK is doing a fine job.

Any or all of these are possible.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 21:01
Quote:
Quinky Kin
One possibility is that the board believed that Quins have suffered badly with injuries, using our last summer signings as an example. A couple of games lost that could easily have been won, which leave us nearer the bottom than the top. They may believe that JK had a 3 year plan which he managed to keep to, all things considered. They may have spoken to the players too, for all we know. It may be that they have lined up all manner of support, as well as lining up a few contract non-renewals. They may even have looked at factors that we haven't considered, and decided that taking everything into consideration, JK is doing a fine job.
Any or all of these are possible.

If the board believe any of that I will be even more worried about the board than I am about the coaches.

He's doing okay because we almost won games?

He has a three year plan but they didn't give him a three year contract?

They've spoken to the players who have recently started voicing discontent in some quarters?

I'm sorry I just don't believe any of that as explaining why we've renewed contracts midway through a hugely disappointing season.

Of course there are reasons we might not know about, but aren't you the one who is always so keen to take things at face value? Or does that not work when face value suggests we're just taking the budget option.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Stooperman (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 20:57
Quote:
Quinky Kin
One possibility is that the board believed that Quins have suffered badly with injuries, using our last summer signings as an example. A couple of games lost that could easily have been won, which leave us nearer the bottom than the top. They may believe that JK had a 3 year plan which he managed to keep to, all things considered. They may have spoken to the players too, for all we know. It may be that they have lined up all manner of support, as well as lining up a few contract non-renewals. They may even have looked at factors that we haven't considered, and decided that taking everything into consideration, JK is doing a fine job.
Any or all of these are possible.

(Sm163)

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 21:12
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
One possibility is that the board believed that Quins have suffered badly with injuries, using our last summer signings as an example. A couple of games lost that could easily have been won, which leave us nearer the bottom than the top. They may believe that JK had a 3 year plan which he managed to keep to, all things considered. They may have spoken to the players too, for all we know. It may be that they have lined up all manner of support, as well as lining up a few contract non-renewals. They may even have looked at factors that we haven't considered, and decided that taking everything into consideration, JK is doing a fine job.
Any or all of these are possible.

If the board believe any of that I will be even more worried about the board than I am about the coaches.

He's doing okay because we almost won games?

He has a three year plan but they didn't give him a three year contract?

They've spoken to the players who have recently started voicing discontent in some quarters?

I'm sorry I just don't believe any of that as explaining why we've renewed contracts midway through a hugely disappointing season.

Of course there are reasons we might not know about, but aren't you the one who is always so keen to take things at face value? Or does that not work when face value suggests we're just taking the budget option.

Ok, you're right. Your assessment is the only possible scenario. Time will doubtless prove it.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 21:25
Quote:
Quinky Kin
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talkshowhost86
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Quinky Kin
One possibility is that the board believed that Quins have suffered badly with injuries, using our last summer signings as an example. A couple of games lost that could easily have been won, which leave us nearer the bottom than the top. They may believe that JK had a 3 year plan which he managed to keep to, all things considered. They may have spoken to the players too, for all we know. It may be that they have lined up all manner of support, as well as lining up a few contract non-renewals. They may even have looked at factors that we haven't considered, and decided that taking everything into consideration, JK is doing a fine job.
Any or all of these are possible.

If the board believe any of that I will be even more worried about the board than I am about the coaches.

He's doing okay because we almost won games?

He has a three year plan but they didn't give him a three year contract?

They've spoken to the players who have recently started voicing discontent in some quarters?

I'm sorry I just don't believe any of that as explaining why we've renewed contracts midway through a hugely disappointing season.

Of course there are reasons we might not know about, but aren't you the one who is always so keen to take things at face value? Or does that not work when face value suggests we're just taking the budget option.

Ok, you're right. Your assessment is the only possible scenario. Time will doubtless prove it.

I mean...I've literally accepted that there could be scenarios that we don't know about. So not really sure what you're talking about.

But of the scenarios you raised I just said why I didn't think they were realistic.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 21:29
Quote:
talkshowhost86
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Quinky Kin
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talkshowhost86
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Quinky Kin
One possibility is that the board believed that Quins have suffered badly with injuries, using our last summer signings as an example. A couple of games lost that could easily have been won, which leave us nearer the bottom than the top. They may believe that JK had a 3 year plan which he managed to keep to, all things considered. They may have spoken to the players too, for all we know. It may be that they have lined up all manner of support, as well as lining up a few contract non-renewals. They may even have looked at factors that we haven't considered, and decided that taking everything into consideration, JK is doing a fine job.
Any or all of these are possible.

If the board believe any of that I will be even more worried about the board than I am about the coaches.

He's doing okay because we almost won games?

He has a three year plan but they didn't give him a three year contract?

They've spoken to the players who have recently started voicing discontent in some quarters?

I'm sorry I just don't believe any of that as explaining why we've renewed contracts midway through a hugely disappointing season.

Of course there are reasons we might not know about, but aren't you the one who is always so keen to take things at face value? Or does that not work when face value suggests we're just taking the budget option.

Ok, you're right. Your assessment is the only possible scenario. Time will doubtless prove it.

I mean...I've literally accepted that there could be scenarios that we don't know about. So not really sure what you're talking about.

But of the scenarios you raised I just said why I didn't think they were realistic.

Like I said, time will tell.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
28 February, 2018 21:54
Quote:
Quinky Kin
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talkshowhost86
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Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
One possibility is that the board believed that Quins have suffered badly with injuries, using our last summer signings as an example. A couple of games lost that could easily have been won, which leave us nearer the bottom than the top. They may believe that JK had a 3 year plan which he managed to keep to, all things considered. They may have spoken to the players too, for all we know. It may be that they have lined up all manner of support, as well as lining up a few contract non-renewals. They may even have looked at factors that we haven't considered, and decided that taking everything into consideration, JK is doing a fine job.
Any or all of these are possible.

If the board believe any of that I will be even more worried about the board than I am about the coaches.

He's doing okay because we almost won games?

He has a three year plan but they didn't give him a three year contract?

They've spoken to the players who have recently started voicing discontent in some quarters?

I'm sorry I just don't believe any of that as explaining why we've renewed contracts midway through a hugely disappointing season.

Of course there are reasons we might not know about, but aren't you the one who is always so keen to take things at face value? Or does that not work when face value suggests we're just taking the budget option.

Ok, you're right. Your assessment is the only possible scenario. Time will doubtless prove it.

I mean...I've literally accepted that there could be scenarios that we don't know about. So not really sure what you're talking about.

But of the scenarios you raised I just said why I didn't think they were realistic.

Like I said, time will tell.

Indeed. I believe that is how time works.

 
Re: Controversial but....
DOK (IP Logged)
01 March, 2018 08:01
If we lose then I don't think it it'll make much difference. I think the club is going to go through a big soul search/review before the London Irish game (I'm assuming the Sarries game is a given (loss) ).I think that's where JK's remark about getting Bath out the way comes from. When they can get off the treadmill of trying to pick up the players and prepare for the next game, then maybe they can step back and attempt to regroup and refocus. But I don't think they're expecting much different except a bit of pride from playing Bath.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
01 March, 2018 11:00
Have any players actually expressed dissent with the management?

Serious question because it would be very unusual. If they did somebody would surely point out that there are two sides to a Player/Coach relationship.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
01 March, 2018 11:12
Quote:
Scaramouche
Have any players actually expressed dissent with the management?
Serious question because it would be very unusual. If they did somebody would surely point out that there are two sides to a Player/Coach relationship.

Not openly or obviously but Marler has talked about needing change, Ugo talked about some of the players not being happy about the contract extensions and Care hasn't used his many media appearances to dispel those stories.

Very rare to hear direct dissent from the players but you'd expect a lot more open support if they were happy.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Stooperman (IP Logged)
01 March, 2018 11:16
Quote:
DOK
If we lose then I don't think it it'll make much difference. I think the club is going to go through a big soul search/review before the London Irish game (I'm assuming the Sarries game is a given (loss) ).I think that's where JK's remark about getting Bath out the way comes from. When they can get off the treadmill of trying to pick up the players and prepare for the next game, then maybe they can step back and attempt to regroup and refocus. But I don't think they're expecting much different except a bit of pride from playing Bath.

I think losses to Bath and Sarries are quite likely. Looking at the other teams fixtures, if Worcester can beat Tigers at home (and they have already beaten them once this season), and Saints win their home game against Sharks, we could be 11th depending on whther we can pick up a bonus point or two. The likelehood is we will be 10th or 11th with four games to go.

The Irish game needs to be a confident five point performance to try to get some belief back, if we get nervous or edgy we could be in trouble. Luckily, we are pretty much safe from the drop for this season.

 
Re: Controversial but....
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
01 March, 2018 12:43
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
One possibility is that the board believed that Quins have suffered badly with injuries, using our last summer signings as an example. A couple of games lost that could easily have been won, which leave us nearer the bottom than the top. They may believe that JK had a 3 year plan which he managed to keep to, all things considered. They may have spoken to the players too, for all we know. It may be that they have lined up all manner of support, as well as lining up a few contract non-renewals. They may even have looked at factors that we haven't considered, and decided that taking everything into consideration, JK is doing a fine job.
Any or all of these are possible.

If the board believe any of that I will be even more worried about the board than I am about the coaches.

He's doing okay because we almost won games?

He has a three year plan but they didn't give him a three year contract?

They've spoken to the players who have recently started voicing discontent in some quarters?

I'm sorry I just don't believe any of that as explaining why we've renewed contracts midway through a hugely disappointing season.

Of course there are reasons we might not know about, but aren't you the one who is always so keen to take things at face value? Or does that not work when face value suggests we're just taking the budget option.

Ok, you're right. Your assessment is the only possible scenario. Time will doubtless prove it.

I mean...I've literally accepted that there could be scenarios that we don't know about. So not really sure what you're talking about.

But of the scenarios you raised I just said why I didn't think they were realistic.

Like I said, time will tell.

We could still finish 4th and win the league. Nobody can argue with me because time will tell.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
01 March, 2018 14:02
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Scaramouche
Have any players actually expressed dissent with the management?
Serious question because it would be very unusual. If they did somebody would surely point out that there are two sides to a Player/Coach relationship.

Not openly or obviously but Marler has talked about needing change, Ugo talked about some of the players not being happy about the contract extensions and Care hasn't used his many media appearances to dispel those stories.

Very rare to hear direct dissent from the players but you'd expect a lot more open support if they were happy.

Visser, Ward, Flats... All positive response JK and the coaches.

 
Re: Controversial but....
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
01 March, 2018 15:42
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Scaramouche
Have any players actually expressed dissent with the management?
Serious question because it would be very unusual. If they did somebody would surely point out that there are two sides to a Player/Coach relationship.

Not openly or obviously but Marler has talked about needing change, Ugo talked about some of the players not being happy about the contract extensions and Care hasn't used his many media appearances to dispel those stories.

Very rare to hear direct dissent from the players but you'd expect a lot more open support if they were happy.

Visser, Ward, Flats... All positive response JK and the coaches.

Flats basically retracted that didn't he?

Even so it's hardly unanimous is it?

In any case the main concern recently has been that performances don't look like a team backing up their coaches. If they turn performances around that would be the biggest endorsement of the current setup.

 
Re: Controversial but....
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
01 March, 2018 16:49
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Scaramouche
Have any players actually expressed dissent with the management?
Serious question because it would be very unusual. If they did somebody would surely point out that there are two sides to a Player/Coach relationship.

Not openly or obviously but Marler has talked about needing change, Ugo talked about some of the players not being happy about the contract extensions and Care hasn't used his many media appearances to dispel those stories.

Very rare to hear direct dissent from the players but you'd expect a lot more open support if they were happy.

Visser, Ward, Flats... All positive response JK and the coaches.

Flats basically retracted that didn't he?

Even so it's hardly unanimous is it?

In any case the main concern recently has been that performances don't look like a team backing up their coaches. If they turn performances around that would be the biggest endorsement of the current setup.

It's not unanimous either way.

 
Re: Controversial but....
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
01 March, 2018 16:53
Quote:
DOK
If we lose then I don't think it it'll make much difference. I think the club is going to go through a big soul search/review the London Irish game.

What gives you the impression? I think he's just saying let's get it out the way then we get 2 weeks off and the internationals back.


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