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Blackadder: Players not listening
DOK. (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 12:14
This was interesting.

Given the two clubs are in much the same shtook, I thought this was interesting regarding Bath. It's easy to see this possibly applying to Harlequins. Certainly I've been banging on for a while about brain dead penalties, whereas yesterday they seemed more like "normal" penalties.

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
blucherquin (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 12:16
Saw that and thought exactly the same

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 12:27
It's an interesting one, and obviously if the players are genuinely not listening on a regular basis then there's not a lot a DOR or any of their coaches can do.

However if has got to that point, then you have to question whether they will ever listen to the DOR, and if not then the DOR probably isn't the right person for the job, considering a club is never going to replace all of the players.

It's also the case that players may not listen because are are ill-disciplined little toe-rags, or it might be because they don't respect what is being said in the first place.

Either way it's not good if and when you get to that stage. As many on here have said, the coaches won't be telling the players to do some of the stupid stuff they've been doing, but if they can't stop them doing it then that's when a change is required.

As for Blackadder, it really hasn't been great for him since taking over. He has improved them, but you'd expect better considering their squad really. I think it would be a massive failure if he doesn't get them into the top 6.

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 12:31
Teams lacking in confidence or trying too hard to get back to winning ways often over-egg a situation and penalties and yellow cards flow - trying too hard. Hopefully this result will show what needs to be done (albeit with more precision next time) but we have been here before.

Players and coaches need to take this into the next game - Sarries...

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
Safri-quin (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 12:38
At the Quinssa Nick Easter evening, he alluded to similar issue, and had said it was on him & other coaches to find ways to stop players going 'off script'.

At training & in the build up to matches - the strategy is agreed, the team practice some set moves/specifc tactics etc. Seems that there is also a reliance on some of the Senior Players (Leaders) to help steer ship during match day, but it seems that whilst probably not 'wilfully ignoring' the plan, in the heat of play, sometimes tactics go out window and there are moments of 'going off piste'...

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
DOK. (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 13:18
I'm not even sure it needs be deliberate ignoring by the players. Nick Easter indicated it was the senior players he found hardest to change because under pressure they reverted to old tried and trusted ways, which interfered with what the rest of the team were supposed to be doing, and then no-one knew what they were supposed to be doing - old or new.

As mentioned above, with players trying too hard they try the risky offload, it's intercepted and now they're 7 points further down. They crash into defences without waiting for support to catch up - penalty. They try and influence rucks by lying there just that bit longer - penalty. They crash into the side of a maul without going through the gate - penalty. Their motives are for the best but their actions let the team down, and that just increases the pressure because nothing seems to be working.

I thought yesterday we had a script and we stuck to it. Yes, Visser's try was a moment of brilliance, but even that is the job he's there for.

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
Dibden (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 13:39
The players are paid professionals.They are paid to carry out the instructions of the coaches (bosses)If they fail to do so they are subject to discipline.
However as with any organisation the responsibility for performance lies with the bosses(coaches!
Crap bosses@#$%&performance

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 14:47
They (coaches and players) share responsibility, but if they continually get it wrong, one has to question the coaching process; however, we have, throughout the season, had good moments - few admittedly - that show we do have the gumption but lack consistency. That's what the coaches should be concentrating on.

Why is this happening? Is their message not getting through or being misunderstood - sounds like this is part of the problem (DOK/Easter quote, above). Is the constant player churn (injuries, suspensions, international call ups - see [www.rugbynetwork.net]) and consequent creation of multiple partnerships (9-10, 10-12-13, 8-9, 1-2-3 and 4-5 etc) making the message harder to get through? Our lot haven't played together enough this and previous seasons to make effective combinations: selection is part of this too.

The whole club has much work to do: D-/D should be capable of attaining a B/B+

Stewards are very good though!(Sm100)

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
DOK. (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 14:47
Quote:
Dibden
The players are paid professionals.They are paid to carry out the instructions of the coaches (bosses)If they fail to do so they are subject to discipline.
However as with any organisation the responsibility for performance lies with the bosses(coaches!
Rubbish bosses rubbish performance

Every forward pass, every dropped ball, every kick that doesn't find touch is the bosses responsibility? But those bosses have bosses. So isn't it bosses * 2 responsibility? But the pyramid goes up until there's just the owner, Duncan Saville. Let's blame him. Serves him right for swanning around in Bermuda while we have snow on the ground! smiling smiley

And weren't these the same bosses when we beat Saracens. Rubbish bosses, excellent performance?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2018 14:49 by DOK.

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 14:54
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
They (coaches and players) share responsibility, but if they continually get it wrong, one has to question the coaching process; however, we have, throughout the season, had good moments - few admittedly - that show we do have the gumption but lack consistency. That's what the coaches should be concentrating on.
Why is this happening? Is their message not getting through or being misunderstood - sounds like this is part of the problem (DOK/Easter quote, above). Is the constant player churn (injuries, suspensions, international call ups - see [www.rugbynetwork.net]) and consequent creation of multiple partnerships (9-10, 10-12-13, 8-9, 1-2-3 and 4-5 etc) making the message harder to get through? Our lot haven't played together enough this and previous seasons to make effective combinations: selection is part of this too.

The whole club has much work to do: D-/D should be capable of attaining a B/B+

Stewards are very good though!(Sm100)

I think you're absolutely right that it's a combination of issues, and of course nobody can (or nobody should) point to JK and say it's 100% all his fault.

The coaches need to take responsibility, and the players absolutely have to take responsibility, and the issue of injuries/call ups is an issue as well.

I would say though that these are all problems that it is JK's job to mitigate. He is responsible for making sure the coaches are doing their job properly, and he is responsible for ensuring that the players take that on board (or get dropped/moved on). I also think that a better coached team deals better with injuries and call ups as everyone who has to slot into the team knows what they are doing.

So whilst there is definitely a shared responsibility, ultimately the DOR does need to carry the can if things aren't going well, particularly if they're not going well and he doesn't change very much which was appeared the case with JK.

Let's just hope yesterday was a sign of things to come rather than another flash in the pan.

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
DOK. (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 15:07
Well, I imagine it goes something like this. The coach says something like "these people tend to flood the breakdown, so if we use less people but try and get a turn over, there will be holes out wide, pass the ball quickly down the line and exploit that"

He doesn't say to the scrum half "dither for a moment while you decide to go left or right".
He doesn't say "Go left" or "Go right" because obviously it depends on circumstances.
He doesn't tell the fly half "Now use a huge cut out pass that the opposition can easily intercept to pass it". He leaves it to the fly half to decide whether to pass it conventionally or not.
He doesn't tell the scrum half "You need a diving pass", he leaves that up to the scrum half.
Nor does he explicitly say what to do when the exploit occurs - just exploit it!
So that's the players responsibility, if they make a mistake in the execution of a sensible plan.

If his marvellous plan results in us getting mullered at the breakdown, and no turn overs because they always win it, that's his responsibility not the players.

What I'd like is if it didn't then take us till half time to make the necessary adjustments!

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
Dibden (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 15:23
Sorry when I wrote rubbish bosses rubbish performance I meant this as a general comment applicable to any organisation.It was not meant to be a specific comment aimed at Quins.

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
DOK. (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 15:30
Ah well I'd agree with that. Mr Trump is a fine example!

 
Re: Blackadder: Players not listening
Mayor West (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 18:38
DOK for DOR!
A case of it being difficult to teach an old dog new tricks perhaps.


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