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Kingston
jonf (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 20:43
It seems Quins wants to keep him even if we are dire, there are other options and Kingston does not want to seem to even face the fans.

Has anyone any idea why he is still in post? Ellis has no rugby experience or any apparent idea (the we are members and not season ticket holders has to go down in history on having no idea how to have anything to do with a sports club) but even he must now see it is impacting the bottom line.

I have no idea how the paying fan can now do anything as Ellis is not apparently capable but can anyone give any ideas how a team with great players can move forward?

 
Re: Kingston
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 21:09
No rugby justification for him being in charge anymore for me. Would like to see an argument against that because I can't see what he offers at all.

It looks to me that if he stays it's not for rugby reasons.

 
Re: Kingston
07 April, 2018 21:13
He is obviously at home now considering his future, let’s leave him in peace can we?? We ALL know how dire that was!

 
Re: Kingston
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 21:15
I meant to add a question in my post.

Does anybody now genuinely think JK is the right person to take us forward?

 
Re: Kingston
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 21:16
Quote:
talkshowhost86
I meant to add a question in my post.
Does anybody now genuinely think JK is the right person to take us forward?

Yes. I think he has a poor coaching team. But I do believe he's made some astute signings, and I don't heap every ounce of blame on the man. You don't agree, but that's my take on it.

 
Re: Kingston
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 21:25
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
I meant to add a question in my post.
Does anybody now genuinely think JK is the right person to take us forward?

Yes. I think he has a poor coaching team. But I do believe he's made some astute signings, and I don't heap every ounce of blame on the man. You don't agree, but that's my take on it.

Agree about the astute signings.

However in many ways for me that makes it worse as he's strengthened the squad and we're now much worse as a team.

He's not solely to blame at all. But he is ultimately responsible.

 
Re: Kingston
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 21:30
Agree with that

 
Re: Kingston
jonf (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 21:42
What signings are these? Our new centre can’t play for 40 minutes then has 3 months off.

 
Re: Kingston
Cookie (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 21:45
The DoR is as responsible for the coaches as the signings. As I've always said, Mapletoft, Osborne etc equally as culpable, but ultimately this is JK's responsibikity.

Same scenario played out at Northampton. Dorian West was arguably more of the problem than Mallinder. The latter got sacked but eventually West was identified as equally culpable and was dismissed.

I do think JK needs to go, but others need to go with him.

 
Re: Kingston
Scamble (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 22:52
I feel sorry for Kingston, I really do. Hes a good man who, yet again, has been thrown in at the deep end in a job hes not suited to. All because Quins plan A failed.

 
Re: Kingston
PR54 (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 23:05
I honestly think this is a relatively simple and basic leadership issue.

The CEO knows that the 'business' relies on people being wiling to to pay to watch rugby. He has just extended JK's contract and so it's reasonable to asume he believes JK can 'bring in the crowds' by putting on a good show.

I'm most surprised by the 'radio silence' from JK. In business, someone in his shoes (with results going against him) would need to show his bosses that a) he understands the problem and b) that he is doing something about it.

By the lack of visible, decisive actions, it's easy to believe that one or both of these is not the case.

I honestly don't know if JK is a genius who is unwilling / unable / too weak or unempowered to make the required changes, or if he is out of his depth and has no idea what do do.

John - if you read this, I urge you to take decisive and immediate action if you believe you know where the problems lie. You need to exert your leadership and fix the issue if you know what it is.

If you truly don't know how to solve it, I think you should step aside and suggest to Mr Ellis that he finds someone who can.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2018 23:22 by PR54.

 
Re: Kingston
kevin (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 23:20
Quote:
Scamble
I feel sorry for Kingston, I really do. Hes a good man who, yet again, has been thrown in at the deep end in a job hes not suited to. All because Quins plan A failed.
He was not thrown into it!

 
Re: Kingston
blucherquin (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 07:15
Quote:
jonf
What signings are these? Our new centre can’t play for 40 minutes then has 3 months off.

Why with all the perfectly sensible ways we have of slagging off the team and coaches do you pick someone that got concussed? How is that a reflection on his signing.?

 
Re: Kingston
SiBolton (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 07:17
I think the problems run far deeper than JK, will getting rid of JK fix all the problems? I doubt it.
We have been in decline for a good few years, and that has to be to do with the coaching set up and people feeling too comfortable. But yesterday was a new low, we played better rugby in the relegation season!
Think JK has made some great signings and was also the best head coach we have had,but then even after 12/13 we started detonating,and maybe DOR is a job to far. But have said for ages, we are making do with the money and resources we have and that doesnt cut it.

If someone genuinely knows an alternative ie names to fill positions great, would like to see changes, but think the first changes need to be made in the coaching set up

 
Re: Kingston
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 07:47
Quote KevT from another thread....

The finger now points at the board. They havent addressed the coaching situation. They supposedly conducted a worldwide search which resulted in the current regime. If culture is the issue then this comes from the very top of the club. They renewed the contracts of the coaching team.

I recall when David Ellis first came in & his changes resulted in a malaise throughout the admin section of the club. Said then that if this continues & spreads to the playing side then were in deep deep trouble. That is exactly where we are now.

Its a mess off the field & now on it. Is there anyone at this club big enough, man enough, sensible enough, & experienced enough, to be able to sort this out?

 
Re: Kingston
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 07:52
Any regrets about the player power that denied Lancaster the opportunity?

By all accounts everyone in the Leinster set up think the guy is a star and quality details man and coach also great with developing the Academy talent.

Can't see how he wouldn't have been better than what you've ended up with plus I doubt Easter wold have walked into a coaching role he had no suitability for.

A point could be made that Lancaster is thriving as a head coach but not DoR so maybe he wasn't the solution?

 
Re: Kingston
Scrumhead (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 08:35
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
I meant to add a question in my post.
Does anybody now genuinely think JK is the right person to take us forward?

Yes. I think he has a poor coaching team. But I do believe he's made some astute signings, and I don't heap every ounce of blame on the man. You don't agree, but that's my take on it.

Agree about the astute signings.

However in many ways for me that makes it worse as he's strengthened the squad and we're now much worse as a team.

He's not solely to blame at all. But he is ultimately responsible.

100% this. Kingston deserves credit for some decent signings. However, we are still talking about decent squad players rather than him transforming our first XV. I cant give him any credit for Smith as I dont believe it was ever intended for him to be in the first team picture. The fact that Smith has taken to first team rugby like a duck to water doesnt excuse the fact that we went in to the season under-resourced at 10 and ended up relying on a kid with no senior level experienced making the step-up. It worked out because of Smiths talent, not because of Kingston.

Ultimately the DOR is responsible for all rugby matters so when were playing this poorly this often, the buck has to stop with him.

Marler and now Roberts have publicly talked about a need to change the culture and to me that means getting rid of the old boys network. Kingston, Mapletoft and Easter in particular need to go. I dont really know what Rowntree is doing either? With a number of international forwards, particularly in the front and back row positions, our scrum should be way more of a weapon than it is. As much as I like Adam Jones, hes one of the worst culprits for kicking a ball around in the warm-ups and I wonder if that kind of casual attitude has bigger consequences.

Id take Jim Mallinder right now and see if we can use the ABs agreement to bring in some coaches to shake it up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2018 09:15 by Scrumhead.

 
Re: Kingston
Cookie (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 09:11
Please, not the 'who's out there debate again. Every time this gets raised it gets shot down very quickly and very easily.

 
Re: Kingston
anddon83 (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 09:18
Quote:
SiBolton
If someone genuinely knows an alternative ie names to fill positions great, would like to see changes, but think the first changes need to be made in the coaching set up

Id love to see someone like Milton Haig current Georgia head coach come in, sadly its unlikely until after RWC19 - he used to play in West London with Richmond in the 80s

Also like to see Ben Ryan come in as maybe an attack/skills coach could probably even be head coach. He was DoR at Newbury when they got promoted to what is now the Championship before his golden sevens coaching career. As far as Im aware he is available currently.

 
Re: Kingston
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 09:33
There is always someone available. Just because people are currently in work does not mean they are not available. Just because you want change, does not mean you have to know what the answer is, that is the job of the club.

As for Lancaster, I would put him in the same category as JK, a very good coach, not a DOR though,

 
Re: Kingston
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 09:44
If he's still in charge by the next game it'll show that Ellis doesn't care about the rugby side of the club. There simply isn't any reason from a results or performance perspective to keep him on.

 
Re: Kingston
Cookie (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 09:44
Quote:
talkshowhost86
If he's still in charge by the next game it'll show that Ellis doesn't care about the rugby side of the club. There simply isn't any reason from a results or performance perspective to keep him on.

Agreed. But this makes Ellis culpable for paying up his contract after renewing him when we were already sliding to our worst finish since relegation. Ellis has really dug himself a hole.

 
Re: Kingston
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 09:50
If he cares about the rugby side or not, it will cause him some concern if we are relegated next season and spend five years out the prem. That will do his business wonders!!!

 
Re: Kingston
Chuckquin (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 10:26
As posted on another thread: -

I am not travelling 3 hours to watch Quins get hammered again. Unless there are major coaching changes before the membership renewal date I am not going to waste any more money on this outfit. They contrive to be so much less than the sum of the parts it's extraordinarily disappointing and the club doesn't seem to understand that winning most home games is a minimum requirement for people to be proud of the club they support. I can't say that at the moment, they are embarrassing.

i.e. I don't think Ellis gives a monkeys about rugby, he just cares about cashflow. What he continues to fail to grasp is that the supports give financial support and require a return - a winning team, a of which to be proud

 
Re: Kingston
Dave L (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 11:26
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
talkshowhost86
If he's still in charge by the next game it'll show that Ellis doesn't care about the rugby side of the club. There simply isn't any reason from a results or performance perspective to keep him on.

Agreed. But this makes Ellis culpable for paying up his contract after renewing him when we were already sliding to our worst finish since relegation. Ellis has really dug himself a hole.

Exactly. The abjectness of the performances seems to have accelerated since said contracts were signed. On Ellis, he just strikes me as a pleasant but naive guy.

 
Re: Kingston
johnlid (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 12:05
Quote:
Chuckquin
As posted on another thread: -
I am not travelling 3 hours to watch Quins get hammered again. Unless there are major coaching changes before the membership renewal date I am not going to waste any more money on this outfit. They contrive to be so much less than the sum of the parts it's extraordinarily disappointing and the club doesn't seem to understand that winning most home games is a minimum requirement for people to be proud of the club they support. I can't say that at the moment, they are embarrassing.

i.e. I don't think Ellis gives a monkeys about rugby, he just cares about cashflow. What he continues to fail to grasp is that the supports give financial support and require a return - a winning team, a of which to be proud

We travel 90 minutes each way and are also thinking about not renewing our memberships. Why pay loads of money to watch rubbish. Mind you, we could always support the away team, then we'd be supporting a team that always wins!

 
Re: Kingston
MrOther (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 12:10
Quote:
johnlid
Quote:
Chuckquin
As posted on another thread: -
I am not travelling 3 hours to watch Quins get hammered again. Unless there are major coaching changes before the membership renewal date I am not going to waste any more money on this outfit. They contrive to be so much less than the sum of the parts it's extraordinarily disappointing and the club doesn't seem to understand that winning most home games is a minimum requirement for people to be proud of the club they support. I can't say that at the moment, they are embarrassing.

i.e. I don't think Ellis gives a monkeys about rugby, he just cares about cashflow. What he continues to fail to grasp is that the supports give financial support and require a return - a winning team, a of which to be proud

We travel 90 minutes each way and are also thinking about not renewing our memberships. Why pay loads of money to watch rubbish. Mind you, we could always support the away team, then we'd be supporting a team that always wins!

Cost you a fortune in away team blazers though, wouldn't it?

 
Re: Kingston
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 12:16
Someone being available doesn't automatically mean they would take the job anyway.

 
Re: Kingston
Cookie (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 13:23
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Someone being available doesn't automatically mean they would take the job anyway.

Yeah, lets just not bother even trying. You think Chris Boyd would go to Saints but not Quins? Or Ackerman to Gloucester but not Quins? Or Solomons at Worcester?


To do nothing would be worse than assuming it wasnt worth trying. There is always a solution.

 
Re: Kingston
Scamble (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 13:26
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Someone being available doesn't automatically mean they would take the job anyway.

Indeed. Lets not forget Wayne Smith was available, we tried to get him and failed. Hence the current situation.

(Retreats to have a sit down after agreeing with QK)

 
Re: Kingston
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 13:39
I wonder how hard we tried to get him??

 
Re: Kingston
Rocker (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 14:03
Quote:
Chuckquin
I don't think Ellis gives a monkeys about rugby, he just cares about cashflow. What he continues to fail to grasp is that the supports give financial support and require a return - a winning team, a of which to be proud

This is what I was saying to my wife after yesterdays match. I'm not really sure he's yet grasped that the rugby is the core of the business, everything else is add on bits. The major product is on the pitch. Ellis seems to have the view that there are always going ot be lots of fans who will buy season tickets, even if lots of the current ones get peeved and leave. Is that really going to happen with a team in freefall and in danger of relegation? It isn't much fun coming to watch your team get a hammering at every home game.

We've decidedc not to renew 3 of our 4 for my wife and kids, I'm only 50/50 at the moment for next year, after 14 years as a season ticket holder!

 
Re: Kingston
Scamble (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 14:04
By all accounts it was at the expense of any other candidates....

I always found his comments in this article a little odd:

[www.standard.co.uk]

 
Re: Kingston
Rocker (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 14:07
Maybe he was alluding to something that became clear from Quins side?

 
Re: Kingston
Scamble (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 14:08
Indeed....makes you wonder

 
Re: Kingston
Uncle Arthur (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 15:13

 
Re: Kingston
DOK (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 15:19
Can safely say olliemundayrowe would not last long on this board, however apt his sentiments! smiling smiley

 
Re: Kingston
Oldkingcole (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 16:12
If or when Kingston goes and please when, who's to say Ellis won't go for the easy option and promote one of the other coaches. When it's done I just hope it's a clean sweep and they all go. Sorry Nick

 
Re: Kingston
DOK (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 17:03
Well of the current coaches, I also can't see one who definitely should keep his place.

Attack Coach - Nick Evans.
Hasn't been able to get us out our "pass it down the line until the last man gets scragged" approach to attacking. And when we do attack, for God's sake send some folk to support the man with the ball instead of him lying on the ground wrestling tacklers until the cavalry turn up two to four seconds later. No penetration! We can huff and puff for hours throwing the ball around and still not get over the gain line.

Defence Coach - Nick Easter
Said at the start of the season he was having trouble getting people to adapt. Result is we ship an average of three tries per game. Recent signs of green shoots of recovery. We don't compete enough at the breakdown, we don't slow the ball down enough, we don't regroup fast enough knowing what to do. Yesterday even the simplest of Irish standard pick and go attacks made huge yardage upfield.

Scrum Coach - Rowntree/Jones
I stand by my assertion John Kingston was a better scrum coach than either of these. He did more with less talent at his disposal. Remember the days when we talked about the rolling maul TOB? Remember when we could throw straight into a line out? When we could stop a rolling maul before it began without giving away stupid penalties? We have two England props playing together, why can't we control the scrums?

Skills Coach - Colin Osborne
Sorry, what?

Head Coach - Mark Mapletoft
And responsible for the performance (good or bad) of all these coaches is Mark Mapletoft.

DOR - JK
Responsible for ensuring all the above do their jobs either by managing himself or through MM.

At Xmas, we seemed to be on track for a possible top four place but a guaranteed top 6. Since then we've fallen off to where bottom three looks more likely. Bottom line - it's not good enough.

Now all these coaches have been huge servants of the club. Invested their time and effort in to try and make a success of it. I'm sure they're all deeply hurting as a result of Saturday. But clearly the current set up is not working. We can tinker round the edges, we can cut a little deeper or we can do root and branch reform.

It would be interesting to see what a (competent) outsider makes of our coaching and our coaches.

 
Re: Kingston
jonf (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 17:44
Kingston will stay. Ellis wont say anyhing, he focuses on the money side...and has been said already he seems not to understand a successful team brings in money.

It is a shame we dont have a Chief exec who seems to care about what happens on the pitch. He much prefers to want to build a stadium and get it on his CV rather than understand we need a winning team. Perhaps he needs to look at Tigers. Get a good coach, get a winning team and then build a bigger stadium. Tigers saw they were failing and sorted it. Ellis would rather extend a losing DoRs contract as its easier rather than do something.

A sad time for a great team. We would never be in this state with Mark Evans.

 
Re: Kingston
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 17:49
Yes but a team playing in the Championship for 5 years will scupper his business plans so maybe he should care what happens on the pitch!!

 
Re: Kingston
jonf (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 17:52
Yes he should but he has always been invisible and does not appear to want to make a tough decision.

We need the owner to get a grip.

 
Re: Kingston
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 18:21
Quote:
jonf
We would never be in this state with Mark Evans.

Well at least we've not been relegated under Ellis yet.

 
Re: Kingston
jonf (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 18:28
Very true, give Ellis another season...

 
Re: Kingston
Bucksquin (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 18:45
Bring back Mark Evans?

 
Re: Kingston
kevin (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 19:42
Quote:
Bucksquin
Bring back Mark Evans?
#
Business acumen and knows rugby inside out, on and off the pitch.

 
Re: Kingston
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 07:21
Players not putting in the effort to get to rucks and support ball carriers is a real problem and difficult to understand in a professional team. Most of the guys have been playing for years since school and the basics dont change...so why cant they be bothered?

I appreciate there is nothin* to play for this season but personal pride and collective pride just seems to be missing. With players leaving I was surprised to see some of them on the field on Saturday - Gray & Matthews etc.

Also the defensive pattern that we were so proud of that was instilled by Deano has slowly evaporated and this also requires effort from the players. Why has this gone and why are they unwilling to make the effort.

If the senior players are dissatisfied why as supposed leaders are they not using their influence to change attitudes in a way 5hat you hear the Tigers seniors set their own standards.

 
Re: Kingston
johnlid (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 08:13
Quote:
Bucksquin
Bring back Mark Evans?

You mean the man in charge when we got relegated and put JK in charge of the team? The only good things he did were to appoint Deano and leave

 
Re: Kingston
DazzaS (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:16
I think JK is a decent guy. He wants to see the team do well. He is a class coach.

I just do not think he is cut out to be a DoR at this level. Maybe some time in lower leagues to build experience would have been better for him.

Nick Easter and Nick Evans have coaching experience at Wimbledon. But they are a Divison 2 South side and jumping fromt them to Premiership is a bit of a big promotion and once again more experience in Championship or Divison 1 would have been better first.


This smacks of getting cheaper (than normal going rate coaches) to prevent the losses growing more than they already are. The only really experience coach we got in was Graham Rowntree and I do not think our forwards have been effective this season.

As for the running of the club as a buisness side. Who remembers in 2012-2013 David Ellis had these charts and graphs projecting we will be in the black by now an how we was going to do it. Even had a cautionary drawing for a north stand only development.

The club is the second highest revenue I beleive at 19 million, second only to Wasps. I think this was areported in the Rugby Paper and on the company accounts. This amount of revenue has risen further than our player wage bill. So where is the money going. We have bigger TV money from BT Sport and sponsors and kit supplier. So where is the money going.

It is starting to feel like a club being badly run on both playing and non playing side.


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