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An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Safri-quin (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:02
I know this will get the pitchfork brigade even further inflamed but here goes

I am a long term member/season ticket holder/supporter who has been less than impressed with the slide I see before my eyes, culminating in that shower of sh*t on Saturday, however... (and this is all supposition):

Maybe just maybe,there are other issues we are all unaware of within the playing dept...

Maybe, just maybe, JK presented a plan that David Ellis & Board have bought into...

Maybe, just maybe, within this plan it has been accepted that you need to break a few eggs to make an omlette

Maybe just maybe this plan is more than a kneejerk, get results quickly, but paper over the cracks idea

Maybe, just maybe, a series of deliverables, not known to us (and unlikely to be communicated) show in the view of the Board, JK & team are delivering, hence the contract extensions...

Maybe, just maybe, the 'COS' scientific experiment approach to managing a team has broken the model...

Maybe just maybe some of the Individuals in the TEAM, are battling to understand its not all about their singular brilliance on matchday...

Maybe, just maybe the 'professional' players decided to send a message on Saturday


or

Maybe just maybe I know nothing (highly likely) and the Mgt to a tee are all useless, clueless, inept, money grabbing, liars, as a collective planning to ensure that HFC is defunct in xxx period of time, and the only reason Duncan Saville has invested upwards of £ 20 million in the club is to after 17 years, finally build that lovely block of flats on a piece next to the A316

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Safri-quin (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:11
p.s. I am not quite sure at this moment in time how becoming a defensively porous, slow witted, penalty factory, with little to no basic handling skills, is achieving this, but you never know...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2018 09:12 by Safri-quin.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
09 April, 2018 09:26
http://admin.umbrella.class-media.co.uk/system/photos/715/full_width/furymob.jpg

Do go on...

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Uncle Arthur (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:34
Maybe just maybe Marland Yarde knew something after all!

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:35
Way too many maybe's there! If the plan is to see how far we can get playing National One standard Rugby then its working. Dont think this current coaching team & CEO are capable of turning this slide to mediocrity & beyond around. Its been going on for too long & is too deep rooted.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Dave L (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:37
I'd buy more of that if performances hadn't been so markedly poor since the JK and team new contracts announcement.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:45
It is easy to consider an alternate reality where there is essentially a power struggle in the camp between a more pragmatic approach led by the coaches and players railing against this.

However, this is where leadership comes in. JK needs to stop picking the players that don't do the job asked of them? He needs to call them out, publically if need be,

I also feel that two seasons is quite a long time to see only decline - we should see some improvement, it's worse this year than last and we thought last year was bad, because JK was changing things....

Take defence - Easter has been in charge of this for two seasons, now introducing new systems takes time to bed in, but it is also a system, everyone should now know and we should see steady improvement. We don't.

We don't create - we woefully ship the ball side to side, or expect a player to create something on their own - we never look like threatening in attack terms, we can't build pressure as our set piece is too poor, when we do build pressure we relieve it with idiotic penalities.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
johnlid (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:45
If the managers of a company makes it sell a poor product and upset its customers deliberately then it wants to go out of business and realise the assets. Then it can do so and not look too much like asset strippers.

If it's not doing it deliberately then it's incompetent and should be replaced.

No other explanation is possible......

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Teddington Taff (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:54
Maybe.... Some of what you say is right.

Maybe... does have a vision and knows what needs to be done to get there.

So maybe.... there needs to be a rethink about attack and defensive coaching.

Maybe... Lets get rid of players like Danny Care. I'd like to see his statistics for the number of times he waves his hands in the air appealing to the referee (of the day). Remember the days of Steve So'oialo when we used to call him "So Slow". DC has become that person. Forget the odd moments of brilliance for the majority of the time he's been awful.

So maybe - as another thread suggest - the players need to take a long hard look too.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
T-Bone (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 09:58
What is the CoS scientific experiment approach?

I think a lot of supporters would accept a bad season or bad run if we were clearly changing our style, culture, squad, etc. But I see no signs of that. JK made a big deal of signing some players who would be around during international periods, and it's not his fault they've largely been unavailable, but I'm not sure those really demonstrate some master plan which will take time to come good.

The fact that after every loss he appears at a loss to explain it makes me think there is no grand plan

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Mayor West (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 10:26
I haven't checked but has our form dipped even further straight after the contract renewals were announced. If so this must be significant. There seemed to be a fair bit of "heated discussions" between some of the players on Saturday . I was talking to the chap next to me on Saturday and he was disappointed that he had come to a one off game and had to watch such a dismal performance . He said they didn't look like they had played together before and as I looked at who was playing I realised that was true of our second row, back row and centres. Surely during training they must have a system whereby they all know what to do whoever is playing.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 10:27
Id go a bit more simple.

JK and the coaches are the cheaper option. We are trying to muddle through until we are able to build this new Stoop.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Mr_B (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 10:34
I would agree with JK generally that our squad as a whole is probably one of the strongest we have had in years, one of the reasons I find our performance being so poor so frustrating and I don't buy the injuries thing because all other teams have had similar problems.

I don't think the Club senior management have some hidden agenda to sell off the ground and move or the owner propping up the club to the tune of £20M over the years just to build some flats.

I don't think the blame lands solely at JK's feet and it is split between players and coaches and club mgt.

I do think that as Easter proclaimed a while back players weren't buying into the new defensive strategy and that caused issues (public comment last year I think) then there has to be something wrong between players and coaches.

I do think that as Marler has come out publicly stating it is too cosy with coaches promoted from within with no new ideas or experience, that the fans are all saying the same thing and that the results are proving there is an issue there.

I do believe that even if JK not directly responsible for the teams performance on the pitch, that he is indirectly responsible and that as DOR he ultimately has to make the decision when players or coaches have to be changed/reprimanded or whatever to get the performance up. Is he doing it, I don't know but results suggest not in which case get someone in who can make that change sooner rather than later.

Rewarding this coaching team with new contracts with the performance as poor as it is beggars belief! The fact senior club mgt have done that suggests they approve of the set up and strategy, this smacks to me of the same decision we took just before relegation when we were looking to do just enough to survive managing the costs of ground development vs investing in the team to move it forward.

There is no one person responsible for this or to change here to fix things and it is more of a mindset from top down, however a new DOR would be a bloody good start.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 11:16
Quote:
Safri-quin
I know this will get the pitchfork brigade even further inflamed but here goes
I am a long term member/season ticket holder/supporter who has been less than impressed with the slide I see before my eyes, culminating in that shower of sh*t on Saturday, however... (and this is all supposition):

Maybe just maybe,there are other issues we are all unaware of within the playing dept...

Maybe, just maybe, JK presented a plan that David Ellis & Board have bought into...

Maybe, just maybe, within this plan it has been accepted that you need to break a few eggs to make an omlette

Maybe just maybe this plan is more than a kneejerk, get results quickly, but paper over the cracks idea

Maybe, just maybe, a series of deliverables, not known to us (and unlikely to be communicated) show in the view of the Board, JK & team are delivering, hence the contract extensions...

Maybe, just maybe, the 'COS' scientific experiment approach to managing a team has broken the model...

Maybe just maybe some of the Individuals in the TEAM, are battling to understand its not all about their singular brilliance on matchday...

Maybe, just maybe the 'professional' players decided to send a message on Saturday


or

Maybe just maybe I know nothing (highly likely) and the Mgt to a tee are all useless, clueless, inept, money grabbing, liars, as a collective planning to ensure that HFC is defunct in xxx period of time, and the only reason Duncan Saville has invested upwards of £ 20 million in the club is to after 17 years, finally build that lovely block of flats on a piece next to the A316

None of it sounds implausible.

I'd add another:

Maybe, there is a problem in the coaching setup that JK is unable to fix, due to others making decisions above his head? IF Joe really was chasing after Ellis, why not have it our with JK instead? Could Joe be unhappy with Easter/Rowntree/Mapletoft/Evans (delete as appropriate)? Or could it be that JK wants/doesn't want to keep certain players at contract renewal, due to decisions further up the food chain?

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Bucksquin (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 11:22
Maybe, there is a problem in the coaching setup that JK is unable to fix, due to others making decisions above his head? IF Joe really was chasing after Ellis, why not have it our with JK instead? Could Joe be unhappy with Easter/Rowntree/Mapletoft/Evans (delete as appropriate)? Or could it be that JK wants/doesn't want to keep certain players at contract renewal, due to decisions further up the food chain?[/quote]

I think the "add another" is perhaps right ó but not so most of the rest. But in any event, things have now become SO bad that someone with responsibility needs to say something about it, one way or another.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 11:28
Seems to be a lot of fairly wild attempts to point the finger of blame elsewhere other than at our DOR.

As everyone has said time and time again, it cannot be JK's fault on his own, and everyone involved needs to take a long hard look at themselves. The players, the coaches, Ellis and co etc etc.

But the buck stops with the Director of Rugby. It's literally in his job title.

If he wants to get rid of coaches/players and he's not being allowed to, then he should go anyway as what's the point of having a DOR who you don't agree with?

If this is all part of some long term plan, why wasn't he given a longer term contract in the first place?

And even if it is part of a long term plan, can anyone really see what we're trying to do other than simply go backwards?

I don't know why some people seem so desperate to excuse JK and the coaches from their responsibilities. JK is Quins through and through and it's a real shame that it's not working, but the one thing that is painfully clear is that it isn't working, and if we continue on our current trajectory it could be a lot worse next season.

This squad of players shouldn't be in a battle for 11th in the table. JK is the man who is ultimately responsible for that, and I think Saturday should be the final nail in that coffin.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
DOK. (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 11:54
Well, I think if you're the DOR and go ask the board for the money to build your coaching team and they tell you you've got to work with two tyros and everyone else is just going to play musical chairs, then what do you do? Easy to say you should just walk - but DOR jobs are not two a penny and if you been with Quins as long as JK, the temptation must be to stick with the club and try and make it work.

Not saying that's what happened, I have no idea, but certainly the experiment of inexperienced attack/defence coach able to make up for that by knowing the people/club seems to have not worked.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 12:03
Quote:
DOK
Well, I think if you're the DOR and go ask the board for the money to build your coaching team and they tell you you've got to work with two tyros and everyone else is just going to play musical chairs, then what do you do? Easy to say you should just walk - but DOR jobs are not two a penny and if you been with Quins as long as JK, the temptation must be to stick with the club and try and make it work.
Not saying that's what happened, I have no idea, but certainly the experiment of inexperienced attack/defence coach able to make up for that by knowing the people/club seems to have not worked.

I don't think it's really up to JK to walk in that situation, but for the board to get someone in who can work within their parameters.

If JK is going to them repeatedly saying 'I need this' and 'I need that' then why would they renew his contract so early on?

Also none of this really explains just how poor we have been with a squad that is much better than it is showing at the moment, even if some financial constraints are in place (which is guesswork anyway which I note is allowed when it's in defence of JK).

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
HarTley Quin (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 12:08
Here's my conspiracy theory

The club was in decline before Conor left. When he did they had two choices:

1) Replace the entire coaching team and refresh things
2) Keep the team and require that a new DOR work with them

The club chose option 2 as they did when Deano was sacked. Whilst loyalty to the existing team is very laudable it was a mistake. No new DOR would come in from outside unless he could appoint his own team. There comes a time when a team needs a refresh and this was it.

In summary I'm saying the club made a mistake at that time for, arguably, understandable reasons. Surely now is the time to correct that mistake.

Just to be clear I was a season ticket holder for over 15 years. I stopped a couple of years ago because it was becoming too corporate for my liking and also TV coverage ensured that too many games were at inconvenient times for me. But I still follow the club.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
never sleep (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 12:27
Quote:
talkshowhost86
If he wants to get rid of coaches/players and he's not being allowed to, then he should go anyway as what's the point of having a DOR who you don't agree with?

I think that this is easy to say from the outside - but assume that JK has a job at Quins and based on that job has a mortgage, bills to pay, etc - then it is fair to assume that "walking away" from a job is a brave decision.
I have only once handed in my notice at work without have a new job to go to and at the time my wife was working and I had no children and I was in advance with my mortgage - so there was little risk.
If JK was to step down now, is it likely that he would step into another role any time soon? Difficult to stay. Personally, if it were me, I would stay put and just do my best in the current role (even if my best was not good enough).

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 12:51
Spoke to Joe Gray pitchside last Saturday and asked him if he was staying? He replied that it was still up in the air. oh, I said, to which he replied, "well everythings up in the air at the moment..."



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Rocker (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 14:10
Quote:
Scaramouche
to which he replied, "well everythings up in the air at the moment..."

That's interesting, but worrying.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 16:58
So maybe the players knew about JK and Marler wanted to ask Ellis why?



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 17:14
Quote:
Scaramouche
So maybe the players knew about JK and Marler wanted to ask Ellis why?

That did cross my ind but with what has been said about marler I think it is the opposite tbh

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 20:35
More likely Joe wanted to know who else of the coaches was going or if they had anyone lined up for DOR.

 
Re: An alternate,and probably unpopular view
SiBolton (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 21:32
Or maybe Joe and others didnít want JK to go, and wanted others to go
After all lots of the side coached by JK for Amlin, Premiership etc

But Iím pretty sure of one thing, we will probably never know


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