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The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
TW Quin (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 21:38
JK carries the can for 2 seasons of on field mediocrity. Jk's position was suddenly untenable to David Ellis with the realisation we were sinking like a stone and its season ticket renewal time. JK - Decent loyal Quins coach with extensive contacts and respect in the game but promoted out of his depth and comfort zone. And with awful results and likely the complete opposite experience for our internationals returning from fast Eddie.

Under David Ellis results have nosedived on and off the field.

He was presumably the executioner whilst ultimately responsible for the compensation packages and lawyers fees to be paid to Jk & Co after Ellis sanctioned the renewed coaching contracts.

The under 12's in the crowd could have told Ellis and his marketing spinners all was falling apart and it all culminated in the Irish game and the 80 minutes of the long knives.

No Eurpope top table and coffers for us next season. Never mind we will flog land and build a stadium we cannot fill.

The decline on the pitch and the cost of the much maligned corporate spin nonsense has occured under the Ellis watch.

A diliigent board will review the CEO's position and see Mr Ellis for what he presents as - a property development chancer!

Taxi for Mr Ellis please or was that his helicopter doing a practice run on Saturday?

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Chiswick Quin (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 09:13
Agree 100%

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
GP2110 (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 09:23
two or three points from me.

1. We have no idea what terms JK and co. renewed their contracts. Is it really beyond the realms of possibility that the club would insert break clauses depending on the remaining results this season? I think not. It is very common for coaches' contracts to have break clauses if targets are not met. I strongly suspect termination now will not have serious financial repercussions (or we would not have terminated).

2. Ellis' job isn't to manage performance on the pitch. Performance on the pitch lies with the DoR, the coaches and the players. Given the decline, the change has now been made.

3. The "we cannot fill" a bigger stadium line is nonsense. Our attendance figures at the Stoop have been excellent for the past few seasons. If performance on the pitch improves, there is no reason to think we will not grow into it. The idea isn't to have sellouts from day 1, it is to have a stadium that we can gradually fill, as we have with the current stadium. To progress to the next level, a bigger stadium is very important.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 10:03
Filling the stadium should be feasible now that a day out at the Rugby has become a family occasion including the wife and little ones coming along.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Squid (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 10:21
I've never met David Ellis, but any CEO must be held accountable for the performance of the business - and at the core of the Quins business is the success or failure of the mens team.

Almost everything of importance flows from that - sponsorship money, ticket income and attracting & retaining top talent.

In the past 5 years, Quins have WON NOTHING. More specifically, even with a truly talented generation of players, they've barely got close:

In Europe - majority of last 5 years failed to even qualify for the main competition. Out-played in their one final in the 2nd tier competition.

In Premiership - failed to achieve top 4 in last 4 years. In 2017/18 will finish 9th, 10th or 11th.

A sorry state of affairs. And any CEO should be held accountable for the performance and health of the core business.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Uncle Arthur (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 10:35
Quote:
Squid
A sorry state of affairs. And any CEO should be held accountable for the performance and health of the core business.

,,, and he's done (and probably still doing) something about it!

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
GP2110 (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 10:45
You put caps for Quins have "WON NOTHING" as if it is a major anomaly. It is not.

You have taken 2013/2014 as the cut off (as we won the LV in 2012/2013), which is fine.

Since then:

Saracens - 5 trophies (2 x premiership, 2 x Champions cups, 1 x Anglo-Welsh)
Exeter - 3 trophies (1 x premiership, 2 x Anglo-Welsh)
Northampton - 2 trophies (Challenge Cup and league both in 2013/2014)
Leicester - 1 trophy (Anglo-Welsh in 2016/2017)
Gloucester - 1 trophy (Challenge cup in 2014/2015)
Quins - Zero trophies
Wasps - Zero trophies
Bath - Zero trophies
Sale - Zero trophies
Newcastle - Zero trophies
London Irish - Zero trophies
Worcester - Zero trophies

So in the period you identify, Quins, Wasps, Bath, Sale, Newcastle, Irish and Worcester have won no trophies. Northampton's only trophies came in the first qualifying year. Only Exeter and Saracens have won consistently.

Before the qualifying period, we won the league in 2011/2012 and the Challenge Cup in 2010/2011.

We won nothing (other than when we were relegated) between 2004 and 2010/2011.

It is not as if we have suddenly stopped winning trophies. We never won trophies consistently.

We need to improve financially and in terms of league position / trophies no doubt. But almost every team in the league is the same. We just have more to do based on this season.

Ellis has taken the first step by changing the DoR.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2018 10:46 by GP2110.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Squid (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 11:02
My point really is that:

- We've not even got close to winning anything. Very few quarter-finals, semi-finals or finals - let alone any trophies, even in the LV / Anglo-WElsh. Its really poor.

- the CEO is accountable for this because it's the core activity by a very long way. The rest is mainly fluff until it delivers tangible benefits.

- Yes, he's finally taken action concerning the DOR problem, which he created and then sustained, but that hardly adds up to a good performance by the CEO.

I have nothing again David Ellis personally.

What I've written is factual about the performance - and rather obvious about the responsibility and accountability of any CEO.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
DOK. (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 12:40
At Harlequins, the link between performance and sponsors/season tickets has always been a pretty weak one.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
blucherquin (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 12:57
Quote:
Squid
My point really is that:
- We've not even got close to winning anything. Very few quarter-finals, semi-finals or finals - let alone any trophies, even in the LV / Anglo-WElsh. Its really poor.

- the CEO is accountable for this because it's the core activity by a very long way. The rest is mainly fluff until it delivers tangible benefits.

- Yes, he's finally taken action concerning the DOR problem, which he created and then sustained, but that hardly adds up to a good performance by the CEO.

I have nothing again David Ellis personally.

What I've written is factual about the performance - and rather obvious about the responsibility and accountability of any CEO.

Iím pretty sure I went to Lyon to watch us play Montpellier in the Euro cup final - so that was close to winning something.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
mandator (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 15:14
To me it is the hands off approach of the ultimate owner of the club living somewhere off shore. Does he watch the games HIS team plays- I doubt it. We need a Tony Rowe or Nigel Wray type owner who turns up on match days and takes an active interest in what is going on. Instead we have a poor CEO and weak Board of Directors.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
GP2110 (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 15:23
Ellis very rarely misses a home game at the Stoop. He sits at the top of the IG stand on the half way line (exactly where Joe was looking for him on Saturday).

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
ssdudley (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 15:45
Charles Jillings is very often present as well, limited exposure, but nice chap imo.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
DOK. (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 16:02
Charles Jillings is Duncan Saville's representative on Earth (well UK at least).

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
ironquin1886 (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 16:03
I don't think anyone should blame David Ellis. He is a lifelong Harlequins fan so only wants the best for the club. I don't think he will make the same mistake twice. I think this has been a wake up call.

Look at chairman Daniel Levy at Spurs. Mauricio Pochettino is the ninth Tottenham manager Daniel Levy has appointed in a little over 13 years as chairman of the club.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
thomh (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 21:53
Quote:
Squid
A sorry state of affairs. And any CEO should be held accountable for the performance and health of the core business.

But you aren't talking about the business, you're just talking about the product. It's like saying the CEO of Coca Cola should resign if it stops tasting as good.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Uncle Arthur (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 21:58
Quote:
thomh
Quote:
Squid
A sorry state of affairs. And any CEO should be held accountable for the performance and health of the core business.

But you aren't talking about the business, you're just talking about the product. It's like saying the CEO of Coca Cola should resign if it stops tasting as good.

If the CEO was aware of that then ..YES!

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
mandator (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 06:28
Dave Ellis being in the stand and Charles Jillings appearing for the odd match is a very poor substitute for the strong and visible owner management at Exeter and Saracens.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 06:58
During his tenure he has secured big sponsorship deals with DHL,re-signed key players, recruited other big players, signed a big contract with Adidas and set up some weird link with NZRU - pretty sure this is his remit.

He appointed a guy to run the team, that guy was deemed to not be good enough, so he got rid of him?

What more is he meant to do?

I don't care if the owners come to the games, I don't care if the CEO is a life long fan, i care that they run a club that doesn't fail, that might eventually make a profit and that can provide a coach with enough resources to be competitive.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
DazzaS (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 07:03
The pressure must be on David Ellis, He came in with the task (I presume from the owner) to make the club self sustainable and show supporters q plan on how to do that and be in the black by now.

He wanted to make Harlequins the best club in world on and off the pitch.

But despite Quins having second highest revenue to Wasps we also have second highest losses our income has grown more than the wage bill. So where is the money going?

On top of that there seems to be a focus on keeping the eespensiv3 England talent which surely leads to a smaller pool of players to draw from so Injuries will have m9re of an effect on us than other clubs.

Quins kept saying clubs dodging salary cap will be found out and face consequences because n9t good for other clubs who try to stay sustainable yet Quins signed up to the hush agreement to protect the miscreants.

Since that time the increase in salary cap are pushing other clubs to the wall.

Quins policies seems to be all over the place

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 09:49
But I thought you needed England players in your squad to attract other good players who want game time and also want to play for England. Nathan Earle, like.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
DOK. (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 11:53
Quote:
mandator
Dave Ellis being in the stand and Charles Jillings appearing for the odd match is a very poor substitute for the strong and visible owner management at Exeter and Saracens.

Oh God! Now we've moaned about the DOR and the CEO we're moving on to the owner?

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Cookie (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 12:04
Quote:
DOK
Quote:
mandator
Dave Ellis being in the stand and Charles Jillings appearing for the odd match is a very poor substitute for the strong and visible owner management at Exeter and Saracens.

Oh God! Now we've moaned about the DOR and the CEO we're moving on to the owner?

Quite. Different rules apply here, surely. After all, people who'll stump up £3m a year to keep the club going aren't exactly two-a-penny.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
JJ44 (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 12:25
Quote:
Nev's Left Boot
During his tenure he has secured big sponsorship deals with DHL,re-signed key players, recruited other big players, signed a big contract with Adidas and set up some weird link with NZRU - pretty sure this is his remit.
He appointed a guy to run the team, that guy was deemed to not be good enough, so he got rid of him?

What more is he meant to do?

I don't care if the owners come to the games, I don't care if the CEO is a life long fan, i care that they run a club that doesn't fail, that might eventually make a profit and that can provide a coach with enough resources to be competitive.

WHAT HE SAID..!!!

IMO the CEO of a progressive minded rugby club should be judged on the commercial decisions and strategy he/she implements along with the recruitment decisions of back room senior staff and playing support.


I personally think he has partially delivered on the commercially side. He has secured:
-most lucrative front of shirt sponsorship in the premiership with DHL
-overall we will no doubt have the biggest overall sponsorship deal in the premiership when you add in IG, adidas etc.
-Season ticket holders as % of ground capacity must be right up there, possibly top 3?
-Overall sell outs must be right up there over the last 2-3 years
-Big Game is still head and shoulders above any other event in the premiership
-The deal with NZ....no other CEO or club has thought of that or pulled it off
-Women's: we are the benchmark for womens rugby and are the one's trying to drive it forward (RFU could learn a few lessons)
-Harlequins Foundation: This has been created under his watch and appears to be doing some amazing things in the community
-Brand: Investing in the brand with the USA strategy etc is only a good thing for the club long term. Other clubs are having a dabble because they have seen us do it, but all they are doing is going over the pond for a game of rugby and coming home. Quins are trying to set up a permanent base over their, getting into the collegiate system etc. This is all long term thinking and IMO a positive one.


Now I say he has "partially" achieved on the commercial front as the finances are a mess and are getting worse year on year, we cannot question that. But for all we know the owners may have given him the brief to invest in all the above points on the punt that the payback will happen several years down the road?

There is no doubt they will be losing hundreds of thousands a year investing in the brand, USA, women etc with no realistic financial payback certainly in the next 5 years is my guess. This is a big call to make and one that most if not all other premiership clubs have decided not to do, or on a much smaller scale.

I get the impression Quins are the main premiership club who are looking to drive the brand of premiership rugby forward and are thinking long term. The problem they face is most of the other clubs (northampton/sale/gloucester to name a few) are happy to survive in the here and now and will only be looking 12 months down the line trying to break even or make a small loss.

This goes back to my original point on another thread about the rugby model being broken and it concerns me that until this is fixed premiership rugby will stagnate. The RFU in my opinion have a lot to answer for as they have sat back and let this fiasco unfold whilst sitting at the top of the tree in their gold plated ivory tower.

Anyway the non-rugby side is probably boring to most on here so i won't drivel on anymore!!

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
11 April, 2018 12:37
It was good drivel though.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
CPB62 (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 12:44
Sorry but Ellis isn't the issue in respect of finance. after responses to my post on another thread I am now convinced we are not making the losses stated, the Premiership Rugby side is losing money, but I would guess every club has that issue. I doubt very much if the club as a whole is losing money as I would expect the satellite companies are making a healthy profit.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 12:47
Quote:
mandator
Dave Ellis being in the stand and Charles Jillings appearing for the odd match is a very poor substitute for the strong and visible owner management at Exeter and Saracens.

Actually, despite consistent claims to the contrary in poorly-researched newspaper articles, Tony Rowe doesn't own Exe - it's owned by fans. TR is Chairman.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 12:50
Quote:
GP2110
You put caps for Quins have "WON NOTHING" as if it is a major anomaly. It is not.
You have taken 2013/2014 as the cut off (as we won the LV in 2012/2013), which is fine.

Since then:

Saracens - 5 trophies (2 x premiership, 2 x Champions cups, 1 x Anglo-Welsh)
Exeter - 3 trophies (1 x premiership, 2 x Anglo-Welsh)
Northampton - 2 trophies (Challenge Cup and league both in 2013/2014)
Leicester - 1 trophy (Anglo-Welsh in 2016/2017)
Gloucester - 1 trophy (Challenge cup in 2014/2015)
Quins - Zero trophies
Wasps - Zero trophies
Bath - Zero trophies
Sale - Zero trophies
Newcastle - Zero trophies
London Irish - Zero trophies
Worcester - Zero trophies

So in the period you identify, Quins, Wasps, Bath, Sale, Newcastle, Irish and Worcester have won no trophies. Northampton's only trophies came in the first qualifying year. Only Exeter and Saracens have won consistently.

Before the qualifying period, we won the league in 2011/2012 and the Challenge Cup in 2010/2011.

We won nothing (other than when we were relegated) between 2004 and 2010/2011.

It is not as if we have suddenly stopped winning trophies. We never won trophies consistently.

We need to improve financially and in terms of league position / trophies no doubt. But almost every team in the league is the same. We just have more to do based on this season.

Ellis has taken the first step by changing the DoR.


I totally agree with everything you have said here, well apart from the last bit about Ellis as I will leave that to the Quins fans.

The truth is that Quins have underperfomed this year, you should not be losing by 30 points to a team that will get relegated and you lost to them twice, that's not good enough.

Quins do not have a time where in your history, you have won consistently, yes you have won a challenge cup and a premiership but over the last 5 years it's been Sarries and Exeter winning trophies in the premiership, apart from Leicester last year, from the 2015 season, every single trophy won by an english team has been won by sarries and exeter, while i agree that you should certainly be doing much better than you are doing but on balance of things, I still don't think your squad is a top 4 squad, top 6 maybe but definitely not top 4 and if you don't get a good coach and recruit well, you will be in a lot of trouble next year as next season, there will be no easy games as every team is becoming stronger in the league.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 12:54
Quote:
JJ44
a very long post...

I agree with most of that but regarding the RFU their big mistake was sitting back when the game went pro and leaving the clubs to it and that was far too long ago now to worry about.

Since then club rugby has been run by the clubs/PRL and if the model's broken it's down to them to fix it, if that's possible. I'm quite sure the RFU would love to run club rugby but they blew it back in the 90s.



BB

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 15:20
Quote:
CPB62
Sorry but Ellis isn't the issue in respect of finance. after responses to my post on another thread I am now convinced we are not making the losses stated, the Premiership Rugby side is losing money, but I would guess every club has that issue. I doubt very much if the club as a whole is losing money as I would expect the satellite companies are making a healthy profit.


I'm guessing that's the aim. Soften the Rugby losses in any way you can.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: The decline of Harlequins under David Ellis
DOK. (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 15:35
Worse than that. In the year before professionalism the RFU had contracted all the England players. As the game went professional, they decided to save money by not contracting players, the clubs stepped in and we've had this pushmi-pullyu situation with the clubs and RFU ever since.


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