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Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 10:45
Bought our first set of season tickets in 91 and to be honest was disappointed at the standard of rugby in the Premiership. Quins had a few international players Wood, Carling, Moore, Luger, Burke plus Aussies etc but we rarely Sustained any quality performances.

The premiership winning team was outstanding and gave us one of the greatest days at Twickenham that to be honest I never thought I’d see.

In the years since 91 there have been a few stand out teams but Tigers Wasps and the recent emergence of Sarries, Exeter and even Sale & Newcastle show things can change.

We have had numerous players since 91 some have been great while others have not lived up to their reputations. The premiership winning team was based on a lot of academy guys led by Minty and Nev with Mo and Gommers as surprise packages and the atmosphere seemed to be very positive with everyone contributing. Again much like Exeter are now and Sarries had recently.

Until we can build that atmosphere again we might have the odd big win against the top 4 have a bit of a run in the second tier of Europe but not much else.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
The Dead Baron (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 10:52
I've said this repeatedly and repeatedly been shot down for it: we are a perrenial 6th-9th place side. It feels like our place in the natural order of things and unless things change dramatically - what, I don't know, but I presume the coaching set-up is a good place to start - that is where I fear we will stay.

*puts on tin hat and dashes back to trench, waiting for the next inevitable barrage*

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 11:11
Dont think you can argue with that looking back, its the looking forward bit that is difficult.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Dave L (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 11:14
Aside from Leicester and now Sarries (who knows how long that will last?) - no team has had a sustained period at the top table.

I maintain that you could probably say much the same about many of the premiership teams as has been said about us. Teams have had periods where they have done well but that has been mixed with periods where they really haven't. Wasps and Sale have come close to relegation in the past 10 years. Northants were a year or so behind our downward trajectory after winning the league. Bath have been bouncing up and down the table. Gloucester have spent ages in the lower reaches too. Newcastle have been brilliant this season but never really threatened to do much after their purple patch at the end of the 20th century.

Exeter have been on an upward trajectory but it's distinctly possible that the England setup will have greater eyes on their players in the near future. Hepburn, Williams, Armand, Maunder, Nowell etc etc. They've certainly found a formula that works down there so far.

What I'm saying is that it's cyclical. I still feel that many clubs are run in a bit of an amateur way. Leicester have been a bit more professional for years before the rest of us and honestly, I feel that it has really helped maintain their position near the top despite not actually being at the summit for a while. We could improve beyond our lower middle average but it'll take a step change in approach on and off the field for it to be lasting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2018 11:15 by Dave L.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
DOK (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 13:45
No we won't always be bottom 6. As we went into 2018 we were still on target for a top four finish. Even when that slipped top six would have been achievable if we'd won the games we should have. See the roadmap.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 13:55
Only us and Saints have fallen so badly since winning the Prem and for what look pretty similar reasons - no succession planning, no significant to changes in management and playing squad so it all got too comfortable and a team that wasn’t working with the coaching staff.

That’s what we need to get right and I’d say we have this one chance to get it right.

A club with vision would have had the balls to change up our “England” spine of the team with the future in mind.

Now we’ve still got Robshaw, Care and Brown in the final throws of their careers and no leaders to replace them.

The cozy management and bad recruitment could still see us fight to stay up next no matter who comes in. Coz anyone with an eye on Japan only has England as their priority and we have precious little else.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
DazzaS (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 21:53
im in my mind thirties and hope to have another 50 years (though with the bereavement my other half had with her family last month shows that tomorrow is not promised). if like to think in that time Quins will get in top 6 again at least once!

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 23:47
Quote:
blucherquin
Only us and Saints have fallen so badly since winning the Prem and for what look pretty similar reasons...

Well, for a long time, so did Bath (still not making big waves), Sale (resurgence this season the first for some time) and Gloucester (doing better this year, but not really consistent). Newcastle won it years ago, and it is only this and last season where they have really started to stand up and be counted. Leicester have only really started to make a come back later part of last season and this (only a Anglo-Welsh last year to shout about for some time).

With the exceptions (Sarries/Exe) mentioned above in other posts, it is very hard to remain on top. Time will tell if Saracens and more recently, Exeter can keep it up. It is more cyclic than football, where money really does count.

This is no excuse for us being where we are/have been for the several seasons (especially with the promise that was there), but teams seem to have sinusoidal performance in the main.

But I do remember several posters from other boards commenting on the fact that we won it when far fewer of our players were involved with England (and Lions? Like - but not in the same fashion - as Exeter?). Although this doesn't credit the club for the rugby it played that season, which few clubs could keep up with. That's the basis for our present expectation and the wasted heritage.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 08:01
Totally agree teams are cyclical but we seem to be constantly in transition. Maybe we just don’t have the quality coming through the academy.

Just so disappointed with the display last Saturday and the lack of individual effort or club pride and dedication.

Ok the season has gone but let’s hope the last 3 games are taken a bit more seriously.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 10:43
Quote:
blucherquin
Only us and Saints have fallen so badly since winning the Prem and for what look pretty similar reasons - no succession planning, no significant to changes in management and playing squad so it all got too comfortable and a team that wasn’t working with the coaching staff.
That’s what we need to get right and I’d say we have this one chance to get it right.

A club with vision would have had the balls to change up our “England” spine of the team with the future in mind.

Now we’ve still got Robshaw, Care and Brown in the final throws of their careers and no leaders to replace them.

The cozy management and bad recruitment could still see us fight to stay up next no matter who comes in. Coz anyone with an eye on Japan only has England as their priority and we have precious little else.


What are they throwing? Line-outs?



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Mr_B (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 11:28
its interesting, the year we won we were playing amazing rugby, fast paced, offloading easily and accurately and the pace of the game was hard for teams to keep up with, first time I'd seen us play anything like that in 25 years. The follow on season was back to the bad old times slow ball, dropped passes, offloading almost non existent, missed lineouts etc. Dont know whether that was coaching or the players forgot how they were playing the previous season. We are still playing the same way now, I personally think we have a squad that can compete and certainly worthy of top 4 but for some reason just not putting in the performances when it really matters. It's so frustrating when they win the games I predict us to lose (the hard ones ie sarries) then the ones that should be somewhat easier (never a given) such as perhaps Irish we implode. Think this is more than a cycle with us, we just kind of fell apart with a stronger squad.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 16:07
Think oppo had worked us out the following year tbh



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 16:41
Quote:
Scaramouche
Think oppo had worked us out the following year tbh

The myth of the “Quins way” of playing that’s now haunting us making progress.

Everyone plays “our” way - we can’t.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Dave L (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 16:56
Quote:
Scaramouche
Think oppo had worked us out the following year tbh

I think it was the year after that. Remember we came 3rd in 12/13 and made the QF of the European Cup after thumping everyone in our group. The next season though the writing was certainly on the wall, scraping 4th - JJ had gone, Olly Kohn had retired and by the end of that season you could see we needed some upgrades in a few positions.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 17:09
Quote:
Dave L
Quote:
Scaramouche
Think oppo had worked us out the following year tbh

I think it was the year after that. Remember we came 3rd in 12/13 and made the QF of the European Cup after thumping everyone in our group. The next season though the writing was certainly on the wall, scraping 4th - JJ had gone, Olly Kohn had retired and by the end of that season you could see we needed some upgrades in a few positions.

Right there - by that point that’s the moment when we’d already failed to recruit for what happens next. And it only got worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2018 17:10 by blucherquin.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Dave L (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 18:09
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Dave L
Quote:
Scaramouche
Think oppo had worked us out the following year tbh

I think it was the year after that. Remember we came 3rd in 12/13 and made the QF of the European Cup after thumping everyone in our group. The next season though the writing was certainly on the wall, scraping 4th - JJ had gone, Olly Kohn had retired and by the end of that season you could see we needed some upgrades in a few positions.

Right there - by that point that’s the moment when we’d already failed to recruit for what happens next. And it only got worse.

Yes, PDJ was doing nothing, Kennedy didn’t do a huge amount, George Lowe got the first of his nasty injuries. Ditto JTH. Robson was our only real senior lock, a ridiculous situation to be in. We lacked depth in quite a few places which should’ve been looked at earlier.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
number_seven (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 19:39
No, probably not.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 20:33
Quote:
Dave L
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Dave L
Quote:
Scaramouche
Think oppo had worked us out the following year tbh

I think it was the year after that. Remember we came 3rd in 12/13 and made the QF of the European Cup after thumping everyone in our group. The next season though the writing was certainly on the wall, scraping 4th - JJ had gone, Olly Kohn had retired and by the end of that season you could see we needed some upgrades in a few positions.

Right there - by that point that’s the moment when we’d already failed to recruit for what happens next. And it only got worse.

Yes, PDJ was doing nothing, Kennedy didn’t do a huge amount, George Lowe got the first of his nasty injuries. Ditto JTH. Robson was our only real senior lock, a ridiculous situation to be in. We lacked depth in quite a few places which should’ve been looked at earlier.

JTH and Lowe were a key pairing at the time. I don't think we've managed to match that centre partnership since.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 20:35
Every other team anylysed us & worked out how to stopmus getting quick ball. We never had an answer or a Plan B. Plus the above. We became very ordinary very quickly. We failed to kick on & take a fabulous opportunity. With the current set up, bottom 6 is a given.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 21:13
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Dave L
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Dave L
Quote:
Scaramouche
Think oppo had worked us out the following year tbh

I think it was the year after that. Remember we came 3rd in 12/13 and made the QF of the European Cup after thumping everyone in our group. The next season though the writing was certainly on the wall, scraping 4th - JJ had gone, Olly Kohn had retired and by the end of that season you could see we needed some upgrades in a few positions.

Right there - by that point that’s the moment when we’d already failed to recruit for what happens next. And it only got worse.

Yes, PDJ was doing nothing, Kennedy didn’t do a huge amount, George Lowe got the first of his nasty injuries. Ditto JTH. Robson was our only real senior lock, a ridiculous situation to be in. We lacked depth in quite a few places which should’ve been looked at earlier.

JTH and Lowe were a key pairing at the time. I don't think we've managed to match that centre partnership since.

And no back up and JTH was at the end of his career and then Lowe became a casualty.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 21:28
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Dave L
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Dave L
Quote:
Scaramouche
Think oppo had worked us out the following year tbh

I think it was the year after that. Remember we came 3rd in 12/13 and made the QF of the European Cup after thumping everyone in our group. The next season though the writing was certainly on the wall, scraping 4th - JJ had gone, Olly Kohn had retired and by the end of that season you could see we needed some upgrades in a few positions.

Right there - by that point that’s the moment when we’d already failed to recruit for what happens next. And it only got worse.

Yes, PDJ was doing nothing, Kennedy didn’t do a huge amount, George Lowe got the first of his nasty injuries. Ditto JTH. Robson was our only real senior lock, a ridiculous situation to be in. We lacked depth in quite a few places which should’ve been looked at earlier.

JTH and Lowe were a key pairing at the time. I don't think we've managed to match that centre partnership since.

And no back up and JTH was at the end of his career and then Lowe became a casualty.

I thought JTH was still young, but had to retire through injury?

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Dave L (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 21:49
Yes, JTH retired aged 27 after a couple of years of injury. The Quins centre curse strikes again.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 22:15
Add to the centre partnership was big Mo was never replaced. With Minty doing most of the carrying we struggled and to be honest we only Have Matt Luamanu who is good but not consistent. Young Chis maybe part of the solution but is still young. Not sure Jack is a carrier. Let’s hope Bothama stays fit as he looked ok, but breaking his arm twice is a worry.

Why the coaches haven’t filled this role to carry defensively when we need to get out of our 22 etc and then offensively when we are attacking. It’s fundamental but has been missing since the premiership winning season.

The squad has bumbled along without the necessary elements. Sarries and Wasps have continuously brought in short term players to fill in when injuries have hit them. Calum Clark breaks his arm in comes Blair from Irish. Skelton from Oz comes in when Kruis was out and last season when Alistair ? the Wolf pack beer guy had to retire.

Everybody has injuries....others react by bringing in quality players with similar playing attributes. Ok we had two replacement scrummies and Ben Glynn but no number eight.

If the rumour was true we lost out on Cipriani when Cos left....and we were lucky both Marcus Smith and Lang did ok when the Cat was injured.

Centres have always been a problem once George was injured and JTH had to retire. For some reason we cant seem to get a partnership that clicks.

I fully appreciate its easy to throw stones from the sidelines and I have no coaching or rugby club management experience.....I’m just a fan who has watched for the past 17 or so years and seen lots of poor seasons with poor player performances and a couple of outstanding ones where the rugby played was very good.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 10:09
Quote:
Kent Fan
I fully appreciate its easy to throw stones from the sidelines and I have no coaching or rugby club management experience.....I’m just a fan who has watched for the past 17 or so years and seen lots of poor seasons with poor player performances and a couple of outstanding ones where the rugby played was very good.

Yeah but - the abject failure to recruit and move the team on has now been laid bare. And we were right to doubt CoS post 2012 and even more right to think JK wasn’t a DOR.

It seems (to me another stone thrower) that OShea’s mistakes were papered over by his effect on the dressing room - then once Jk lost the dressing room - we were toslly shown up for the poor squad we’ve really got.

England players past their peak (still no replacements for any of them as I write), some very average club players beneath them and no one to change some very old ideas.

We should have started changing the “big” players in 2013, and the coaching staff too.

Someone much smarter than me wrote a good piece weeks ago saying Quins had clung to players for far too long.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
plzd (IP Logged)
13 April, 2018 13:44
No we will be top of the Championship for 5 seasons.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
T-Bone (IP Logged)
13 April, 2018 17:05
What is very concerning is that, despite a lot of posts saying Care, Brown, Marler and Robshaw are getting on and maybe have too much power, other than Marler, where we have Boyce, we will really be in the .... when the others go.

Brown- Chisholm and Morris. Chisholm looked really good but injury seems to have dented his confidence. Still great at mirtacle last ditch tackles, but not that reliable. Morris has been really poor. Sarries wouldn't have let him go if they thought he was their long term 15.

Care - Dickson was a greast back up. Stuart and Burns have both been let go. Stuart is getting a second chance at Falcons but not really setting the world alight. Though Mulchrone looked decent, but injury has hamperted him. Lewis is poor. Maybe Waters can do ok.

Robshaw - Chisholm has loads of potential, Clifford has gone off boil, probably due to injuries. Bothmas is made of cardboard and not the worker Chris is. Wallace should be let go. He has gone backwards.

So we have three top players who may retire, move to France of play less post 2019, and do succession plan

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Closer & Closer (IP Logged)
13 April, 2018 18:36
To have decent backups to the first choice players we would have needed to sink a lot of money into the depth of the squad.

Not sure our backers want to make that kind of commitment and if you can fill the stadium regularly like Quins have been able to why spend the money like Sarries have.

They might have won the trophies and been very successful, but their regular attendances are poor and they are losing money.

We don't have the ambition to be regular in the top six and if we are the next season we get hammered in the champions cup anyway.

We are always going to be bottom six and tis season has shown with a strong team well the 23 on paper we have fallen away.

Against Sarries away and last week especially we had a strong squad out but coldly win.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
DOK (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 12:31
but, in theory, aren't we spending the same amount on our squad as, say, Saracens? They just have built a better squad than we have, because people want to play for them and they can drive a harder bargain.

If it's true we're spending up to the salary cap then, apart from the marquee players, there's no more money the owners can put in the playing side.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 12:57
Quote:
DOK
but, in theory, aren't we spending the same amount on our squad as, say, Saracens? They just have built a better squad than we have, because people want to play for them and they can drive a harder bargain.
If it's true we're spending up to the salary cap then, apart from the marquee players, there's no more money the owners can put in the playing side.

Yeah we bought poorly and kept expensive England players we should have replaced.

Brown, Care, Robshaw - there’s a million quid for starters if cash that’s going nowhere. I’d keep Chris out of loyalty.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 13:01
Hmm, Care has mostly been fantastic for us this season, and Robshaw too. If we want to beat the best sides we need players like those two.

Brown's been largely poor, though.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 14:46
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
DOK
but, in theory, aren't we spending the same amount on our squad as, say, Saracens? They just have built a better squad than we have, because people want to play for them and they can drive a harder bargain.
If it's true we're spending up to the salary cap then, apart from the marquee players, there's no more money the owners can put in the playing side.

Yeah we bought poorly and kept expensive England players we should have replaced.

Brown, Care, Robshaw - there’s a million quid for starters if cash that’s going nowhere. I’d keep Chris out of loyalty.

I can't think of any player I'd choose over Robshaw.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 16:10
Quite - but who’s behind him pushing him for his place?

Ben Glynn? Lovely.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 16:20
Quote:
blucherquin
Quite - but who’s behind him pushing him for his place?
Ben Glynn? Lovely.

Nobody needs to push him. But that's not the point. You stated that he should be kept through loyalty. I'd suggest keeping him because I can't think of a better replacement.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 17:18
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
blucherquin
Quite - but who’s behind him pushing him for his place?
Ben Glynn? Lovely.

Nobody needs to push him. But that's not the point. You stated that he should be kept through loyalty. I'd suggest keeping him because I can't think of a better replacement.

Which sums pretty perfectly everything wrong with our squad. Our perfect player is away for the key parts of the season and has no competition for his place.

(And my post was meant to be provocative - of course they are all/can all be brilliant but we never bothered thinking about when they’re away/injured/old)

The whole squad need the Malcolm Tucker carrot and stick approach - shoving a carrot up their bums, followed by the stick, followed by a bigger knobblier carrot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/04/2018 17:21 by blucherquin.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 20:28
I think we have been guilty recently of keeping some players too long. Loyalty is great but you need to be sensible. Evans, Ugo, Williams all stayed a bit too long. Ties up with when we talk about the squad make up. My opinion is that we have not got value for money in certain areas fir a while. Basically its another point for me of a massive shake up needed. Too comfy for all involved. Get someone in who will shake things up and put a few noses out of place.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 20:40
Quote:
HonkyTonk
I think we have been guilty recently of keeping some players too long. Loyalty is great but you need to be sensible. Evans, Ugo, Williams all stayed a bit too long. Ties up with when we talk about the squad make up. My opinion is that we have not got value for money in certain areas fir a while. Basically its another point for me of a massive shake up needed. Too comfy for all involved. Get someone in who will shake things up and put a few noses out of place.

My whole point exactly.

We lacked anyone to kick these players out and shake things up - it’s the key to progress and we’ve done nothing.

Kept our “loyal” 2012 winners and not replaced - and rather than saying thanks and waving goodbye, anyone who can’t play anymore gets a coaching job.

Same group of cozy mates doing the same stuff badly since 2014....it’s not the motto I’d choose.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 22:30
It works for Sarries though.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 22:35
Quote:
HonkyTonk
I think we have been guilty recently of keeping some players too long. Loyalty is great but you need to be sensible. Evans, Ugo, Williams all stayed a bit too long. Ties up with when we talk about the squad make up. My opinion is that we have not got value for money in certain areas fir a while. Basically its another point for me of a massive shake up needed. Too comfy for all involved. Get someone in who will shake things up and put a few noses out of place.

Ugo and Williams seemed to play well until retiring. Nev I'd agree stayed on too long.

Ugo severed ties with the club, that's a good thing. Williams seems to be doing a very good job, learning the ropes with the A Squad. But Evans, not doing so good.

Two out of three names that you mention I don't think stayed on too long. One of the two who were retained in some form seems to have given good value for his subsequent appointment. I agree it's not a good ratio/

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Dave L (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 08:00
The people staying too long thing feels worse in the context of how injured Ugo was for the last couple of years. It was always maintained that we spent up to the cap and that hamstrung us from making upgrades/replacements. I’d say with the benefit of hindsight that perhaps that the issue was more overpaying players than anything else.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 08:12
Cant take the criticism of Tom Williams, he had a great positional nous and game reading ability, getting the back 3 out of all sort of scrapes.

Also I don’t think he was that expensive, but have no way of knowing.

Again the type of player we never replaced successfully.

JK and his comment about the squad being the best for a number of years....this is a sad refelection on him and the coaching team being unable to get them to play like the best set of players consistently.

Until our coaches, whoever they are in the next few season, can get the squad to play we will bumble away in the lower 6 with a surprise win in some games.

 
Re: Will we always be in the bottom 6?
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 15:07
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
It works for Sarries though.

Exactly - their time on the pitch is managed better and they replacements slot in more effectively.

I get the feeling that many of our youngsters were bought in through emergency than expediency. They haven't had enough time to learn from seniors and at the same time the seniors haven't been moving on themselves - too many have plateaued in the last 2-3 seasons.

However, our A team has arguably played better in 2018 than our "First XV".


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