This is incredible. The Irish result seemingly had no effect on him leaving as they had decided 2 weeks ago. But ‘practicalities’ meant last Saturday happened.

Unbelievably crass. This isn’t a dig at JK, by the way. What kind of way is this to run things??

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

Can you expand on what your complaint is exactly?

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O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

Bizarre. Bit odd to say that staying on until the end of the season won't negatively affect the squad, when we got the LI performance after the squad were told he was leaving.

Wonder if that's why MArler was so angry?

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T-Bone
Bizarre. Bit odd to say that staying on until the end of the season won't negatively affect the squad, when we got the LI performance after the squad were told he was leaving.
Wonder if that's why MArler was so angry?

If you check the piece, you'll see that the squad were informed on Monday, two days AFTER the game.

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Jammy Git
Can you expand on what your complaint is exactly?

The debacle of last Saturday could have been avoided. We could have had 2 more weeks for a DoR to come in and look at/work with the players in live play before the end of the season. Etc etc.

Basically, the toxicity that ran throughout the club (players thought not to be trying 100%, Marler looking for Ellis, the walkout, fans demonstrating on social media, incredulous media saying club hits new low etc) could have been avoided.

How could Ellis and JK think it was credible for him to coach the team vs Irish when they knew he was off and the players didn’t?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/04/2018 10:04 by Cookie.

This whole thing is also available in the thread started earlier

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Fearless Fred

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T-Bone
Bizarre. Bit odd to say that staying on until the end of the season won't negatively affect the squad, when we got the LI performance after the squad were told he was leaving.
Wonder if that's why MArler was so angry?

If you check the piece, you'll see that the squad were informed on Monday, two days AFTER the game.

Oh, I read that wrong. I read it for some reason as them being informed Monday last week, not this week. Not sure why. Makes more sense

JK said he had decided to go 2 weeks ago but it seemed it took him until the LI game to remember what he had decided. Quite simple really - just a poor memory prompted by watching the team collapse.

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Cookie

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Jammy Git
Can you expand on what your complaint is exactly?

The debacle of last Saturday could have been avoided. We could have had 2 more weeks for a DoR to come in and look at/work with the players in live play before the end of the season. Etc etc.

Basically, the toxicity that ran throughout the club (players thought not to be trying 100%, Marler looking for Ellis, the walkout, fans demonstrating on social media, incredulous media saying club hits new low etc) could have been avoided.

How could Ellis and JK think it was credible for him to coach the team vs Irish when they knew he was off and the players didn’t?

Look, it’s a line in a Kingston interview where he’s been allowed the dignity of making it about his decision to go and that it wasn’t just because of the Irish result.

We’ll never know what happened, so getting irate over one totally unverifiable story over another seems a bit of a waste.

You might as well say how can he coach the next three games.

No one would appoint a new DoR to run three pointless games where the team are likely to get beaten - hardly the start you want.

I think we can allow JK as a great longstanding servant of the club to have his leaving story and for us to thank him and move on.

I really don’t get what you think would have happened differently.

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blucherquin

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Cookie

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Jammy Git
Can you expand on what your complaint is exactly?

The debacle of last Saturday could have been avoided. We could have had 2 more weeks for a DoR to come in and look at/work with the players in live play before the end of the season. Etc etc.

Basically, the toxicity that ran throughout the club (players thought not to be trying 100%, Marler looking for Ellis, the walkout, fans demonstrating on social media, incredulous media saying club hits new low etc) could have been avoided.

How could Ellis and JK think it was credible for him to coach the team vs Irish when they knew he was off and the players didn’t?

Look, it’s a line in a Kingston interview where he’s been allowed the dignity of making it about his decision to go and that it wasn’t just because of the Irish result.

We’ll never know what happened, so getting irate over one totally unverifiable story over another seems a bit of a waste.

You might as well say how can he coach the next three games.

No one would appoint a new DoR to run three pointless games where the team are likely to get beaten - hardly the start you want.

I think we can allow JK as a great longstanding servant of the club to have his leaving story and for us to thank him and move on.

I really don’t get what you think would have happened differently.

Not sure what ‘unverifiable’ stories you’re comparing, but this one quotes JK directly, so therefore is verified.

As I said, I’m not blaming JK. Quite the opposite. And I’ve already said what I thought could have been avoided, not least he could have kept a little more of his self esteem by not having to go through what happened last Saturday.

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Cookie

Quote:

Jammy Git
Can you expand on what your complaint is exactly?

The debacle of last Saturday could have been avoided. We could have had 2 more weeks for a DoR to come in and look at/work with the players in live play before the end of the season. Etc etc.

For all we know, the next DoR may have been in the crowd. People have commented that Kennedy and Edwards were both there, and both have been mentioned as possible successors. Maybe they'll both be joining? Or neither.

The more I think about it, the more I am warming to a Temporary fix until after the RWC. Difficult to see a new permanent DOR getting shot of Senior players to stamp his authority in the run up to RWC but after it is a different matter.

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If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

Ugh. What does the world cup have to do with club rugby?

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Cookie

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blucherquin

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Cookie

Quote:

Jammy Git
Can you expand on what your complaint is exactly?

The debacle of last Saturday could have been avoided. We could have had 2 more weeks for a DoR to come in and look at/work with the players in live play before the end of the season. Etc etc.

Basically, the toxicity that ran throughout the club (players thought not to be trying 100%, Marler looking for Ellis, the walkout, fans demonstrating on social media, incredulous media saying club hits new low etc) could have been avoided.

How could Ellis and JK think it was credible for him to coach the team vs Irish when they knew he was off and the players didn’t?

Look, it’s a line in a Kingston interview where he’s been allowed the dignity of making it about his decision to go and that it wasn’t just because of the Irish result.

We’ll never know what happened, so getting irate over one totally unverifiable story over another seems a bit of a waste.

You might as well say how can he coach the next three games.

No one would appoint a new DoR to run three pointless games where the team are likely to get beaten - hardly the start you want.

I think we can allow JK as a great longstanding servant of the club to have his leaving story and for us to thank him and move on.

I really don’t get what you think would have happened differently.

Not sure what ‘unverifiable’ stories you’re comparing, but this one quotes JK directly, so therefore is verified.

As I said, I’m not blaming JK. Quite the opposite. And I’ve already said what I thought could have been avoided, not least he could have kept a little more of his self esteem by not having to go through what happened last Saturday.

Well it’s just a quote from JK - so not sure how that makes it an account of what happened - what’s he going to say?

“I was awful but had no idea and then they sacked me”

As I said, the club are hardly going to dump on him after all his service and that interview softens his departure and makes him seem like he’s the one who made the decision.

Is that the truth? Who knows mate.

(But I still can’t really see how either way we’d suddenly have not been beaten on Saturday.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/04/2018 11:05 by blucherquin.

It could just as easily been that the club sacked JK, and Marler was infuriated at that. Maybe the players en masse thought JK should stay. But he's going so we'll have to wait for memoirs and interviews to learn more.

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Quinky Kin
It could just as easily been that the club sacked JK, and Marler was infuriated at that. Maybe the players en masse thought JK should stay. But he's going so we'll have to wait for memoirs and interviews to learn more.

Yeah my major impression is the opposite but as you say - it’s going to take a few years before we know.

Agreed it's not totally clear if the players knew before the match.
Given the way they played, you'd have to say it was likely.

And nothing in that explains Joe Marler's search for David Ellis.

To ask for JK to be sacked?
To ask for JK not to be sacked?
To say sacking someone before the end of the season is bound to have an effect on the play and why didn't they think it through?

Well here's what Kingston says about Marler from the Mail. I can't see any shred of evidence anywhere that anyone would be upset with Kingston agreeing to leave. It just doesn't add up. Ugo states categorically he lost the dressing room, senior players have been openly critical. Why would anyone go storming off after Ellis when they ditched him? It makes much more sense that Marler was calling for change, unaware it was coming already.



Kingston himself revealed that even a victory last Saturday would have not saved his job - the decision for him to leave at the end of the season was taken around a fortnight ago.
Quins' outgoing director of rugby broke the news to the squad on Monday and has since been flooded with supportive messages which have left him 'overwhelmed' and 'humbled'.
An emotional Kingston said he holds no grudge with senior players who were openly critical of his regime - particularly prop Joe Marler, who will start against Gloucester on Saturday.
'If I had a problem with him, that would not be the case,' he said. 'The relationship with all my players is sound. Marland Yarde was one of the first people to text me - beautiful text - good man.
'This squad has got everything required to take off; it really has. There are the makings there of a team that can win trophies. No doubt at all.
'My international players, like the rest, want to be successful and when that isn't the case, there's frustration.'



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 13/04/2018 12:56 by blucherquin.

Anyone lay their hands on Marler's criticism of JK? Is the bloke confused with Joe's criticism of the appointment of some of the coaches?

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DOK
Anyone lay their hands on Marler's criticism of JK? Is the bloke confused with Joe's criticism of the appointment of some of the coaches?

No he means exactly that. It's exactly why Ugo and Chris Jones were saying Marler had been so outspoken.

The guy says "openly critical of his regime" - and I'd say phoning a BBC podcast and saying you believe the coaching set up needs some outside voices is a pretty damning verdict on your DOR who is responsible for running it.

Sorry - meant to add -- but Kingston could have objected if it wasn't the case and he directly answers the question.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 13/04/2018 13:31 by blucherquin.

Even though the decision was only announced after the game (i.e. last Monday - although it is not 100% specific which Monday it actually was), I suspect that there was some suspicion that something was happening. I working at Quins is anything like any other company that I have ever worked at, the employees are able to piece 90% of any big announcement together before it is actually announced.

Anyway, trying to piece together what happened is beginning to feel like letting Kingston or the player off the hook -- they don't deserve it. They've failed very badly.

The club messed up by renewing his contract at a bizarre moment, so they're to blame for that.

The rest is all on that dressing room and useless coaching team.

It's too easy to blame JK.
ALL the players have messed up big time this season and I find it a bit rich for the senior guys to decide that they are going to effectively get JK sacked through rubbish performances.
Mind you, it is JKs fault for not bringing them into line and reminding them that they are being paid a lot of money to play their best.
Poor show all round leading to a total disaster for the club.
I wouldn't trust the CEO at all - he seems like teflon man but surely must take some of the blame along with the team who undertook the worldwide search for CoS replacement.
RleQ

JK should not be at the club even now.

Once you know your time is up, you need to walk away, to allow for a new way of thinking to seep in. Even if we had someone come in for the last handful games of the season as a "caretaker" the fans deserve something new. If JKs fate was known as reported before the LI game, then my point is already proven. What did the players have to prove? what did JK need to do? not very much.

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Grunge Quin
JK should not be at the club even now.
Once you know your time is up, you need to walk away, to allow for a new way of thinking to seep in. Even if we had someone come in for the last handful games of the season as a "caretaker" the fans deserve something new. If JKs fate was known as reported before the LI game, then my point is already proven. What did the players have to prove? what did JK need to do? not very much.

We do have a caretaker - Mapletoft.

And his fate was known to him (JK) coz he says he decided he had to step down.

And they need not to get relegated or humiliated.

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Cookie

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Jammy Git
Can you expand on what your complaint is exactly?

The debacle of last Saturday could have been avoided. We could have had 2 more weeks for a DoR to come in and look at/work with the players in live play before the end of the season. Etc etc.

I am sure the club do not wish to rush the selection of a new DOR - I cannot see how an additional 2 weeks would have helped out. Not suggesting there "isn't anyone out there", but if Quins are to really make a good job of replacing JK, rushing in to the first available choice would be a bad option, in my view.

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Basically, the toxicity that ran throughout the club (players thought not to be trying 100%, Marler looking for Ellis, the walkout, fans demonstrating on social media, incredulous media saying club hits new low etc) could have been avoided.

There is no guarantee that a caretaker would have been able to arrest Quins dire form (and hence fans' opprobrium) so quickly. I do not buy that the players are deliberately not playing - their morale is shot to bits, but I cant see any of them not playing to seek an outcome.

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How could Ellis and JK think it was credible for him to coach the team vs Irish when they knew he was off and the players didn’t?

This happens all the time in non-sporting and, I suspect, sporting life. Only when the company/club/association or whatever have sorted out the back office practicalities will an announcement be made to all, unless there is some form of compromising situation. I cannot see how any caretaker (especially any internal ones) would have had any better chance of reviving Quins form in the three games remaining.

The practicalities of leaving in most going concerns ensure that all possible loose ends are tied up, legal positions clarified - a process often call "consultation". This is or should be completed prior to general announcement. In this scenario, it is possible that the Team Captain may have been informed.

Problem with caretaker managers is tht they are usually second is command. Does anyone want to see Mapletoft running the show? Or maybe itr would be a forceful personality in the coashing team, so probably Easter. No thanks.

I'm sure the senior players do accept their own shortcomings. Let's not forget that at the start of the season, Care was being talked up as the form no 9 in the country, and before he lost the plot discipline-wise, so was Marler as a loosehead. Robshaw has been as consistent as ever. Brown is the only one of the four to have a poor season. Sinckler has gone backwards, but arguably not one of the senior core of players.

Now those players should take the majority of the blame for their own loss of form, but maybe they are angry because they feel their club environment has contributed. Danny can't blame JK for contuining waving his arms around but he can blame the set up for their dreadful breakdown work and slow ball.

Joe can't balme anyone else for his pathetic discipline, but can moan about being lumbered with a pack who can't drive a maul or win a lineout due to dire coaching.

Mike can't moan about dropping balls and kicking out on the full, or his pace going, but he can moan about tactics which see him always trying to rescue dire positions and never having any attacking ball.

Quins is not a team for players to shine in at the moment. How much better would Clifford, Chisholm, Walker and MArchant have looked in our 2012 team?