And yet Kingston says it's natural that there would be frustrations.
I'd say of course the players will claim that they didn't chuck him out -- coz it makes them look awful.
Or Horwill is right.
We'll never know.
I'd say of course the players will claim that they didn't chuck him out -- coz it makes them look awful.
Or Horwill is right.
We'll never know.
What a piece of work we have for a skipper, of course it was player power and he must have lost the dressing room, why else does a team not give 100%?
The only claim that JK had lost the dressing room came from Ugo. Everyone else just repeated it and used Ugo as their source. Ugo never attempted to justify his claim. never said if it was just a feeling or a cast iron certainty.
I would suspect if it had happened we'd have heard from one of the current players, not from just a single source.
As for frustrations, of course they are there. You couldn't be where the team are in the table and not find frustration in the team. However, I'll bet there's frustration is the Sarries team that they aren't performing to expectation. Finding there are players unhappy with the performance/results of a team does not mean they have turned on the management.
As for who is right, we'll never know. So I have to pick who I find more believable, a player who addresses the problem directly and says it isn't so, or a commentator who is in touch with an unkown number of players (but presumably less than full team) who makes a passing comment not backed up with evidence.
I would suspect if it had happened we'd have heard from one of the current players, not from just a single source.
As for frustrations, of course they are there. You couldn't be where the team are in the table and not find frustration in the team. However, I'll bet there's frustration is the Sarries team that they aren't performing to expectation. Finding there are players unhappy with the performance/results of a team does not mean they have turned on the management.
As for who is right, we'll never know. So I have to pick who I find more believable, a player who addresses the problem directly and says it isn't so, or a commentator who is in touch with an unkown number of players (but presumably less than full team) who makes a passing comment not backed up with evidence.
Yeah exactly.
Look, we're lucky to have Ugo doing the media he does. He's DC's best mate and DC is godfather to his kid.
It means we've got a properly connected source who doesn't have to paint himself in a good light for any reason (other than possibly protecting his friends...but since he's been saying that players told him they're not happy it doesn't feel like it in this case).
He said:
1) JK's appointment caused division in the dressing room and there were players expressing disappointment
2) JK lost the dressing room
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/04/2018 12:37 by blucherquin.
Look, we're lucky to have Ugo doing the media he does. He's DC's best mate and DC is godfather to his kid.
It means we've got a properly connected source who doesn't have to paint himself in a good light for any reason (other than possibly protecting his friends...but since he's been saying that players told him they're not happy it doesn't feel like it in this case).
He said:
1) JK's appointment caused division in the dressing room and there were players expressing disappointment
2) JK lost the dressing room
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/04/2018 12:37 by blucherquin.
Of course we do have history of dressing room revolts, as Dick Best could tell you! 
If he had not lost the Dr it is worrying that they can play like s++t when they were fully behind the DOR
God knows what would have happened if he had lost it.
God knows what would have happened if he had lost it.
People will see what they want to...
Is the above picture of a new signing?
Given that Horwill seems to be blaming injuries, is he in line to be the southern hemishpere DoR? He has clearly learnt the post match comments.
If JK didn't lose the dressing room, then the players accept they all bought into the general mediocrity. The truth won't come out until it's autobiography time.
Marler says we need new voices. Yarde leaves and says JK is a top bloke. Ugo says they lost the dressing room because he is in the business of generating comments. Brown keeps quiet. Robshaw says good riddance to Yarde but not much else. Danny churns out cliches.
You will find someone involved with Quins who'll say whatever it is you want to believe.
My own completely unprovable theory is that JK was in over his head, and like Lancaster with England, allowed himself to be led the wrong way when things started going wrong. For Lancaster it was Farrell, the obsession with rugby league and the Burgess disaster. I reckon at Quins that Easter has a disproportionately big say. Quins legend, coaching success with Wimbleton, big character, etc. It's just my theory, might be miles off, no way of proving it, but just as likely as the other theories swirling around
If JK didn't lose the dressing room, then the players accept they all bought into the general mediocrity. The truth won't come out until it's autobiography time.
Marler says we need new voices. Yarde leaves and says JK is a top bloke. Ugo says they lost the dressing room because he is in the business of generating comments. Brown keeps quiet. Robshaw says good riddance to Yarde but not much else. Danny churns out cliches.
You will find someone involved with Quins who'll say whatever it is you want to believe.
My own completely unprovable theory is that JK was in over his head, and like Lancaster with England, allowed himself to be led the wrong way when things started going wrong. For Lancaster it was Farrell, the obsession with rugby league and the Burgess disaster. I reckon at Quins that Easter has a disproportionately big say. Quins legend, coaching success with Wimbleton, big character, etc. It's just my theory, might be miles off, no way of proving it, but just as likely as the other theories swirling around
Quote:mandator
Is the above picture of a new signing?
No, it's the new DoR
T-Bone I am of the opinion(no substance) the opposite be the case and that Easter doesn’t have a say which is why we r still in this downturn of the last four seasons with the same two at the top!
Maybe his character is being muted and Nick Evans’ too? Experience of JK,MM,CO over youth? It could also be the case for Wig as our set piece has been woeful and he is an experienced international coach with international players we should be much better?
Again just a theory
Maybe his character is being muted and Nick Evans’ too? Experience of JK,MM,CO over youth? It could also be the case for Wig as our set piece has been woeful and he is an experienced international coach with international players we should be much better?
Again just a theory
I am not sure what definition Horwell is using for “losing the dressing room” but as I watch Falcons vs Sharks, both doing much better than us, yet on paper I would far prefer our squad to either of theirs. Yet far too frequently our guys have not performed well and often dreadfully. So if they haven’t played to their full ability they have not given their all for the management team or they have been totally confused/disunited about what management has been asked of them. Lost either way.
How do you define losing the dressing room? A handful of players grumping around and lacking the heart to play for pride? More than a handful? Players thinking JK is doing a bad job? Players thinking the coaches are doing a bad job?
Quote:WoTQuin
I am not sure what definition Horwell is using for “losing the dressing room” but as I watch Falcons vs Sharks, both doing much better than us, yet on paper I would far prefer our squad to either of theirs. Yet far too frequently our guys have not performed well and often dreadfully. So if they haven’t played to their full ability they have not given their all for the management team or they have been totally confused/disunited about what management has been asked of them. Lost either way.
As a Sale fan, I’d say we’ve been just as guilty of playing below our abilities. Witness the first 20 minutes last night.
Quote:Yareet
As a Sale fan, I’d say we’ve been just as guilty of playing below our abilities. Witness the first 20 minutes last night.[/quote
.. and you should be rightly ashamed that they can only underperform for 20 mins .. if you want to properly be considered an underperforming side you need to put in the full 80 .
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/04/2018 09:49 by ChipsteadQuin.
After a no holds barred say what you like meeting at the training ground last Monday the players stood up and said that the system they have been playing all season is not and has not worked and is alien to the Quins way,, so what are they doing today? Still playing the same system,, what was the point of the clear the air meeting??? I don’t think there ever was a dressing room to lose it went ages ago
That's no surprise. I remember JK saying that he wanted the team to be more pragmatic and not run the ball from everywhere, which made sense based on how they'd been playing. Shame the players didn't buy into it. As others have said countless times, the old 'Quins way' stopped bearing fruit several years ago and other teams, when they need to, can turn it on far better than Quins.
Sounds like any incoming DOR will have his hands full.
Sounds like any incoming DOR will have his hands full.
I don't think you can change a way of playing in a week. If the players don't want to play the way the management wants them to but have trained for two seasons that way I think it will be next season before it's second nature again. IT has been commented that all the team aren't playing together and that they are not comfortable with how they are instructed to play and our inside man/woman has confirmed this. If this is down to JK alone then the right descision has been made. This however would indicate that he had lost the confidence of the players.
We are never going to know what has gone wrong. From the stands we have a talented squad on paper but they just don’t gel as a 15 on the pitch. Individual pieces of magic have got us through in the games we have won but these have been too few as it’s a strategy that can be easily countered by good defensive teams.
When we first joined as STH in 2000 we had the same problem. Maybe 7 or 8 of the 15 would seem to play ok with the others seemingly on “appearance money only”. Next game it might be a different 7 or 8 but rarely 15 at a time.
Teams like Tigers would intimidate us and I just wanted us to perform like they did....frightened that they’d let the others down. When Deano rocked up, the attitude changed and the game day 23 finally played for each other. This is the alchemy that needs to be rediscovered by the new coaching team.
When we first joined as STH in 2000 we had the same problem. Maybe 7 or 8 of the 15 would seem to play ok with the others seemingly on “appearance money only”. Next game it might be a different 7 or 8 but rarely 15 at a time.
Teams like Tigers would intimidate us and I just wanted us to perform like they did....frightened that they’d let the others down. When Deano rocked up, the attitude changed and the game day 23 finally played for each other. This is the alchemy that needs to be rediscovered by the new coaching team.
IMHO he hadn't lost the dressing room. That would be evident in a sharp downturn in performance over a relatively short number of weeks. As far as I can tell the team have been consistently toilet all seascon. So either this is the finest example of playing the long game a team has ever engaged in in undertaking a coup, or else the members of the squad really haven't been on message with the training / game-plan. As much I I like and respect the chaps, I don't think most of them have the cunning or intelligence to engage in 7 months of high level machiavellia.
And as for Easter not having a say leading to our lack of performance.... Really? REALLY?!? Sorry, I simply don't see this. The man is a grinning fool who simply doesn't have the nous to coach at the highest level. Or any level for that matter - Wimbledon are 15th out of 16 in ND2S. JK was DoR and by dint of that fact each Coach is responsible for his own area; are you really telling me that JK was meddling so much in Defence that Minty couldn't get his own successful brand of coaching over? Nah, sorry, don't buy it. Our Defence is garbage and Minty is responsible.
And as for Easter not having a say leading to our lack of performance.... Really? REALLY?!? Sorry, I simply don't see this. The man is a grinning fool who simply doesn't have the nous to coach at the highest level. Or any level for that matter - Wimbledon are 15th out of 16 in ND2S. JK was DoR and by dint of that fact each Coach is responsible for his own area; are you really telling me that JK was meddling so much in Defence that Minty couldn't get his own successful brand of coaching over? Nah, sorry, don't buy it. Our Defence is garbage and Minty is responsible.
How about this theory. The players all like JK and respect him having been head coach when we won the prem title. When he is appointed DOR he left the coaching to the new coaches who wanted to bring in some new ideas and methods.JK was ok with this. These didn't work or players weren't comfortable enough and not all implementing them. The coaches refused to drop the unsuccessful stuff even though the players weren't happy thus starting the slide in form. Then a split starts to form with those that can adapt and those that won't. The spiral continues after JK and coaches get contract extensions with the players thinking how are we going to get out of this position if nobody listens to us. By all accounts the news of JKs departure was not celebrated on Monday , quite the opposite it seems. Could it be that it's the coaches not the DOR that are unpopular but ultimately it's the DOR that's culpable.
Quote:Mayor West
How about this theory. The players all like JK and respect him having been head coach when we won the prem title. When he is appointed DOR he left the coaching to the new coaches who wanted to bring in some new ideas and methods.JK was ok with this. These didn't work or players weren't comfortable enough and not all implementing them. The coaches refused to drop the unsuccessful stuff even though the players weren't happy thus starting the slide in form. Then a split starts to form with those that can adapt and those that won't. The spiral continues after JK and coaches get contract extensions with the players thinking how are we going to get out of this position if nobody listens to us. By all accounts the news of JKs departure was not celebrated on Monday , quite the opposite it seems. Could it be that it's the coaches not the DOR that are unpopular but ultimately it's the DOR that's culpable.
I think that's quite a likely scenario.
I doubt even Ellis at his penny-pinching worst would have put JK in charge if the players didn't have a certain degree of respect for him, and I can certainly see a situation where the players don't like the new coaching ideas, particularly coming from inexperienced coaches in a couple of cases.
However even if that was the case, as DOR JK is/was responsible for managing the direction of the coaches, and managing the interaction between coaches and players. If he doesn't/didn't do that to the extent that there's a split and not everyone is playing to the game-plan, for me that's effectively losing the dressing room.
I agree this appears the most likely scenario and mirrors the situation at Northampton where Dorian West was arguably the bigger part of the problem than Mallinder.
Scrum and defence have been the most contentious areas of deterioration and require a complete rebuild. Who does that point to...
Sack Easter, Evans, Mapletoft immediately. Break the hold of the “old boys”’ on the dressing room and start again
Make the players play for their places.
It’s a huge risk - but without it we’re screwed
Make the players play for their places.
It’s a huge risk - but without it we’re screwed
I also believe this is the likely scenario - but the buck has to stop somewhere.
If the 'system' being promoted by Tofty and his coaching staff was a) failing to deliver results and b) leading to player dissatisfaction, then it was JK's job to deal with the problem.
It's hard to tell from the sidelines whether : i) he left them alone because he agreed with their model, ii) he lacked / failed to use his authority to deal with it, or iii) the coaching staff just ignored him and carried on as they wanted.
In all of these cases, I'd say it looks like a failure of leadership from JK to deal with an obvious issue.
I wish he had dealt with it as I think he's done a good job as DoR in many other respects (recruiting, contracts etc) - he seems to have just lacked decisiveness and / or authority when confronted by a fairly obvious problem in the coaching set-up.
If the 'system' being promoted by Tofty and his coaching staff was a) failing to deliver results and b) leading to player dissatisfaction, then it was JK's job to deal with the problem.
It's hard to tell from the sidelines whether : i) he left them alone because he agreed with their model, ii) he lacked / failed to use his authority to deal with it, or iii) the coaching staff just ignored him and carried on as they wanted.
In all of these cases, I'd say it looks like a failure of leadership from JK to deal with an obvious issue.
I wish he had dealt with it as I think he's done a good job as DoR in many other respects (recruiting, contracts etc) - he seems to have just lacked decisiveness and / or authority when confronted by a fairly obvious problem in the coaching set-up.
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