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Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
DOK (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 13:58

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
T-Bone (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 16:08
Care has been speaking a lot about the new bloke coming in turning things around, putting his stamp on the team, etc. I hope that privately he knows that, as a senior player and former captain, he needs to play an important role in that process, as well as ensuring he hits top form. It won;t all come from one bloke

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
CPB62 (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 18:53
The championship after relegation next season

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
blucherquin (IP Logged)
08 May, 2018 21:50
I think they just lifted it directly from the bbc podcast

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
DOK (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 07:17
Actually, if we can play our strongest side more consistently and we can get the players playing for each other and the shirt again, Danny is right. I don't look at that team and thing "Naaah! that team's never going to beat Gloucester or Sale". Remember it's a team that has put Saracens and Wasps to the sword this/last season. We got through the first half of the season still (just) on target for a top four finish and we'd already started the "horrendous injury list" excuse by then.

Oh, and to do this we need to sort out our defence and disciplinary problems, that's a no brainer!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2018 07:18 by DOK.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 09:56
I don't see the problem with what he said at all, every player in every club should feel this way or why else would you be playing if you don't feel like you can win.

In reality, you can win one off games against big teams or top 4 teams but you are a far way away from the Top 5, you have not been in the top 4 for 5/6 years and most of those players are now past their prime including Care so in reality, the goal next season should be getting into the top 6 and then build from there as I can't see anyway you get top 4 next year.

Exeter could easily be in their 3rd straight final this season, Sarries have made top four 9 straight years, Wasps are now a consistent top 4 team, Newcastle will only get better, Leicester barely missed the top 4 again, Bath have a team as good as yours, Gloucester also and Northampton will be better.

If Quins get top 6 next year, that will be a good achievement as I can't even see any team in the top 6 who you are currently better than.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
The Dead Baron (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 10:11
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
I don't see the problem with what he said at all, every player in every club should feel this way or why else would you be playing if you don't feel like you can win.
In reality, you can win one off games against big teams or top 4 teams but you are a far way away from the Top 5, you have not been in the top 4 for 5/6 years and most of those players are now past their prime including Care so in reality, the goal next season should be getting into the top 6 and then build from there as I can't see anyway you get top 4 next year.

Exeter could easily be in their 3rd straight final this season, Sarries have made top four 9 straight years, Wasps are now a consistent top 4 team, Newcastle will only get better, Leicester barely missed the top 4 again, Bath have a team as good as yours, Gloucester also and Northampton will be better.

If Quins get top 6 next year, that will be a good achievement as I can't even see any team in the top 6 who you are currently better than.

Can't really argue with much of that.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 10:19
Ok barnetsarrie we get the point, thanks....sad smiley



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Roaming Quin (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 11:27
Agree with Care there is no reason why the squad we have could not do a lot better maybe challenge for 2nd tier silverware (Anglo welsh/Europe) but as Barnet Sarrie says we are a long way off consistent top 6, mainly due to mindset but a little down to players.

If we get the right DOR or GM/HC combo we're halfway there, a little more recruiting (big nasty lock forward) one in the Bakkies Botha mold and I think we'd be up there.

Obviously we need to look to the future and continue to recruit and develop our academy. I do not expect whoever comes in to get us stright to Prem champions but would like to see the steady rise Baxter created with Chiefs and now look at their dominance.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Dave L (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 12:15
On the flip side it didnít take Newcastle long from going from 3 years of coming 11th to wrapping up a play off place before the final weekend of the season.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 12:19
That is because they have Dean Richards, who is one of the greatest DOR's in English Rugby. If you get someone like a Dean Richards and there are very few on earth like him , then you can also do that.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Dave L (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 12:34
Iím not doubting Deano as a DOR. We have some experience of him round here! Just that for the three years after they were promoted they came 11th 3 times. They then got to 8th last year and 4th this year. Theyíve made some astute signings in the last couple of years and have made very quick progress from the doldrums.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 12:39
I agree with you Dave, you can in 3 years make the top 4 for example, no reason why you could not if you had the right man with the right plan.

I would be looking at the Exeter model if i were the CEO at Quins, it is not just about making the top 4 once and not making it again, it is making sure you are there every year like Leicester did for ages, Sarries have done for 9 years and Exeter will probably do for the foreseeable future, that is what you want to happen at Quins.

Those things will not be fixed in a year, the cultural and structural issues in the club won't be fixed in one off season, it will take a few years to fix but get the right man and no reason why Quins should not be challenging consistently in the top 6 and even the top 4

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Dave L (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 12:49
There are a number of issues to be solved and I agree it wonít be solved in a year and these are issues that should never have occurred. The Exeter model is interesting, itís working very well so far. Itís possible that a greater number of their players will be selected for England this year and itíll be interesting to see how they get on with that. Well, Iím sure but itís a challenge they havenít faced yet. What do you attribute the Sarries jump between 08/09 and 09/10íto out of interest.

You seem very interested in us as a club by the way. I donít mean this in a bad way but genuinely curious to know why. I know weíre a comedy mess at the moment and everyoneís favourite laughing stock but it canít just be that!

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 13:03
Haha I live in the Richmond area at the moment and my in laws are massive Quins fans so I have to hear about Quins a lot, that's the reason for the interest.

In terms of the jump in sarries, I really think it was a clear shift from Brendan Venter culturally as to how the club will function and that cultural shift is why Sarries have been the most successful club this decade, we were a club that did not pay that much attention to the person when we recruited players and did not invest in our youth set up, those started to change under Venter.

Exeter run pretty much the same model, they don't recruit players they don't feel like fits the culture of their club and you can see why they are successful and Sarries is the same way, people make fun of the trips away during the season but over the last 10 years and currently, sarries have the most academy players playing in the premiership and most academy players in our squad and you can tell how very close the players are in the club and that shows in the way they play for each other on the field.


I think the biggest problem at Quins is the culture and there are players at the club who need to be shifted including some of your biggest players

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 13:06
That is also why I don't like the coaching set up, Mapletoft has been there for ages, Easter, Evans, these guys have been at the club for over 10 years and are part of the problem. I don't see what Marler who is suspended half the time, Care or even Brown consistently bring to the table and those guys are getting old now, it might be time to move on from a few of these old timers who are part of the problem at the club.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 13:06
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
, you have not been in the top 4 for 5/6 years
If Quins get top 6 next year, that will be a good achievement as I can't even see any team in the top 6 who you are currently better than.

We were 4th four years ago.

From memory you're also the guy who thinks Horwill wouldn't get into the top six sides...



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 13:07
Care was brilliant for most of this season.

We get it - you don't rate any of our players or coaches and are enjoying putting the boot in.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Dave L (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 13:14
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
That is also why I don't like the coaching set up, Mapletoft has been there for ages, Easter, Evans, these guys have been at the club for over 10 years and are part of the problem. I don't see what Marler who is suspended half the time, Care or even Brown consistently bring to the table and those guys are getting old now, it might be time to move on from a few of these old timers who are part of the problem at the club.

Mapletoft has been around too long and I can see that Easter has utterly failed to improve the defence. Jury is out on Nev. Brown isnít the player he was anymore and Iím aware half the world has always thought heís rubbish. Marler and Care still have plenty to contribute but JM in particular needs to switch his head on when on the pitch. Iíve lost patience with his and Sincklerís lack of discipline.

Iíd agree that the culture is good at Sarries and recent years has seen an end to the in your face arrogance of the Griffiths years but would you not say that Johann Rupertís cash certainly helped a little bit as well as the arrival of Dr Venter?

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 14:09
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
, you have not been in the top 4 for 5/6 years
If Quins get top 6 next year, that will be a good achievement as I can't even see any team in the top 6 who you are currently better than.

We were 4th four years ago.

From memory you're also the guy who thinks Horwill wouldn't get into the top six sides...

Okay I was off by a year. Also tell me the top 6 side that Horwill will get into, he won't get into the starting team at Exeter or Sarries or Wasps, maybe Newcastle or Leicester, Bath have so many second rows, they loaned out Attwood so again I can't even remember saying that but no he won't get into many if any top 6 sides and this is part of the problem, you have good players at Quins but you are talking about a soon to be 33 year old player and you expect him to get into top 6 teams really

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 14:18
Well blow me down with a feather! A well funded (cough) squad winning lots of things experience a sense of togetherness. The test of a great club is how they fare in more troubled and possibly, allegedly, maybe, less well funded times.


We shall see.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 14:20
Cash certainly helps Dave I agree but Sarries always had cash and won nothing until the culture became better and we started bringing in a home grown core of the club. That is when we started winning consistently and getting to finals. I will say the last 5 years is when we have started doing that consistently.

Culture is supremely understated and to me that is the biggest problem I see at the club from the outside looking in, too many comfortable players, coaches who should not be there.

In hindsight, I probably will keep Marler because he is a good player and still young enough, I do think Care is on the downside but you have no one better, Brown I was not in the Alex Goode camp, I am a sarries fan but Brown was better at international level until this year, I don't think he should have that jersey but that is another topic for another day.

My thing is when I look at Quins, with the right coaches, there is no reason why you can't challenge even next year for a top 6 place, you have some weakness especially at Hooker and maybe second row but you have a decent team and generally a good home record and to me produce talent better than anyone not named sarrries in the country, so that's a good base for a rebuild

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 14:28
Quote:
Scaramouche
Well blow me down with a feather! A well funded (cough) squad winning lots of things experience a sense of togetherness. The test of a great club is how they fare in more troubled and possibly, allegedly, maybe, less well funded times.

We shall see.

I mean this season was a great example when we lost 7/8 games on the bounce and got destroyed by Clermont at home, most clubs would have gone into a tailspin based on that without a strong culture, look at what happened here at Quins but we came out of that and finished the season strong and scored the most tries, points and conceded the least while getting a home semi even when we have had our worst year in about 7/8 years, that is what a strong culture gets you.

Look you can bring up money all you like and I am not even going to argue on that, the fact is Saracens has spent tons of money since the professional era started and we only started to really win 5 years ago, that is because of the culture of the club changed starting with Venter and we started producing home based talent and we have more academy players that we produced in our squad than any team in the premiership.

Exeter is the same way, you can choose to deceive yourself that is all about money and bury your head in the sand, Money does help, it won't win you a premiership title or 2 european titles, it certainly has not been the reason why Exeter will probably make their 3rd straight final this year or have won 2 of the last 3 AW cups. If money was all that mattered, Gloucester would have won tons of trophies in recent times

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 14:49
Part of sarries culture has come from huge money being spent on jollies overseas, player businesses, etc. We can't afford that.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 14:53
You can't Jammy but that is not the only way to go about it. That is why i used Exeter. In the west country, Exeter have less money than Bristol, Bath and Gloucester, much less and yet they are the profitable team amongst the lot and by far the most successful over the last 5 years.

They have built a very strong culture at their club that everyone buys into. Money can help with culture but if money bought good culture, Bristol, Gloucester and Bath would be in the top 4 in the premiership as they have as much money as anyone

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 14:54
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
, you have not been in the top 4 for 5/6 years
If Quins get top 6 next year, that will be a good achievement as I can't even see any team in the top 6 who you are currently better than.

We were 4th four years ago.

From memory you're also the guy who thinks Horwill wouldn't get into the top six sides...

Okay I was off by a year. Also tell me the top 6 side that Horwill will get into, he won't get into the starting team at Exeter or Sarries or Wasps, maybe Newcastle or Leicester, Bath have so many second rows, they loaned out Attwood so again I can't even remember saying that but no he won't get into many if any top 6 sides and this is part of the problem, you have good players at Quins but you are talking about a soon to be 33 year old player and you expect him to get into top 6 teams really


Wasps have one lock better than him. Tigers have none. Exeter regularly pick Dave Dennis, so...

Don't kid yourself, a hugely physical guy who's also an ex Australia and Reds captain would start for almost every team in this league.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Boonie (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 15:07
We can argue the toss about individual players, but the culture argument is sound. It's been argued about ad nauseum on this site that there is something wrong in the dressing room; the blame has been laid at the door of the DOR, the coaches, the CEO, and, in some cases, the players. You need all those elements to work together, but most of all you need the players to work together. The best placed folks to do that are the coaches, and I don't see them delivering. Example - loved Easter as a player, but have no idea at all what he is doing as a defence coach - and neither do the players.



"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to bleat about it all over the internet"

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 15:10
We will just have to agree to disagree on that one Jammy, I don't care that he is an ex australian captain and Exeter have a lot of physical locks and Sam Skinner who is an excellent lock and should be going on the tour to SA and Jonny Hill and they still have Mitch Lees who is every bit as physical.

Horwill is a good player and he would play at a lot of teams in the premiership but you said the top 6.

At sarries, he is not a starter or even on the bench, at Bath, he won't start or even make the bench especially when Attwood is back, Leicester have no locks so i agree, Newcastle he will start there, I don't think he starts at Exeter but you seem to do and Wasps maybe.


Point still remains he is a soon to be 33 year old lock in a league where most of the best players are in the 26-30 range and many younger than that, for context he is 13 years older than Isiekwe and about 10 years older than Itoje. He is not in his prime and will not be part of the long term rebuild at Quins. The future is bright at Quins, you have tons of young talent that will help in a rebuild like Smith, Marchant, Ibitoye, I don't see the point in bringing up a player clearly past his prime as some sort of example

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 15:15
Quote:
Boonie
We can argue the toss about individual players, but the culture argument is sound. It's been argued about ad nauseum on this site that there is something wrong in the dressing room; the blame has been laid at the door of the DOR, the coaches, the CEO, and, in some cases, the players. You need all those elements to work together, but most of all you need the players to work together. The best placed folks to do that are the coaches, and I don't see them delivering. Example - loved Easter as a player, but have no idea at all what he is doing as a defence coach - and neither do the players.

Totally agree Boonie, when you fix the culture and for me every single element from players, to coaches to management has some blame, everything else will fix itself. The biggest problem at Quins is not talent, that is not even amongst the top issues at the club. You have more talent than Newcastle for example and you could argue even Exeter, both are in the top 4 and you are 10th. That is not a talent issue, that is a culture issue and until that is fixed, you can bring in Beauden Barritt and Sam Whitlock and you still won't get the sustainable performances and excellence that the fans want

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Roaming Quin (IP Logged)
09 May, 2018 19:19
I think we should listen to BarnetSarrie (and iím Not picking a fight here) but Sarries tried to simply buy a team many times and failed its not till they changed the culture and bought the players in they had success and now they actually have a production line of talent.

I would be happy with top 6 next season and a steady climb. We cannot afford not to be in top 6.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Hortiquin (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 11:30
re Sarries and players businesses , can you give more detail, Im unaware of this.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Hortiquin (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 11:30
re Sarries and players businesses , can you give more detail, Im unaware of this.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 12:23
Something like The Jolly Hog perhaps? Speaking of which, I had a meal deal of pulled pork served to me by Josh last weekend. It was rank. Dried up and chewy. Binned it.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 19:15
Quote:
Hortiquin
re Sarries and players businesses , can you give more detail, Im unaware of this.

An example: [www.wolfpacklager.com]



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 17:36
Lager?...I guess that's what Saffa's prefer...



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
TeddingtonQuin (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 21:07
Quote:
DOK
Actually, if we can play our strongest side more consistently and we can get the players playing for each other and the shirt again, Danny is right. I don't look at that team and thing "Naaah! that team's never going to beat Gloucester or Sale". Remember it's a team that has put Saracens and Wasps to the sword this/last season. We got through the first half of the season still (just) on target for a top four finish and we'd already started the "horrendous injury list" excuse by then.
Oh, and to do this we need to sort out our defence and disciplinary problems, that's a no brainer!

There is (as I've pointed out to David Ellis more than once) something seriously wrong with our strength and conditioning. We cannot simply just be unlucky with injuries, there has to be more to it than that so sort the issue out and we will have the chance to put our best team out consistently



West Stand, Block FD, Row S (if renewed)
@JT075 #COYQ

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
DOK (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 21:54
Absolutely right, TQ! To be fair, David Ellis did say they were looking at precisely that point, but I think he said something like we had 25% more injuries than the next worse club? Anyway, it is on their list somewhere!

 
Re: Danny Care: Harlequins can challenge for titles
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 23:31
Quote:
DOK
Absolutely right, TQ! To be fair, David Ellis did say they were looking at precisely that point, but I think he said something like we had 25% more injuries than the next worse club? Anyway, it is on their list somewhere!

It's baffled me all season. Some of it is just bad luck (eg Cat, Sailli), but surely we can't have so much bad luck?


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