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Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Cookie (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 09:04
Joe, Kyle, Robbo and Browny tour. But Danny Care doesnít. Spencer and Robson have overtaken him.

If he is indeed out of the picture, this is great news for us as heíll be a 24/7/365 scrum half for us, which will solve a massive problem.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 09:21
Im not surprised Brown is in but I think a summer off would have done him good. Have a break, start next season fresh under a new DOR and get back into some form. Would also have given Jones the chance to try someone else out as I still dont think there is an obvious choice at FB if Brown is missing (Injured/out of form). I would have taken Woodward. Think Sinckler could have done with a break also.

Trinder and Armand unlucky to miss out but pleased Willis and Wilson are in (Wilson unlucky to be left out after Argentina). Good to see some other options at SH being given a chance.

As a side note, I saw it mentioned on twitter that there will be a surprise name in the Eng U20 squad. The only one that could spring to mind for me is Smith (thats if that rumour is true of course)

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
harryquins (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 09:23
It seems that Care, Marchant and Clifford were 'unavailable for selection' alongside players like Nowell, Lawes and Hartley so I'm not sure it means the end of England for Care. The mix of players 'unavailable' is a bit odd so I'm not sure of the reasoning behind it

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 09:25
From that list, we know all of those apart from Care are currently injured I believe??

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
quin_jon (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 09:28
the quote from englandrugby says that Care, Cole, Haskell and Wigglesworth are all rested, so not injured

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
blucherquin (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 09:42
Actually itís 5 - Nathan Earle also going to SA.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 09:52
Smith's named in the squad preparing for the game against the BaaBaas, but not in the main squad for the summer, so I'd say he would be very likely included in the U20s.

As for Care, I think it's a case of him being rested but I doubt that he's out of England selection completely. He suits England as the SH to come on and shift the game up a gear in the second half & run opposition defences ragged as their legs tire. He never seems to play as well when he starts in the White shirt.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 10:09
I think Care's future is dependent on how well the 2 younger players play in South Afica. Youngs is clearly the number one and that was made even more clear after the six nations but there is every chance that a strong summer by either of those two guys especially if they back it up with a strong start to next season and Care won't be in the 23 as both of them are younger and basically offer most of what care offers or at least Robson does, Spencer is more in the mould of Youngs

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Fursty (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 10:31
I know the last 6 months have been dire for Quins, but it wasn't that long ago that DC came on against a tiring Australia and tore them to shreds (and in the process firmly cemented himself as a finisher).

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
T-Bone (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 11:01
Quote:
Fursty
I know the last 6 months have been dire for Quins, but it wasn't that long ago that DC came on against a tiring Australia and tore them to shreds (and in the process firmly cemented himself as a finisher).

Exactly, and is England's most capped 9 going into a world cup season. Some people have very short memories.

Think Brown and Robshaw could have done with a rest, though Robshaw never looks like he needs it.

Lots of players mentioned as not being considered for various reasons. One player who I thought might have an outside chance who there's been no mkention of is Chisholm. I think Greenwood picked him is his touring XV, not just squad. I'm not saying he should have gone at all, but clearly Quins' dreadful form has not helped his cause.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 11:19
I'd have liked Robshaw to be rested for the tour. How long can he go on at the rate that he plays?

Maybe the tour with some strong coaches will help pull Kyle and (to a lesser extent) Joe back into line? Their discipline has been very poor in recent months.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Cookie (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 11:28
I would agree that DC hasnít been dropped, but there is a real danger for him now that Spencer or Robson will seize their opportunity.

I really donít understand how some of the Ďrestedí players are somehow more tired than those going. How are they more tired than the 10 players who were on the Lions tour?

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 11:36
Quote:
Cookie
Joe, Kyle, Robbo and Browny tour. But Danny Care doesnít. Spencer and Robson have overtaken him.
If he is indeed out of the picture, this is great news for us as heíll be a 24/7/365 scrum half for us, which will solve a massive problem.

Pedant Corner

That should be 24/7/52, not /365.

HTH.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 11:41
I agree with you Cookie and why I don't buy this whole rest argument. I think he left Care, Cole and Haskell behind because he wanted to look at alternatives and those players should all be concerned about their long term future with the team.

He talks about resting players, Care,Cole and Haskell did not start for the lions last summer, Itoje and Mako did and I still do not understand why when both of them are going on this tour, if anyone needs any rest, it is those two, not Haskell who has barely played this year or Care who is not a forward and was not involved in the lions tour.

I just don't buy the rest argument, not saying those players could not be involved in the team going forward and Cole especially as he did play for the lions but, if i am Care, I am hoping that Spencer/Robson do not impress Eddie as they have also been better all year in the league than him

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
FGGQuin (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 11:58
The one player of our's I would suggest deserves a "rest" this summer is Chris Robshaw. He looked like he was trying to play Exeter by himself at the weekend.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
blucherquin (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 12:05
The resting thing is clearly a public way of being nice. Guess weíll find out one day what he actually told them.

But DC hasnít had a good few months for us other than the odd flash of his usual genius. Heís cost us penalties and turnovers and been carded twice and spent most of the last two months flapping his arms pointlessly.

He also had some stinkers starting behind Englandís dodgy pack.

He was talking on Monday in the pod about looking forward to going out there so clearly has only just been told.

He certainly doesnt need a rest.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 12:09
I mean he rested Wigglesworth, in the official reports, it says he has rested 4 players (Care, Cole, Haskell and Wiggy)

You are having a laugh, Wiggy needs rest, Care needs rest, Haskell needs rest but 2 players who started for the lions, started this season, played so many games, played all through the six nations do not need rest.

Itoje played 36 games last year and he has played all but 1 game for England this year, Mako is the exact same and in Itoje's case, he does not even get benched as Eddie has never subbed him and Sarries rarely ever sub him so it's 80 minutes all the time and he does not deserve a rest.

I am not paying any attention to Eddie's words, those 4 players should be worried about their future as Cole is realistically the only one of the 4 who you can say deserves some rest as he did play for the lions and played about 34 games last season at TH

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
T-Bone (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 12:17
Just because they are being left behind and perhaps not in need of being rested, why should they be worried about their future? Just because you want to look at some other players does't mean those being left behind are in danger of not making the RWC just because they aren't injured or are in less of a need of rest than others.

Maybe Eddie wanted to look at some new or fringe players but also realised he nbeeded to take some experienced ones, so he chose which of the senior players to take and which to leave behind.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 12:27
Wiggy, Care or Haskell, none of them over the last 12 months has been a starter for England when everyone has been fit.

Itoje and Mako are two of the first names on the team sheet and I repeat have played way too many games and they are the ones in need of rest.

What he has done is take some younger players at SH to have a look at them and he has taken 8 backrow players, why we need 8 back row players is beyond me when he could have taken one more second row and given Itoje some time off or Mako some time off.

In terms of importance to England, Mako and Itoje are far more important to England winning the world cup than Care or Wiggy and I don't get why you keep playing even after they have had a long season after the long season they had last year. They played until mid July last year and now they will be playing until the end of June. 11 month season, how does that make any sense when the goal is to win the world cup.

Care, Haskell and Wiggy are in danger of missing the next world cup if the young players in their positions play well on this tour as Care was poor in the six nations and was poor for Quins, if Spencer and Robson light it up on tour and have a good season next year and Care has a poor one, he might not go to the world cup, it is all on him to play well for Quins to start next season but his position in the 23 especially is under threat

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Dave L (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 13:04
Surprised Mako and Itoje are going, both need a rest. Care needs a kick up the arris. Wouldnít expect Wiggy or Haskell to go to the World Cup anyway. Robshaw needs a rest too.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 16:42
Honestly I think care is nailed on at 21, but has no hope of being 9. Eddie needs to know if either of these guys can cut it at 9 if Youngs is crocked/ can't pass or whatever.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 17:10
I would not be so sure Rodney, I think this tour will determine that. I still think at the moment Care is ahead of the 2 but, if one of them has a blinder on tour, that could change very easily.

Youngs is clearly the number one and will be the number one at the world cup, I think Care will go as one of the 3 for his experience but, I will wait until the end of the summer before saying he is nailed on at 21, a lot can happen between now and end of June.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
blucherquin (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 18:53
Iím very surprised any of the lions are touring. Player welfare my @#$%&.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 19:13
Player welfare does not exist in England Blucher, that is a very alien concept. These guys are just flogged year in year out and Eddie is going to take them and flog them in training and they will then play 2 games at altitude against a tough and physical SA team. The only way you get rest in England is to be injured

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
10 May, 2018 20:02
I donít think any Quins players deserve an England tour place except Robshaw who could use a rest. Good to finally see Dan Robson, & the other DC, gain selection.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
blucherquin (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 07:04
Quote:
QuinAlan
I donít think any Quins players deserve an England tour place except Robshaw who could use a rest. Good to finally see Dan Robson, & the other DC, gain selection.

Thatís a bit odd - why donít Marler, Sink and Brown ďdeserveĒ a tour.

As it goes, think Marler should be allowed to rest, Sink needs the tour to prove he can stop being a child and Brown is 50/50 on form and could maybe use a break.

But what do you mean by ďdeserveĒ?

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 10:39
You think they have all excelled for their club this season then?

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Cookie (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 11:42
Quote:
QuinAlan
You think they have all excelled for their club this season then?

Quite. And if DCís being left home to look at other 9s, why are we taking 4 Lions front row who must need a break?

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
blucherquin (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 15:06
Quote:
QuinAlan
You think they have all excelled for their club this season then?

But thatís not what itís about entirely is it. If Quins are awful doesnít mean you donít want Robshaw for England.

Lions need a break,didnít get one.

Explanations make no sense but i wouldnít say they donít ďdeserveĒto tour.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Cairns Family (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 17:25
Second hand. And from last season. Quote from Eddie They might not be playing well for their club. But they're good players.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 19:13
Quote:
Fursty
I know the last 6 months have been dire for Quins, but it wasn't that long ago that DC came on against a tiring Australia and tore them to shreds (and in the process firmly cemented himself as a finisher).

Worth remembering that Youngs was really, really bad for Leicester earlier in the season and not much better for England. People might be being a bit hasty anointing him as the nailed-on starter.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 21:15
He has been the starter for all of the time he has been with England over the last 6 years maybe more so he is the nailed on starter

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 21:54
Yes. But in that time he's also been the better player. He's not getting any younger and he was garbage earlier this season for club and country, so assuming he'll retain his place and regain his form is a little presumptuous.

This thread is about the future, not the past.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
11 May, 2018 23:57
I won't say he was garbage this season, he had a bad patch but garbage, I don't think so. He will regain his place because he still has by far the most complete skill set of all the scrum halves in the league for international rugby, when a scrum half comes along and has a more complete skill set, then I would gladly want to move on from Youngs

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 00:01
I will say he was garbage. He was genuinely absolutely awful. He retained all the worst of his passing, his kicking game went completely to pot, and his running game deserted him. He was properly, properly bad.

He does not have a complete skill set. He is still the worst passer of the lot. He's also not exactly particularly bright. Robson is still somewhat inconsistent, but he's a much better passer, a devastating runner, and a decent kicker.

I accept that Youngs brings great defensive work and usually pinpoint kicking to go with his occasionally good running game, but his passing has always been iffy. If he shows anything like the form of earlier in the season, he absolutely should not retain his place. I also accept that it's been an incredibly trying year for him, so it's entirely possible his subterranean from was largely down to off-field pressures.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 01:24
Quote:
Thatís a bit odd - why donít Marler, Sink and Brown ďdeserveĒ a tour.

Because the first two are infantile man-babies who could do with a summer of therapy and the third is a shadow of his former self.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
1908 (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 07:20
Talking of infantile, the exclusion of Armand and Ewers is just that.

There is no justification for them not being there in SA. Mystified.....and annoyed....as to why Jones has not included them.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Yareet (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 09:12
Quote:
1908
Talking of infantile, the exclusion of Armand and Ewers is just that.
There is no justification for them not being there in SA. Mystified.....and annoyed....as to why Jones has not included them.

The obvious justification is that Jones is Australian and therefore his natural instinct is to run down Englandís World Cup chances.

First he builds us up into world beaters. Then phase two is to gradually make us worse and worse until we end up losing to Tonga and (as a final act of ignominy) the USA.

Or (this is just a thought, mind) Jones is highly competitive and will do whatever possible to win. He will watch players from around the Prem and beyond who may be eligible for England. Heíll have training camps where he can assess the playersí fit in terms of style of play and (just as importantly) culture.

From these camps he will select the squad he think is most likely to achieve the objectives he has been set; culminating in a successful run in Japan.

You may not agree with his choices but there are two justifications for you.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 09:39
Quote:
1908
Talking of infantile, the exclusion of Armand and Ewers is just that.
There is no justification for them not being there in SA. Mystified.....and annoyed....as to why Jones has not included them.

Armand can feel hard done by. Ewers? He's spent most of his career on the treatment table and he's possibly the slowest flanker in the Premiership.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
1908 (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 12:32
I would agree about Ewers's injury record, Jammy. But he's fit now and he is a machine. Hits rucks like a tractor and tackles with real venom. He makes the hard yards and has fantastic hands. He is just the abrasive and hard style of back row forward needed in SA.

And I'm not so sure he is as slow as you are suggesting!

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 12:42
Fantastic hands?! He can offload occasionally but he's not exactly chucking out pinpoint 30m passes. He's a player I'd love to have available for Quins but he's got some real downside (he really is slow, and he's not a lineout option). You can hardly blame Eddie for not looking at him given how rarely he's been fit...

Having said that he does probably fit the mould for Eddie's stated aim of having a brutal "English" style pack (even if he is African)



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 13:12
I think it depends who he plays with. A back row of Robshaw, Billy V and Ewers would not work, a backrow of Ewers, Simmonds and Armand compliment each other really well. Thing is, Ewers is not as good as Robshaw or Billy V to displace them (in my opinion of course)

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 14:41
I want him to play Willis, Curry and Billy in the back row but it won't happen. I think that would be the most balanced back row.

Jammy i disagree on Ben Youngs mate, I am not his biggest fan by any stretch but he is so much better than the other scrum halves and we saw with 3 games of Care and that was a disaster than starting at 9 and playing 15 minutes when everyone is tired is a whole different ball game. Let's see what Robson does but Youngs brings a lot of stability and control to that 9 jersey and I have still not seen that with Robson, the controlling aspect of the game but hopefully he gets a chance and we will see

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
T-Bone (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 19:04
Youngs can't pass very well, which is worrying for a 9. The commentary about him reminds of nick Evans at the end. "a poor box kick by youngs. A collector's item" "A missed kick by Evans, Rare as hens teeth". Both very common. Care had a stinking 3,games for England along with a lot of other players, including mako and maro. England were crap. Quins were crap. It's been three months of rugby. These things change.

 
Re: Four Quins To SA, But No DC
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 21:15
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
I want him to play Willis, Curry and Billy in the back row but it won't happen. I think that would be the most balanced back row.
Jammy i disagree on Ben Youngs mate, I am not his biggest fan by any stretch but he is so much better than the other scrum halves and we saw with 3 games of Care and that was a disaster than starting at 9 and playing 15 minutes when everyone is tired is a whole different ball game. Let's see what Robson does but Youngs brings a lot of stability and control to that 9 jersey and I have still not seen that with Robson, the controlling aspect of the game but hopefully he gets a chance and we will see

Yeah nah. Care was not a disaster. His kicking was actually on point for once, all he did wrong was not bring the same level of attacking flair he normally does; primarily because Ford demands a lot of ball. A disaster is throwing intercepts, kicking straight out, passing above people's heads, etc. None of that happened (but has happened in the past a few years back)

Agree on control, Youngs can stick to a game plan pretty well. Particularly Eddie's game plan.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis


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