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Browny - canít stop passing
blucherquin (IP Logged)
14 May, 2018 19:15
After spending the last five years never once knowingly passing the ball - heís no 5 in the Premiership stats for offloads this year.

At least someone is working on their game.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/05/2018 19:16 by blucherquin.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Rocker (IP Logged)
14 May, 2018 23:03
(Sm6)

He always did pass, it was a myth that he didn't. He is still quality, but he's lost a bit of speed. I think he needs some more of the aggression back, he always played better angry.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
15 May, 2018 00:00
Offloads aren't really passes winking smiley



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
15 May, 2018 09:57
Do you come here often? That's a pass.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
GP2110 (IP Logged)
15 May, 2018 10:25
the criticism of brown was that he would take contact and never pass despite having players outside him. offload stats are irrelevant to that criticism IMO - all it suggests is that, when Brown is tackled (after going into contact), he has managed to get the ball away by offloading it.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
thomh (IP Logged)
15 May, 2018 10:36
Quote:
Rocker
(Sm6)
He always did pass, it was a myth that he didn't. He is still quality, but he's lost a bit of speed. I think he needs some more of the aggression back, he always played better angry.

It's absolutely not a myth. Whatever you think of Brown as a player, and I personally think that between 2013-2015 he was one of the world's top 2 or 3 full backs, it's without question that he has a tendency to keep ball in hand rather than to distribute, which at times limits the attack of the teams he plays for. He has been renowned for always beating the first man in part because he almost always tries to beat the first man, rather than looking to involve support.

I think when this chat last came up I used the Daly try against Wales as an example. If Brown rather than Ford had collected the loose ball, we wouldn't have scored the try. It's not that he can't pass - just that when he gets the ball his instinct is to plot his way round the onrushing defender, with passing as a secondary option. Ford and Farrell on the other hand immediately looked to spread it wide and it ended with Daly going over in the corner.

[www.youtube.com]

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
blucherquin (IP Logged)
15 May, 2018 11:52
He actively seeks out contact with the ball - drives me mad.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
CPB62 (IP Logged)
15 May, 2018 12:04
But could it also be seen he has elected to pass on the responsibility !!!

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
15 May, 2018 13:27
Quote:
CPB62
But could it also be seen he has elected to pass on the responsibility !!!

I think there's something in that. He will certainly take the contact rather than pass to someone else to take the contact.



BB

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 08:33
The thing is, if your team mates (and the oppo) know what you are going to do ie bosh it up the middle then the oppo are watching you all the time and maybe committing one extra to the tackle to stop you, all of which should give you a man spare somewhere...Plus, Mikey very rarely loses the ball and always sets it back beautifully for the scrummy. What Mikey does is not the end of a move, it is the beginning of the next one.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 08:41
Not sure he always sets the ball back. We didnít come to many home games last season but for the previous 2 or 3 years Mike was starting to get turned over more and losing the ball when tackled. Also he was unable to cut the lines he did say 5 or 6 years ago when he was in his prime but not picked for England.
Itís a great shame he wasnít picked when he was such a good full back.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 09:54
Mike Brown was a great full back and in the past, maybe between 2012-2016, I would say he was better than anyone in rugby at full back at international level not named Ben Smith, Israel Dagg or Israel Folau, he was no where near those guys but he was probably better than everyone else but even then at his peak, he was terrible at getting the ball out and passing and offloads does not change that stat, he kills and dies with the ball way too often and his tendency to die with the ball rather than distribute was way too obvious in many games, that is just who he is

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
blucherquin (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 10:08
Quote:
Kent Fan
Not sure he always sets the ball back. We didnít come to many home games last season but for the previous 2 or 3 years Mike was starting to get turned over more and losing the ball when tackled. Also he was unable to cut the lines he did say 5 or 6 years ago when he was in his prime but not picked for England.
Itís a great shame he wasnít picked when he was such a good full back.

Youíre spot on - but he sorted that out in past 18 months

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 17:36
He was easily as good as Folau during that season when he was awesome in the AIs and player of the six Nations.

The head to head battle was a total no contest, too.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
thomh (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 17:52
Yeh it's easy to be blinded by Folau's athleticism, but Brown was clearly more effective than him that season.

I don't buy the idea that Brown was already past his best by then, if only he'd been picked earlier etc. at all though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/05/2018 17:58 by thomh.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 17:46
I totally disagree Jammy, there is not a single international coach that would take Brown over Folau at any point in their career.

Also there is no single team, including the all blacks that Folau will not get into ever since he started playing rugby and there are many Brown will not get into.

Brown was a very good full back, played loads of games and deserves to be acknowledged as one of the best full backs at least of recent times, Folau has extreme athletic ability that you can never coach and I know you guys love Brown on here and fair enough but I will repeat, there is not a single international coach who would have ever picked him over Folau, head to head does not mean anything in rugby at all, take Folau and Hooper out of that Aussie team and that team is completely garbage, the same cannot be said for Brown

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
thomh (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 18:10
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
I totally disagree Jammy, there is not a single international coach that would take Brown over Folau at any point in their career.

You're either deliberately being a bit chippy about this for some reason, or you've genuinely forgotten how good Brown was in 13/14. Either way, the statement I've pulled out there is just plain wrong.

Here's McGeechan on him, from March 2014

[www.telegraph.co.uk]


"Want to know how good he is at the moment? Well, for a man who was not on the Lions tour to Australia last summer ... he would now be an automatic choice in the Test side.

...

Brown is as good as there is at 15. And by that I mean in world terms, too. He compares favourably with anyone: the two Israels, the New Zealander Dagg and the Australian Folau, and Ireland’s Rob Kearney, who has been in exceptional form."

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 18:43
I disagree, he was good in 13/14 and this is not me even being difficult and Dagg I can see, even Piatau who is more talented, most of his prime has been outside NZ so we never saw it with the all blacks but Folau, who in 2013 was in his first year of union and Ben Smith for me are the only back 3 players in the last 5 years who will walk into any test side, either at wing or full back, no other player can say the same, as good as Brown was that year, he still did not get chosen for the lions tour, a team Folau would have walked into. Brown was very good and he's the most capped England player and a really good player but he is not Ben Smith or Folau in my opinion, a guy who averages a try every other game

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 18:45
Also if you look at it objectively and the only aspect of rugby that he is better than Folau at is kicking most likely, not in attack, not passing, not offloads, not scoring tries, defensively I might give Brown an edge but Folau is not bad defensively and that is why last year he was nominated for world player of the year even in a terrible Aussie team, if he played for the all blacks, he would shatter most records in rugby and he still might based on how many tries he scores

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
BuckQuin (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 19:58
Does anyone else not think that Folau is a bit of a glorified winger? Bit overrated imo. He only plays full back because Oz don't have a wealth of options currently.

He has the athleticism, granted - but doesn't have the rugby brain that Brown or various other top class full backs have. Definitely not the all-rounder that Brown is/was. I'm sorry, but tries per game is not how I rate my full backs. Comparing their respective peak attacking abilities is subject to way too many variables. So Folau gets over the chalk a lot - meaning he's in the right place a lot. What else does he do better than other FBs that you specifically want your FB to do?

Brown at his peak over Folau at his peak any day of the week given that we're talking specifically about the #15 shirt. Sorry, but Brown's one of the best all-round FULL BACKS I've ever seen.

Naturally, this is all totally subjective. I do think pundits are way too quick to build bandwagons when a player is athletically freakish. Granted, Folau has a particular anatomical makeup that makes him a very good international rugby player, but rugby is such a mental and instinctive game too. It's too easy to get carried away with players like Folau but I just don't buy it. Physically he's got it all but that doesn't mean he knows how to use it. I won't be surprised to see him shifted back out to the wing when Oz have a better option at 15.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 21:07
This is a good debate and I like it, I do think you guys are being very biased, well you BuckQuin, Brown is going to go down as a good international player, Folau has already been nominated as one of the 5 best players in the world for world player of the year twice i think now and he has only played the sport for 5 years, again brown who could not make the lions is no where close to a world player of the year list so best all around 15's, in what way.

Also i disagree about the rugby brain part that you mentioned about Folau, he does have really good positional sense, I would give Brown the edge there but Folau is miles ahead in attack by any measurement of judging an attacking player and Brown dying with the ball all the time, you dock points there, I have never seen a rugby full back as good in the air as Folau so Brown is not better under the high ball, positional sense, I would give Brown a slight edge but that is about it and maybe kicking, I cannot see anything else that Brown does better and on attack even close to Folau. Brown is a good player, he will be remembered as a very good full back who retired as Englands most capped full back.

Folau would not only if he stays in rugby catch and break Cullen's record and i bet he does it by next year as he is only 14 tries away and he scored about 14 last year, he is also a 3 sport athlete, to play elite level sport in 3 different sports is unreal, like i said i can get the quins bias but in 20 years, Brown is a good player who won loads of caps, Folau is a great player who broke a ton of records in rugby and also played 3 sports at the highest level

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 21:14
Also for what it's worth, I cannot think of any player that I would consider one of the best of all time or even one of the best at the time they were playing who has never played for the lions and regardless of whether you like Gatland or not, a guy who is very special does not get left out of a lions squad let alone a lions team.

Brown is very good, I am not even like most sarries fans who bring up Goode as I think Brown was better than Goode at international level but you would not even have a Folau vs Goode debate if he played in England, there have been calls for Mike Brown to not be England full back for most of his career from rugby journalists, ex coaches, players etc.

You never hear that with people who i consider exceptional talents, you don't hear people talking about BOD's position in the team or Richard Hill or Martin Johnson or even more recently in the england team now, you don't hear Itoje being called out to not play by most rugby journalists or Daly. Exceptional talents garner almost universal acclaim and you rarely ever hear people debating their place in the team.

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
thomh (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 21:43
Barnetsarrie12

Your claim was the no international coach would have picked Brown over Folau at any stage of their careers. Whatever their merits these days - that’s just false (see the McGeechan article for example).

No one is claiming he’ll go down as one of the world’s all time great full backs - or that he’s currently a world leading player - but for a season or two he was a genuinely exceptional international, and won the Six Nations Player of the Year award in 2014 as a result. That’s not remotely controversial and I don’t see why you’re so vehemently denying it.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 21:36
I agree that he was, he had a really good season post lions in 2014 and for that season he was exceptional. Remember the first thing I said is that for a period of 2-3 years, the only full backs I would take over him would have been Folau and Ben Smith.

He was clearly better in my mind than any one else for 2-3 years

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
BuckQuin (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 21:50
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Also for what it's worth, I cannot think of any player that I would consider one of the best of all time or even one of the best at the time they were playing who has never played for the lions and regardless of whether you like Gatland or not, a guy who is very special does not get left out of a lions squad let alone a lions team.
[...]You never hear that with people who i consider exceptional talents, you don't hear people talking about BOD's position in the team or Richard Hill or Martin Johnson or even more recently in the england team now, you don't hear Itoje being called out to not play by most rugby journalists or Daly. Exceptional talents garner almost universal acclaim and you rarely ever hear people debating their place in the team.

These two points are where we see things very, very differently.

1. Do I even need to say anything about Gatland's Lions selections? Please don't make me waste valuable time typing out what you already know to be true. Purely on merit, Brown should have been a Lion. Tick.

2. This is my problem with rugby journalism - and sports journalism as a whole. It's the abstract concept known as "hype" but it's very, very real. Example: the amount of times and consistency with which Ben Youngs has started for England (and by the way I'm not saying Danny Care is the answer). Do I really have to explain this further? I think my point with Folau is it's very easy to get carried away with the flashy things he does whenever they get screamed out in commentary, but, if you ask me, those things are better suited to a winger. I dispute whole heartedly the idea that he's better in the air - and this idea that he's somewhat brilliant in the air, once again, has come from journos going "oh, look, he's tall and sinewy - must be good in the air - note to self: every time he does take a high ball I must sing praises". I don't think it's even as conscious as that but you can tell they're conflating athletic ability with overall ability. Switch off the commentary just one time and judge a Mike Brown of 3/4 years ago to the equivalent peak of Folau's career (you choose the game/season). Judge the flashy stuff on an equal footing to the dogged stuff. Judge the all-round game of each player and I beg you to plead the case that Folau is a better full back. Stronger athlete, sure. Quicker, sure. But those two things do not a great full back make.

This all comes with the caveat that I'm sure I am biased, just as everyone is. Brownie's one of my favourite players and he's a Quins player, but among my favourite ever players there actually aren't that many other Quins. Jason Robinson, Richard Hill and Neil Back were my chosen 3 from the World Cup winning era (and by the way, Jason Robinson was a great winger, not a great full back!) My current favourite English up and comer is Jack Willis of Wasps. I back Harlequins and England but first and foremost I back rugby and I like to give players the credit they deserve. Brownie has never had that from the wider rugby community, for whatever bizarre reason, and that's the bandwagon that has developed around his name. I'll continue to refute it, because it's largely based on horse poo. Sadly, I don't feel the tide is ever going to turn in his favour because I will gladly admit his best years are behind him now, but I do hope when the archive videos come out in 10 years time, people will realise just how undervalued he was.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
16 May, 2018 23:12
Brown was by many miles the best 15 in 2013. Unfortunately Lancaster gave hats every excuse not to pick him by sticking him on the wing behind Alex Goode.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 08:18
Peak Brown tore it up against everyone in attack and was superb at everything else bar the distribution game. Peak Folau is a freak of an athlete who is a better attacker, phenomenal under the high ball, but never more than average in defence and with no kicking game to speak of. He's a flawed but dangerous winger masquerading as a fullback, and just about every Aussie fan I know wants him on the wing.

Brown is nowhere near that standard now. But starting with his work out of position on the wing, and ending with that horrific knockout against Italy, he was one of the best in the world.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 09:19
I guess maybe it is some sort of unconscious bias that I may have that i don't know but I have never ever thought of Mike Brown as a great player at all, not in any capacity and while I agree with some of the things you guys are saying, I still contend that it is slight bias on your part.

Mike Brown at no point in his career has been one of the top 10 best players in rugby and Folau has been, whether he is a wing/full back is up for debate, but to me he is a special player and I will not lump Mike Brown into that category. Since 2003, England players have been good but not great until recently where you have a few young ones who you have seen make a big impact on the lions and their clubs and they have been nominated for world player of the year, ie Itoje in 2016 and last year.

BuckQuin to say that Folau is not great in the air to me shows you either don't watch him or you are biased against him, the guy was known as special in the air in rugby league and he played aussie rules where players are much better in the air than rugby and you can pick out areas of his game where he is weak but definitely not aerially, that is where he is arguably the best in rugby.

Also I don't get your flashy player point, there is nothing wrong with being flashy, the best players in the world are "flashy" and their impact on the game is clear for all to see especially with backs, I hear that all the time with this unseen work comment which i find to be demeaning to the player being spoken about and also the fans like we cannot comprehend what a player is doing on the field. I will go back to my Gatland point, in 2013, Mike Brown was playing on the wing and was not even the first choice full back with his national team so how is Gatland meant to pick him as one of the full backs so Gatland was right, in 2017, I don't see what he did to make it, if he had made it, would i have complained nope but he was not an open/shut case like many other players are. He was great in the post lions year of 2014 or that six nations but that had no impact on the lions.


I don't want to be too negative to him and like i said I would have picked him over any NH full back for about a season or two but he has been a good player for me and never world class, whether you think Folau is a winger or full back, he is a world class player and for most of his career, if you named the top 10 players in rugby, he would be among the list, that does not apply to Mike Brown

Now i must make clear that I am only talking about international rugby and not club rugby, I don't care what players do in club rugby when i discuss international rugby so just had to make that disclaimer and like you BuckQuin, most of my fav international players are non saracens or in your case non quins

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 11:47
You constantly don't rate any of our players so this isn't a shock. But you're wilfully ignoring what we're saying about that period when Brown was, by any metric, one of the best in the world. That's why he was England's player of the series, six nations player of the tournament, an England icon, a cult hero for the fans, and having a huge impact on every game he played in.

It didn't last, more's the pity, but to pretend he wasn't turning in world class performances is just silly.

As for Gatland, Brown is a career fullback who played wing because his form demanded he be picked somewhere. Not playing fullback for England for a few games while playing fullback to a very high standard at premiership and European level should not have counted against him. The fact that he moved to fullback that summer and kept the shirt while turning in fantastic displays shows Gatland made the wrong call.

But hey, Halfpenny kicks goals.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/05/2018 11:47 by Jammy Git.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 12:46
I do like some of your players Jammy and again when i am discussing Brown in this context, I don't care who he plays for, some people cannot seperate club and country with players, I am able to. I don't like Mike Brown who plays for Quins as you are a london club and the only other london club, I prefer Alex Goode when it comes to club rugby, with international ugby, I like Mike Brown and I prefer him to Alex Goode, that is the difference


Come on, this is what I mean that a lot of Quins fans severely overrate players from the club, an England icon, a cult hero for the fans, Mike Brown, you must be having a laugh there is no single english player in the country who I would describe in those terms and players like Itoje and Farrell are more accomplished from a team and personal point of view than Mike Brown and I still will not call them icons as both have been nominated for world player of the year twice and named european player of the year.

There is no single player in the England team who deserves the term icon, that is demeaning to the term icon, Martin Johnson is an icon, Lomu is an icon, Mccaw is an icon, BOD is an icon, Mike Brown who had a good autumn series and a six nations is not an icon, that is having a laugh.

Even currently playing, only a few players and they mostly all play for NZ who deserve the term icon, If Mike Brown is an icon, what does that make Brodie Retallick, kieran Read, Warburton, Faletau, Ben Smith, Pocock, Beauden Baritt, Owen Franks, Julian Savea, Aaron Smith what does that make those players, most of those guys have played multiple games for the lions, won world cups and in the case of 3 of the NZ players, have been named world player of the year, some have won 2 world cups and Baritt has been named world player of the year twice.


Mike Brown is a good player but even in the current England team, if you want to start using the word icon for Mike Brown then what then is Farrell, Itoje, Billy Vunipola, Elliot Daly, Dan Cole, Mako Vunipola, Ben Youngs, every single one of those players is more accomplished from a team and personal level than Brown and have had higher peaks in their career than Brown so what then do we call them since Brown is an icon and a cult hero for the fans, what do we call Itoje who had his own song at the lions tour and people from 4 nations were singing his name, is he also an icon. I mean that is just ridiculous

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
BuckQuin (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 12:53
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Mike Brown is a good player but even in the current England team, if you want to start using the word icon for Mike Brown then what then is Farrell, Itoje, Billy Vunipola, Elliot Daly, Dan Cole, Mako Vunipola, Ben Youngs, every single one of those players is more accomplished from a team and personal level than Brown and have had higher peaks in their career than Brown so what then do we call them since Brown is an icon and a cult hero for the fans, what do we call Itoje who had his own song at the lions tour and people from 4 nations were singing his name, is he also an icon. I mean that is just ridiculous

(Sm22)(Sm22)(Sm22)

Sorry, what were we talking about again?

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 13:13
Does he actually post on the Sarries board or just enjoy needling us?



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 13:14
Jesus Christ. Talk about going completely overboard.

Yes, Itoje and Farrell are England icons. And fans adored Brown for his talent and drive, for the ridiculous heart on his sleeve passion and determination, and for the great things he did in an England shirt.

The guy is England's most capped fullback by a country mile, has had awards domestically and internationally, appeals to the general public England fans because of his 100% effort style and clutch plays, and you're pretending he's a nobody compared to guys like Elliot Daly and Ben Youngs. Drop the pretence about being Mr Neutral, it's desperately unconvincing.

Brown has had England player of the series in an Autumn international campaign featuring Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and Samoa. He's been Six Nations player of the tournament. He's been England player of the season. He's been Premiership player of the season. He is England's most capped fullback. He is England's vice captain.

You are absolutely nuts if you think that's an average player, and even nuttier if you don't think it makes him an England icon. Guys like Daly would kill to end their careers in that sort of company.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 13:36
Ben Youngs is England's most capped scrum half and has actually won more caps than Brown while also being younger, he has played for the lions and would be a 2 time lions tourist but for the unfortunate incident last year with his brother's wife, he has also won tons of awards domestically and internationally, actually that is a lie.

Neither Brown or Youngs has won loads of awards, Brown was named autumn player of the series (Something that Ben Youngs also won in 2016) and six nations player of the series once so again I won't go overboard with plenty of international awards. Ben Youngs has also won more trophies than Mike Brown so please tell me how and why Ben Youngs will kill to have a career like Mike Brown when he already arguably has had a better career as he has won more and played for the ultimate team any home nations player aspires to play for, that is the lions and he is also younger.

Yes Scaramouche, I do post on the sarries board and we are talking about Mike Brown the England player, not Mike Brown the quins player, as you have seen, I have not made a single mention of Quins as i don't care about that aspect of his game.

Again Daly is 25 years old, at his age, he has done way way more than Mike Brown ever did at his age, he starts in the England team, he played and started 3 tests for the British and Irish Lions, oh and he was also named autumn player of the series this past year so why again would he kill for Mike Brown's career, that is just delusion on your part.

Mike Brown is not an average player, no one said he is, I just said he is not an icon and my crime is saying that for 2-3 years, he was the 3rd best full back in world rugby, I guess that shows how much i really hate him, I Called him 3rd best in the world, I guess if i don't call a player who happens to play for Quins best in the world then I definitely hate him, come on

Also Itoje and Farrell are not icons, they might be someday, they are not icons today, not in my definition

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 13:38
The only two things I would add is

Despite all the calls for Brown to be left out he is still continually picked for England. Calls for Watson to replace him and that didn't go great really. I think he should have missed the SA tour, not because he needs to be dropped, because if he gets injured who will replace him??? You need a back up plan. Do I think he is playing as well as he was a few years ago, def not, but he is still a quality player.

As for players that should have played for the Lions, I would say a prime example is Robshaw. Another who is constantly under the spotlight and yet another who is consistently one of Englands better players (In an area we have great strength).

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 13:45
So we have:

Conveniently missing out an England player of the season award in order to make a comparison more favourable
Attempting to make out I said Ben Youngs hasn't also had a storied career
Making claims on behalf of Elliot Daly based on what he might do in the future
Pretended I said Ben Youngs would kill to have Brown's career

Amazingly disingenuous responses, time and again, suggest you're not worth bothering with.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Yareet (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 13:56
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Brodie Retallick, kieran Read, Warburton, Faletau, Ben Smith, Pocock, Beauden Baritt, Owen Franks, Julian Savea, Aaron Smith ...

most of those guys have played multiple games for the lions,

Small point but only 2 of them have.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 14:02
The guy is England's most capped fullback by a country mile, has had awards domestically and internationally, appeals to the general public England fans because of his 100% effort style and clutch plays, and you're pretending he's a nobody compared to guys like Elliot Daly and Ben Youngs (That is a direct quote from you and I never said he was a nobody, I am saying one at 25 is way ahead of Brown was at his age and Youngs has achieved more and neither of them should be termed as icons)

As to your points,

1.oh sorry I forgot to add the England player of the season award, I don't know how much that makes a difference to an overall point and I did not realise that was considered a serious international recognition award
2. I just gave you what Ben Youngs did based on the quote above
3. You are absolutely nuts if you think that's an average player, and even nuttier if you don't think it makes him an England icon. Guys like Daly would kill to end their careers in that sort of company. (Again another quote from you, saying that Daly will kill to end their career in the company of Mike Brown), no I am saying that if Daly ends his career not being better than Mike Brown, i would be massively shocked, Daly is a guy who i expect to play multiple times more for the lions and if he is not injured, I would be shocked if he does not win more caps, I am not sure that Mike Brown is who Daly is looking up to career wise.

I agree somewhat with your point Honky, there have been calls for Brown and the Watson experiment did not exactly work out very well but I will not be shocked to see Eddie go try out Daly there this summer, if Brown is the best choice for the team, he should definitely start but he has to improve his attacking game as that was why he was dropped.

As for the Robshaw one, he has been one of the best players for England but i disagree that it is an area where England have great strength, England have not had great strength in the back row for a very long time, Robshaw has been very consistent and has played well, as for the lions, I don't even want to open up a can of worms because any single word i say will be classed as anti quins rather than just analysing a player

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 14:04
Quote:
Yareet
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Brodie Retallick, kieran Read, Warburton, Faletau, Ben Smith, Pocock, Beauden Baritt, Owen Franks, Julian Savea, Aaron Smith ...

most of those guys have played multiple games for the lions,

Small point but only 2 of them have.


3 have mate, Kieran Read was named World player of the year in 2013, Retallick in 2014 and Baritt the last 2 years so 3

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 14:10
Sorry Yarett, I suppose you are talking about the lions. I meant most of those guys have either played loads of games for the lions or won a world cup

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 14:32
Sergio Parisse and Martin Castrogiovanni won next to nothing at international level and are still icons. You can be iconic and not - get this - be the best player in the world or even win things.

Plenty of iconic players weren't the best in the world.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 15:07
I agree with you Jammy about being iconic and not necessarily win trophies or many international awards and Parisse was one of the best 8's in the world for a decade and Castro was a great TH for a long time at international level and for what it's worth, Parisse in a terrible Italy team has been nominated for world player of the year. Parisse is an icon, you can make an argument that Castro is, to me Brown is not and neither is anyone currently playing for England, although a few can be based on their age profile

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 15:16
To me to be considered as an icon, you have to be one of the best players in the world for more than one or two seasons and that is why Brown or Itoje or Farrell or whoever you consdered an icon is not an icon to me.

Brodie Retallick has been the best second row in the world for the last 6 years, Sam Whitelock alongside him, they have been the best partnership in rugby for 6 years, Parisse was one of the best number 8's for about 10 years, Read the same, Aaron Smith has been the best number 9 in rugby for years, anyone can have a great season or even 2 great seasons like Itoje and Farrell have done or Brown did if you count 2014 and 2015 as great seasons for him, that does not make anyone an icon in my book.

AWJ is an icon, he has been one of the best locks in rugby for 10 years, actually more than 10 years, the guy has played in 9 straight lions tests spanning 12 years, that is an icon, to say he is an icon and also say Itoje at 23 in his third season is an icon is an insult to AWJ, Itoje if he does not get injured will probably get there but until he does, he should not be labelled as such and neither should Brown or Farrell or any England player. The only icon currently playing in England is Schalk Burger and before him George Smith, there are many good players and there are some world class ones, there re some future icons but it is too soon for those guys

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 15:40
You're literally arguing that someone cannot be an icon for their country if they're not better than other players on totally different countries. It's absolutely nonsensical.

It means someone who is venerated. In this case, by the fans. I've already explained why that's the case for Brown and it's obviously true for guys like Itoje - people who are not just excellent and successful players, but who stand out for a variety of reasons that really warm them to supporters. Castro was an OK tight head, but his attitude and looks is what elevated him to an icon. You can be a cult hero without being the best in the world. Often such players aren't.

Here's a great example of what I'm talking about: [www.rugbyworld.com]



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 15:47
Then we are just arguing about semantics then mate. Going by what you have just said that many players are icons.

My definition is probably closer to legend, if you are saying someone who is venerated and loved by fans then fine, I was talking about how good they are as players and how long they have been great players

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 15:58
Yes apologies for using a word correctly and not using a different one with a different meaning, I can see how that would be confusing.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Boonie (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 16:30
Only thing is, Brown IS a Legend...



"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to bleat about it all over the internet"

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
Rocker (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 22:55
Wyn Jones? Really!

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
Yareet (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 04:59
Quote:
Rocker
Wyn Jones? Really!

Scarlets prop? Heís only got 8 caps

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 09:08
Maybe if this is not anti Quins then perhaps BS (pahaha see wot I dun there..) could move this discussion to the England Rugby forum.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 10:32
I quite like fans of other teams posting on here if they're not on any wind-up, although BS certainly seems to have a little chipiness about many of our players. I think the main difference in opinion is that we seem to think we have a good team on paper whereas he thinks we have a decidedly average one. Plus he's been a bit all over the shop on this thread.

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 10:37
Obviously doesn't like his in-laws much.....



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 10:40
Can't blame him for that even if they are Quins fans.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
JimJam350 (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 12:35
Quote:
Jammy Git
Yes apologies for using a word correctly and not using a different one with a different meaning, I can see how that would be confusing.

Pity you can't see how others can have a different opinion to you without the need for you to be quite so unpleasant.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 13:31
Quote:
JimJam350
Quote:
Jammy Git
Yes apologies for using a word correctly and not using a different one with a different meaning, I can see how that would be confusing.

Pity you can't see how others can have a different opinion to you without the need for you to be quite so unpleasant.

Wrong time of the month?



BB

 
Re: Browny - canÔŅĹt stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 17:09
Quote:
Scaramouche
Obviously doesn't like his in-laws much.....

hahaha I quite like them, well as much as you can like your in-laws I guess.

Look I think Quinten is slightly right, I think you guys have a much higher regard for your players as you rightly should than I do although I am not sure I would say you have an average team on paper, I think it is a good team, I just think even on paper, there are other stronger teams whereas some of you guys believe it is a top 4 quality squad on paper, I don't hold that opinion even though a few of the players are top top players like both your starting props.

I do like conversations like this as it's just opinions at the end of the day and most of this stuff is subjective.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 18:32
Quote:
JimJam350
Quote:
Jammy Git
Yes apologies for using a word correctly and not using a different one with a different meaning, I can see how that would be confusing.

Pity you can't see how others can have a different opinion to you without the need for you to be quite so unpleasant.

Hmm, from someone who spends a lot of time sniping at people that's quite funny. But yes, I get frustrated and a little peevish when someone repeatedly misrepresents what I'm saying, is repeatedly disingenuous, doesn't follow a logical thread, and seems to exist on here just to slag off our players.

So yeah, I got bored of being polite.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 19:19
Look Jammy, I am not going to stoop down to the level of insults of the sorts, one of the great things about rugby is we can have a debate in a civilised manner with people who differ from us without malice. You seem to think I have a grudge against your players, I certainly don't think so as I don't think calling someone third best in the world is insulting anybody or the issue of Icon where i even took the contrary view to you and said that saracens players like Itoje are not icons and you said he is, so it is clear we just differ.

We can have differing views of players or coaches or whoever, we are all different and I don't expect you to agree with me on everything or me to agree with you. All I would expect is some level of civility and decorum, rugby is a sport, it is not a life or death issue.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 19:55
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Look Jammy, I am not going to stoop down to the level of insults of the sorts, one of the great things about rugby is we can have a debate in a civilised manner with people who differ from us without malice. You seem to think I have a grudge against your players, I certainly don't think so as I don't think calling someone third best in the world is insulting anybody or the issue of Icon where i even took the contrary view to you and said that saracens players like Itoje are not icons and you said he is, so it is clear we just differ.
We can have differing views of players or coaches or whoever, we are all different and I don't expect you to agree with me on everything or me to agree with you. All I would expect is some level of civility and decorum, rugby is a sport, it is not a life or death issue.

And I don't want my arguments deliberately misrepresented, or to be involved in a discussion with someone who is deeply disingenuous. I will be critical of you - and I haven't exactly gone full Twitter muppet on you - when you do these things, like in this thread. It's guaranteed to irritate anyone, so why should I be any different?

I also don't think it's any surprise that whenever there's a positive discussion about a Quins player, you're on hand to play the role of the opposition.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 20:13
I am very scared Jammy, Please don't be critical of me, what can i do to make it up to you, also interesting that you are the only one who has resorted to insults like a 5 year old. I mean you can debate someone like an adult without going into your insult bag of tricks.


I contribute on probably at most 1 percent of everything posted here so unless 99 percent of the stuff posted on this board is not positive towards your players then I don't know how I can be on hand to play the role of opposition.

Once again, my opposition to said player is that I said rather than being second best in the world, he was third best in the world, I mean I must hate him greatly to consider him third best in the world, so I am sorry Jammy, he was better than Folau, he was second best in the world and an icon and all of the other players you mentioned, a few who play for my club who I don't consider icons, you are right, they are icons.

Jammy you are right, I am sure that is what you want me to say so there you have it, you are right

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 20:32
Insults? I've called you disingenuous - it's not an insult, it's intended to convey what I think you're trying to do in this discussion. Where else have I insulted you "like a 5 year old"? Please do let me know.

I'm sorry you thought icon meant something else. I'm sorry you read my posts about certain players and then argued as if I'd said something completely different. Repeatedly. Perhaps I'm not the only person who needs to revisit how they posted on this thread...?



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
19 May, 2018 09:06
Stoop down....LMTO



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Cookie (IP Logged)
19 May, 2018 10:27
So, in summary.........

Sarries fan doesnít rate Quins player(s).
Quins fans rate Quins player(s).

Did I miss anything?

Iím not really a fan of opposition fans going on to other clubsí boards other than for info or post-match congrats/commiserations. They rarely go well as this thread so amply demonstrates.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
raedarius (IP Logged)
19 May, 2018 13:41
Quote:
Cookie
So, in summary.........
Sarries fan doesnít rate Quins player(s).
Quins fans rate Quins player(s).

Did I miss anything?

Iím not really a fan of opposition fans going on to other clubsí boards other than for info or post-match congrats/commiserations. They rarely go well as this thread so amply demonstrates.

If we wanted a board with minimal incursion from other fans, we should take the Gloucester route rather than be on Rugby Network with a site called Come All Within.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
19 May, 2018 14:46
Quote:
If we wanted a board with minimal incursion from other fans, we should take the Gloucester route rather than be on Rugby Network with a site called Come All Within.

I agree. I don't have a problem with it. And Barnetsarrie12 isn't usually offensive. smiling smiley



BB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/05/2018 14:52 by Brown Bottle.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
19 May, 2018 14:48
Thank you Brown and Raedarius, we can all have a debate and not have tempers rise etc. This thread has been derailed anyways, I think we need to get back to the original point which is about Brown and passing.

 
Re: Browny - canít stop passing
Bedfordshire Boy (IP Logged)
19 May, 2018 17:07
Probably fair to say the perception of most fans is that whenever he does he shouldn`t and when he shouldn`t he does.


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