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andysaint
Leavers confirmed
andysaint (IP Logged)
09 May, 2016 21:29
Kahn
Danny
Woolford
Matfield
Cardall
Williams
Howard

Thanks for the memories and good luck to all

The shortness of the list surprises me, bar the announced I don't expect s lot of changes next yr. Contractial renewal next season might be fun....

 
tedge
Re: Leavers confirmed
tedge (IP Logged)
09 May, 2016 21:38
Only 2 first team players then and one already replaced so although JM said there would be some more signings it looks as though they will be young hopefuls. As Woolford is going we must be short of locks

 
SaintED
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintED (IP Logged)
09 May, 2016 21:45
All the best to all of them in the future. Glad to see Wilson not on the list but slightly disappointed to not see a bit of clearing of the senior squad not only because it suggests few acquisitions or refreshes for next season but also because it means we won't be addressing perennial problems with the same injured players and those who are no longer improving.

We're going to have a lot of players on "International" wages next season but only playing club rugby.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
Paul Flatt (IP Logged)
09 May, 2016 21:55
"We must be short of locks"

What, apart from the following club employees who have played backrow in one form or another >>

Day, Ludlam, Onajaife, Patterson, Harrison, Lawes, Clark, Wood, Bennett, Fisher, Dickinson, Gibson, Craig, Moon, Nutley, Peters and some new bloke called Picamoles (17)

As to how short each of them are, please refer to the Players profiles here

How many would you like?



"Your days are numbered. Use them to throw open the windows of your soul to the sun. If you do not, the sun will soon set, and you with it."

-- Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor 161-180 A.D.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
Paul Flatt (IP Logged)
09 May, 2016 21:58
Perhaps more positively -

Thank you very much to all players, leaving or staying, for all the enterntainment over the past year. Have a great summer and good luck in the next season, wherever that may be,

and To Leavers, don't be strangers - you always belong here.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
09 May, 2016 22:37
The baseline salary cap goes up by an extra 1.4m next season as a result of the extra TV revenue Link to the salary cap details and increases

That equates to 4 top quality signings on 350k p.a.

Jim was talking about more signings after the Gloucester game.

 
twsaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
twsaint (IP Logged)
09 May, 2016 22:42
Many thanks and good luck to all except if you play against us

A couple more major(ish) signings likely. One in the second row and one other.

 
SaintsmanTom
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintsmanTom (IP Logged)
09 May, 2016 23:15
Paul maybe I'm being dumb.... which is likely....

Lock is second row and you name players that can play back row ....

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
Paul Flatt (IP Logged)
09 May, 2016 23:18
Tom, not dumb at all. I didn't know how else to describe them all in a succinct form. Most have done lock as well as 8 or flanker.

Most importantly, I know what I meant!



"Your days are numbered. Use them to throw open the windows of your soul to the sun. If you do not, the sun will soon set, and you with it."

-- Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor 161-180 A.D.

 
andysaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
andysaint (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 05:48
I do see your point Paul, however I believe that we have started before Clark and Dickinson in the second row before and it did not go well. Whilst they can play they, it is probably something that should be avoided. I really am not a fan of playing people out of position.

 
TringSaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
TringSaint (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 07:09
It's a bit like comparing a bricklayer with someone who can lay bricks.
Both can do the job but which one would you like building your house?

Some positions are specialist and they should remain so. Can't imagine sarries or tigs seeing all back rowers as locks!

 
SaintED
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintED (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 07:46
Quote:
SaintMaul
The baseline salary cap goes up by an extra 1.4m next season as a result of the extra TV revenue

Great point SaintMaul. I had completely forgotten that.

Quote:
TringSaint
It's a bit like comparing a bricklayer with someone who can lay bricks.
Both can do the job but which one would you like building your house?

Agreed Tring. Also like andysaint I remember Clark and Dickinson having to lock together last season and what a mess that was. Not quite as extreme as saying we could stick Myler on the wing because he's a back and can run but similarly silly to suggest that our backrowers are lock cover other than in extreme circs.

 
LaurieK
Re: Leavers confirmed
LaurieK (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 08:29
We need a lock and for me a really class centre. We got by with George and Luther this year with Pat and Tom injured and Harry a late arrival.
And SaintED how can you have a clear out with players under contract. We aren't football yet. And there's nothing wrong with the squad. They just played rubbish this year.

 
SaintsMan87
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintsMan87 (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 08:48
Thanks to all leavers.

On the salary cap increase, unfortunately some agents will have seen this as a good pay rise for their clients at contract negotiation time. So realistically its not 4 top class players.

 
SaintED
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintED (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 10:06
Quote:
LaurieK
SaintED how can you have a clear out with players under contract. We aren't football yet. And there's nothing wrong with the squad. They just played rubbish this year.

If we gave anything more than a year extension to a couple of oft injured players last season when they renewed then someone has dropped the ball. If that isn't the case they would have been up for renewal this coming season. Likewise a couple of our senior players who renewed two seasons ago so this season or (as you say) next. We've already made one incredibly poor contract extension this season and another one that is of doubtful value. As for the idea that there's nothing wrong with the squad I hope that's loyalty talking rather than anything else as its clear there are major issues in key positions.

 
riverlodge
Re: Leavers confirmed
riverlodge (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 11:17
Kahn and Victor must create quite a bit of salary cap space surely?

 
St tub
Re: Leavers confirmed
St tub (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 11:45
Interestingly Sarries and Tiggs do seem to see backrow as locks.. smiling smiley
Itoje, Slater, Kitchener, Kruis, Parling (ok now at Exeter).. Tom Croft was signed as a lock and we will all remember the Lancaster "Nick Easter" experiment for a long time

We will be after a playmaking 10 and a lineout lock - same as the last 8-10 years..

 
Saint Swan
Re: Leavers confirmed
Saint Swan (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 11:53
Don't forget that the extra 1.4m has to come from somewhere. As a club that prides itself on running a profitable operation there's no guarantee we'll be able to spend up to the new cap.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
Matthew (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 12:09
Quote:
andysaint
I do see your point Paul, however I believe that we have started before Clark and Dickinson in the second row before and it did not go well. Whilst they can play they, it is probably something that should be avoided. I really am not a fan of playing people out of position.

Sale away last season, I think, because we had run out of fit lock specialists. And, as I remember, we got totally taken apart at the lineout.



ACTUAL BEHIND-THE-SCENES TRAINING
FOOTAGE FROM SARACENS:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37800000/Scrooge-McDuck-gif-mickey-and-friends-37815657-245-188.gif

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
Neil-H (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 12:38
It was Sales last year and we got destroyed in the scrims as well... And you are right, they were the last 2 standing

 
andysaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
andysaint (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 12:49
I know we've had a few re-signings this year but I do wonder how many will be out of contract next season. If we have another season like this one and a larger number of deals are up it could cause quite a headache when it comes to January 2017. I believe that a large number of changeovers is not a good idea. Staggered and evolution better than revolution (in terms of numbers).

 
David Tavener
Re: Leavers confirmed
David Tavener (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 13:42
Locks on the books...

Day, Lawes. Paterson, Craig, Moon (academy) & Peters (academy).

Dickinson has played many games at lock. Clark can play there but as with Dickinson needs an out and out lock with him to work well.

I'd say that's pretty much covered for locks but I'd expect potentially one more unless we saw Matfield as a bit part player with a wealth of experience.

 
twsaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
twsaint (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 14:29
Plus Onojaife. Huge promise in the academy but Courts in the England squad and one injury , then it's an academy lad thrown into the 23. There's a second row coming without doubt. We're after Matt Symons from Irish, but so are Wasps.

 
fair_weather_fan
Re: Leavers confirmed
fair_weather_fan (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 14:30
Josh Peters in the academy looks a real prospect at lock and I suppose is why Alex Woolford has been let go. Peters is also quite a big lad even for a lock and while we need a lock we could do one with Dave Attwood type physique for scrum and maul grunt. Dont suppose Mr Attwood fancies a stint at the gardens..... or one of those beastly Islander types playing in France??

For centre a fit Tom Stephenson will do me. start breaking the line like Teimana does and the whole thing will look completely different with the same other players

 
andysaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
andysaint (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 14:39
My issue with the locks is that Lawes has been away with England plenty and has had injuries. Craig has had his problems, Day is not getting any younger and Patterson fell down the pecking order. At our prime, Day and Lawes together in the second row proved a powerful and our best combination. Can we rely on that now for whole season? If not, can we rely on Patterson or Craig to go through a whole season as starting lock? Unless we've got someone special in the academy ready.

 
St tub
Re: Leavers confirmed
St tub (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 15:44
Locks are not interchangeable in the way props aren't, I wish people would realize this

You can play two monsters - but you will limit your own lineout options and have no defensive lineout

You can play two lineout guys - but the scrum is de-powered and your mauling is underweight

You can also swap any of the above for a backrow (Sam D, Courts, Calum, whoever) - you gain in mobility (and lineout potentially) but lose in technique and around the field breakdown.. a backrows natural instinct isn't just to clear a ruck or stand at guard

The issue is one of mix and what Dorian wants on the pitch vs what we've got

 
Norgesaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
Norgesaint (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 15:48
Quote:
SaintEd
We've already made one incredibly poor contract extension this season and another one that is of doubtful value.

Out of interest which player(s) are you talking about?

 
Deesaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
Deesaint (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 15:54
Quote:
SaintED
Quote:
LaurieK
SaintED how can you have a clear out with players under contract. We aren't football yet. And there's nothing wrong with the squad. They just played rubbish this year.

If we gave anything more than a year extension to a couple of oft injured players last season when they renewed then someone has dropped the ball. If that isn't the case they would have been up for renewal this coming season. Likewise a couple of our senior players who renewed two seasons ago so this season or (as you say) next. We've already made one incredibly poor contract extension this season and another one that is of doubtful value. As for the idea that there's nothing wrong with the squad I hope that's loyalty talking rather than anything else as its clear there are major issues in key positions.

Although not as direct as above there is a view that the spine of the team peaked mid last season.
All good teams peak - world cup winners, tigers, bath etc.
The challenge is to make changes and move forward.
Either through loyalty expectation or looking backwards not forward we didn't.
I think Jim eludes to this in his ' we didn't get it right pre season'
Jim has worked with two very inexperienced coaches in defence and attack and this has shown; Alan Dickens and Alex King. ( I didn't know that Alex was a support coach at Clermont not the main man) We have all seen defence errors and lack of attack play.
Until we get the coaching right and change our style. I think this will happen next season it doesn't matter who is signed as they will be subject to a game plan that isn't working.
I blame the world cup - how dare those inferior teams come here and show us how to play a different style of winning rugby !!!!!
Its not all about set piece winning penalties at the scrum winning lineouts = its about the whole game the bit that happens after the set piece.
Its one hell of a challenge for JM

 
St tub
Re: Leavers confirmed
St tub (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 16:25
Extensions: (based on current 1st team) - not many to choose from in Ed's list..

George - Nov 2015
Fodes - Dec 2015
Daisy - Dec 2015
Mikey - Dec 2015
Jamie - Dec 2015
Ace - May 2015
Dylan - Dec 2014
Courts - Dec 2014
Calum - Dec 2014
Alex - Dec 2014
Ethan - Dec 2014
James C - Dec 2014
Gareth D - Dec 2014
James W - Dec 2014
Myler - Dec 2014
Pisi - Dec 2014
Stephenson - Dec 2014
Jim - Jun 2014
Lee - Dec 2013
Luther - Dec 2013
Ken - Dec 2013
Tom - Dec 2013
Sam - Dec 2013
Ben N - Dec 2013

KF, VM both leavers plus Corbs and Matti announced earlier and the new arrivals (KB, Hilly, Jamie G) - thats about it

 
tedge
Re: Leavers confirmed
tedge (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 17:03
Alan Dickens was defence coach when we were league champions and last season - I believe we had one of the best defences in the AP in those two seasons

 
ch saint
Re: Leavers confirmed
ch saint (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 17:22
I believe John Fisher is leaving.
I think it makes sense to get a lock and another centre. A new 10 is hoping for too much.

 
SaintsEdward
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintsEdward (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 18:31
I don't get why people keep saying we need a new 10. Myler has been a fantastic servant to the club and I've got feeling he'll get better with age much like Hodgson and Evans. His kicking is brilliant and why we didn't take more 3 points rather than keep going to the corner this year amazes me.

Plus JJ has shown a lot of talent, he just needs more game time. Then we have Sam Olver who's only 21 and shown lots of potential. Plus we have Wilson who can cover if needs be and I believe Mallinder has also played 10 in the past.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
skybluesaint (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 18:55
Quote:
tedge
Alan Dickens was defence coach when we were league champions and last season - I believe we had one of the best defences in the AP in those two seasons

and, perhaps remarkably and surprisingly, THIS season (tries conceded 33, alongside Sarries - next best Exeter 37).

Attack has been our downfall - tries scored 48 (7th best, after 2nd best last season, best 2013/14).

 
Dick Dastardly
Re: Leavers confirmed
Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 19:29
And many of the tries conceded were cock ups (Leicester and Bath in last two home games for example). We just need a tad more inventiveness.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
10 May, 2016 20:47
Quote:
Saint Swan
Don't forget that the extra 1.4m has to come from somewhere. As a club that prides itself on running a profitable operation there's no guarantee we'll be able to spend up to the new cap.

The increase in the cap reflects the increased TV monies. We have increased ground capacity also.

Quote:
SaintsMan87
On the salary cap increase, unfortunately some agents will have seen this as a good pay rise for their clients at contract negotiation time. So realistically its not 4 top class players.

Interesting point. I wonder if we fell into the trap of paying over the odds renewing contracts previously to keep the Premiership winning side intact rather than bringing in fresh blood.

I would hope even if we have used a slice to keep existing players that a sizeable chunk exists for new players. After all if u look at other teams they have managed to both retain existing stars as well as recruiting additional top quality players to strengthen their squads.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2016 21:10 by SaintMaul.

 
Eif Jones
Re: Leavers confirmed
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 02:15
SaintsEdward, last Saturday summarised Myler's failings in attack. Try counting the number of times he performed his favourite routine i.e. run across the field and, guess what, a simple scissors with one of the centres, that summarises his attacking option. By now, all opposing coaches know his style and are ready; it happens at every game. A top 4 side needs a top 4 no 10 and, goal kicking notwithstanding, he is not one of those.

Salary cap increases invariably mean player salary inflation, not additional players.

 
GOD
Re: Leavers confirmed
Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 07:33
Quote:
Deesaint
Until we get the coaching right and change our style. I think this will happen next season it doesn't matter who is signed as they will be subject to a game plan that isn't working.
I blame the world cup - how dare those inferior teams come here and show us how to play a different style of winning rugby !!!!!
Its not all about set piece winning penalties at the scrum winning lineouts = its about the whole game the bit that happens after the set piece.
Its one hell of a challenge for JM

THIS thumbs down

Also, and I am a fan of S Myler Eif is right again an area of the game that has moved on.
My business colleague who follows his lad (who plays for Scottish) and regularly watches Prem on TV commented the other week and I quote "you (Saints) need a 10. By which he meant an attacking 10 Steve Mylers kicking from tee and tactical kicking is superb just wish he or the coaches or both could refine his attack play more.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
shendy (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 07:43
Myler's style of play didn't seem too much of an issue in the previous 2 seasons, when we were winning, and he has maybe regressed a bit - how much of that is being behind a pack that's not so dominant?



There ain't no Sanity Clause

 
SaintsEdward
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintsEdward (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 07:59
Quote:
Eif Jones
SaintsEdward, last Saturday summarised Myler's failings in attack. Try counting the number of times he performed his favourite routine i.e. run across the field and, guess what, a simple scissors with one of the centres, that summarises his attacking option. By now, all opposing coaches know his style and are ready; it happens at every game. A top 4 side needs a top 4 no 10 and, goal kicking notwithstanding, he is not one of those.
Salary cap increases invariably mean player salary inflation, not additional players.

We've tried to play too flat this year at times and admittedly Mylers not the quickest player in the world and doesn't take the ball into contact much so its exposed some failings at times.

But as above our style of play suits when the packs got us on the front foot and I think we've missed the go forward that Samu has provided over the last few years. Look how much better we've been in open quick play this year when Harrison or Mallinder have broken the line and we are running onto the ball with pace and depth rather than being flat and static.

Every time a new 10 has come in that's meant to be creative Myler's kept hold of the shirt because of his consistency and I can't see that changing. The failing for me has been in the centre this year, we've not got the ball out to the wing and haven't ran straight. Whats the point of having a wing like North if he never gets the ball or space?

 
Deesaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
Deesaint (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 08:03
Quote:
shendy
Myler's style of play didn't seem too much of an issue in the previous 2 seasons, when we were winning, and he has maybe regressed a bit - how much of that is being behind a pack that's not so dominant?

Steve Myler has and is a great servant to Saints
Undoubtedly his star has risen from playing behind a dominant pack and taking points after winning penalties at scrum or rolling maul
This year we have not seen the dominance - we seem to be suffering at scrum time the penalties have gone against us which has called for an alternative game and I think Steve has suffered
Having watched Dan Carter play for Racing you get to understand why he is rated as number one. His kicking game is spot on he varies where he takes the ball. flat/deep he takes the ball to the line he has an eye for the gap and takes it on himself his passing game is excellent but the icing is his defence not just making big tackles but back on his feet and over the ball
Can but dream

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 08:57
#shackled



Sent from the toilet

 
GOD
Re: Leavers confirmed
Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 10:06
#Sohowdoweunshackle eh Robby? Honest and genuine question genuinely asked

 
Saint Ted
Re: Leavers confirmed
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 10:31
First up I have nothing but respect for Jim, so this isn't a dig.

But whilst Jim is in charge, the shackles will always be on to a certain extent.

Myler has seen off all the 'flair' fly halfs, in each case it seems, we give the flair fly half a bash, he makes a couple of mistakes and then we go back to the tried and tested method, which up until about January last year still worked, thats why we won the prem, it worked well, massively helped with the pack.

We don't have that domination anymore, from the stands you can pretty much always see what we're going to do, you can sure as hell bet the opposition can see it too, they are professionals, if we as amateurs can spot it so can they.

I don't have the stats, but I'd be willing to bet that a good proportion of tries scored by our backs have come from moves not drilled in day in day out on the training paddock, when we keep the ball in hand and try something different, we make big gains.

The flair fly halfs largely grow with confidence, we've never let that happen, they make a couple of mistakes and it's back to the bench, Carlos, Shane, Ryan and now JJ, it's an all too familiar pattern, in the past it hasn't mattered too much, we need to adapt and haven't done it, when we do we can be dangerous again, but until that point I fear we'll be stuck with mid table mediocrity, hopefully this season is the kick up the backside we needed.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
shendy (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 12:04
If "whilst Jim is in charge, the shackles will always be on to a certain extent" isn't a dig, I don't know what one looks like.

EDIT: I don't deny you a right to have a dig, but don't do it while claiming not to.



There ain't no Sanity Clause



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2016 12:05 by shendy.

 
Saint Ted
Re: Leavers confirmed
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 12:59
It's not a dig, it's an observation

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
shendy (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 13:31
If it looks like a duck...



There ain't no Sanity Clause

 
Saint Ted
Re: Leavers confirmed
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 14:19
take it as you will, if someone said that to me I wouldn't take it as a dig, he's got his opinion, I've got mine, they differ, at the end of the day only one of them matters and it's not the one of the chap sat behind his keyboard on a web forum!

 
TringSaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
TringSaint (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 14:19
Dig or no dig, i think St Ted makes a valid point.(personally, if that was a dig then it was a very nice one!!)

We do seem to revert to type when the excrement hits the fan, and without the forward domination of old, we look like a fractured side.

Myler is a damn good player, but his skills are best used in certain types of games where his kicking is needed more than his running. That being said, when you cant make ground and it falls down to the backs solely to 'do something' then steve will try different things, and that is not really his strength.

JJ might be the future, he might not. Who knows, but what i do know is that we cant start next season with the same game plan, as we will get slaughtered.

Time for myler to be come back-up? Maybe, but please lets give JJ a chance to shine before we cast another 10 into the wilderness

 
Deesaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
Deesaint (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 14:21
If we had only signed the right Pisi
We wouldn't be having this discussion ***

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 14:25
Shackles.

Conservative rugby? low on confidence? lacking in ideas? Playing to a game plan?
All of the above.

Steve Myler has shown time & again he's a talented footballer with plenty of deft touches & the ability to manage a game. But we're so predictable in our play, so bereft of ambition they we've not seen much of it this season. Doesn't mean he's lost it, most likely means shackles.

Plenty of People call for JJ over Myler, more attacking, attack. No, they're not letting him & they don't trust his goal kicking or defence.

Look at Kahn, when he arrived he was all footloose, sniping at the breakdown, quick, kept the defence guessing & having to be watched like a hawk. The player that leaves? Misguided box kicks, takes an age to retrieve the ball, slow pass, basically removed of everything that made him a match winner.

Inconsistent accuracy. Accuracy, in general, that's been sorely missing. At the scrum, at the line-out, in the backs, in the defence. Burrell & Pisi look like strangers half the time in defence & some of the stuff we saw at Castle grim was downright appalling from 2 international centres. We throw to the front of the line when going for a maul near the line, the easiest way to sack/stop the drive is when thrown to the front. We've done it continually all season. Low risk, low reward.

Our line speed is up and down like a fiddlers elbow. Look at other sides & they're all offside all the time & flying up. We dont do that. Then we do. Then we dont.

Jim rightly fessed up about the preseason last week, but there are wider issues to be addressed.

1- Why when you've had the longest preseason you'll see for the next 4 years did we not look to redefine our attacking options? (Considering the Clermont disaster & the Sarries play off no-show) We sign 2 ball carrying tighthead props & ask them to truck it up on the fringes, not break lines. (See tigers, if you've got line breakers, let them)

2- Why when you've had the longest preseason you'll see for the next 4 years did we not look to redefine our defensive options? (Considering the Clermont disaster & the Sarries play off no-show) Smash dem bro isn't always necessary & hows about we defend as a team rather than 3 or 4 guys acting like a hit squad?

3- Why when you've had the longest preseason you'll see for the next 4 years did we decide to go super conservative after making a horlicks of the first 3 games of the season. (Considering the Clermont disaster & the Sarries play off no-show where it was surely apparent, with empirical evidence that the super conservative approach didn't work and was hugely predictable & stoppable)

4- Why when you've had the longest preseason you'll see for the next 4 years did we decide to dismiss everything that Alex King had introduced? Offloads out of tackles seem to have been banned, running angles, running in numbers off shoulders, hitting the line from deep & at pace? Gone. Bye, come back soon, we miss you.

5- Why when you've had the longest preseason you'll see for the next 4 years did we ignore the fact that there were no weeks off for the players to such an extent that we played the same 12 guys into the ground again & they were burnt out by February?

Shendy is right, if it looks like a conservative duck, quacks like a conservative duck...



Sent from the toilet

 
tedge
Re: Leavers confirmed
tedge (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 15:36
How much in touch with all this (if true) is the Board - or does it settle for a quiet life as long as the profits roll in ?

 
SaintED
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintED (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 18:54
(Sm152) Robby.


Quote:
Norgesaint
Out of interest which player(s) are you talking about?

The re-signing of North is a spectacularly poor decision in my view. It's no reflection on North who is a thorough professional and could be a great winger with another team but for me it's a bad call on so many levels. Firstly we simply aren't getting him/he isn't getting involved enough and he's far too expensive for that to continue. Secondly he is an International and likely to remain so and as such his availability at key times is an issue and lastly the nasty knocks he has taken over the past season are likely to make him much more susceptible to further similar injuries. I appreciate that we struggle to produce monster backs from the Academy; Collins, Elliott, Olver, etc. Even our giant, young Mallinder, doesn't play with physicality but surely a better solution would have to gone shopping for a physical wing from the SH and banked 150K difference? That money could really be used elsewhere.

For me the other one is Foden. I appreciate that many will disagree and to a certain extent it's tough on him as he has been hampered by injury over the past couple of seasons but there was such a difference watching both Wilson and Mallinder even very briefly at fullback. Both ran the ball back with a view to their support rather than just trying to do it all themselves. I've been hugely disappointed with indifferent the combination of he and North is.

I know Wilson is a couple of years older but he covers the back 5 so in terms of keeping a senior player I'd rather see him kept/renewed for a season or more. A bit like North, Foden will also be very expensive for what he offers. Keep Wilson, promote Collins to at least rotation fullback. I don't see a place for Ace either. Not renewing Fodens contract you would almost certainly have the cash to bring in a very decent SH club fullback in their mid twenties. Or even better see if Hammersley or Haley were interested in moving depending on contract or availability. With any of those options unless you needed to buy a contract out you would have cash to spare from not renewing Fodens contract.

 
oneandonlybiasedman
Re: Leavers confirmed
11 May, 2016 21:06
I find it somewhat tedious that so few can write so much and say so little . Anyway in response and to bore myself (!) :
Robbie - it's a bit like the poster who writes like a parrot , if it sounds like a parrot it must be a parrot ! .Bucks RFC are looking for an assistant coach - given all your knowledge would you consider applying ?.
Tedge - was that supposed to be funny or serious?
Ed - completely disagree with you re North and Foden . Plus I hope I am wrong but my suspicion is that Wilson will not reach the level of performance he demonstrated before suffering his last major injury.
I really am going on holiday now for a couple of months as I do not want to suffer anymore of this verbal ?&/?@ - at least until September ;
Signed
Another keyboard warrior who knows sweet !?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Leavers confirmed
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
11 May, 2016 22:57
Despite aspersions to the otherwise, I've no interest in coaching, I do watch the game closely though many of the things I've pointed out should be patently obvious to even occasional armchair supporters. If you can't see them, or don't wish to see them- Well if it looks like an ostrich...



Sent from the toilet

 
Norgesaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
Norgesaint (IP Logged)
12 May, 2016 06:41
SaintEd,
Really? George North is a spectacularly poor decision to re-sign and Ben Foden bad business.

I respectfully completely dsagree. If I get time and internet connection later (Svalbard is cold and notoriously bad internet) I'll go into more detail.

On another note if anyone ever gets the chance to visit Svalbard in the arctic circle, do it!

 
SaintED
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintED (IP Logged)
12 May, 2016 07:53
Quote:
Norgesaint
SaintEd,
Really? George North is a spectacularly poor decision to re-sign and Ben Foden bad business.

I respectfully completely disagree.

That's the great bit about these forums is we can discuss why and how we see things differently (if we have the inclination) in the above case we'll also have at least two years and one year (probably two) to see how it pans out but I would still be interested to hear why you think they make sense, especially North. The Foden one is much more subjective I appreciate.

Wrap up warm!

 
stoofer
Re: Leavers confirmed
stoofer (IP Logged)
12 May, 2016 09:42
Robby certainly asks some pertinent questions imo, and nicely summarises my own frustrations throughout the season.

What troubles me more though is that I haven't got any idea what the answers might be.....

Or any notion of whether we might be in a position to avoid the same mistakes next season.

 
SaintED
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintED (IP Logged)
12 May, 2016 12:13
Quote:
stoofer
What troubles me more though is that I haven't got any idea what the answers might be....

Lock Westie in a cupboard for pre-season so King has a say with how we play?

 
Deesaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
Deesaint (IP Logged)
12 May, 2016 12:51
Quote:
SaintED
Quote:
stoofer
What troubles me more though is that I haven't got any idea what the answers might be....

Lock Westie in a cupboard for pre-season so King has a say with how we play?

That is an interesting comment.
I have to think that you have attended training sessions to have seen Mr West lording over the rest of the coaches and enforcing his will while Jim stands quivering in the corner.
Second what does it say about Alex King if he is turning up for work every day and being told that his ideas are not going to be implemented and this is how it will happen. Will the rest of the saints contingent respect him or take any notice moving forward. Anyone worth their salt would have left if they where working under those conditions.
Last has Mr West taken over coaching the backs as well if he is to blame for the way we play help me to understand how this has come about and what does Alex do - water boy ?

I think this constant blame it on Westie has raised it's head a few times but let's have some substance.

 
SaintED
Re: Leavers confirmed
SaintED (IP Logged)
12 May, 2016 14:57
Quote:
Deesaint
I think this constant blame it on Westie has raised it's head a few times but let's have some substance.

Fair enough. We're still trying to play the power game with our forwards despite the fact that a fair few of them are very handy in the loose and have decent handling and even distribution skills. Our line-out drive/maul has failed throughout the season yet we kept going for that option rather than using our very good lineout more often to generate tail or long ball to bring our forward carriers or backs into the game on set piece. We still spend the majority of scrums playing for penalties rather than concentrating on getting the ball away quickly so that (again) we can use it for decent set piece play involving our backs. I don't think suggesting that we are forward focused to the detriment of our backs is exactly looking behind the curtain in terms of startling new information. Forwards and forward play determines set piece and we made a decision at the start of the season to grind it out rather than to try and get quick ball. Was that Kings call do you think?

Anyway. Seasons over and I will leave it before I say something I regret about this poor season and those in charge. We've regressed to being a mid-table club which is a shame and I think it's more likely that Gatland will ditch his favourites and unleash some creativity against the All Blacks than we will deviate from Jims standard gameplan next season.

 
TringSaint
Re: Leavers confirmed
TringSaint (IP Logged)
12 May, 2016 15:35
I think that the blame cannot rest on one person, but on the coaching team as a whole.

The scrum (once our greatest weapon) is now a lottery
Other tactic based forward play is limited, i.e. rolling mauls off 5m lineouts, and rarely results in the desired outcome.
General forward play with a few exceptions (T and Woody) has been way off the norm in terms of intensity, speed and aggression.

Back play is lateral and can be read as easily as a 'peter and jane 1a' book
No one runs lines, fixes defences or created overlaps
General ball skills are poor - passes into touch / forwards, dropped passes / kicks, offloads when they really are not 'on'

Defences are at sixes and sevens with players often caught out of position
We lack basic defensive structures as robbie described
We also seem to lack gas or determination to get back into position when the oppos counter

Kicking (apart from Myler's place and tactical kicking) is woeful most of the time.

So, i think that covers all of them!!

Im sure i will get shot down for not focusing on the good bits, but paraphrasing what many great sportspeople have said over the years, dont practice the things that you are good at, but instead focus on the things that you are not good at, as this is where you can make the greatest improvement!

I sense a busy summer for the entire coaching team, else a 'meeting without coffee' might not be far around the corner!!

 
fair_weather_fan
Re: Leavers confirmed
fair_weather_fan (IP Logged)
12 May, 2016 18:39
Interestingly Robbie, our family prematch conversations have revolved around what seems to have been a completely missing preseason. Strangely, in the preseason friendlies we saw (all bar Wuss) we looked ready to rumble. Ifit did all crumble as a result of the Wuss loss, its extraordinary.


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