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Hantsaintsrus4
I never moan but........
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 17:53
I know we shouldn't keep moaning about coaching but as so many of you have asked for my opinion..
At the start of last season Jim said he hardly ever got his tracksuit on and did coaching, ( Cockers said the same ) but now had an oversight role and in particular recruitment. I think he has done very well at it. But..
Rumours are many that when top players come Th the Gardens they are not happy with coaching/training. Example Kahn comes to us as the third best 9 around, never looked comfortable in his role, went to Bath, superstar. Well very good anyway.
We have a pack of very good players who can't scrum. Terrible for a Saints fan to say that, it hurts. We have o prop who is out of breath by the time he leaves the tunnel and gives away the same penalty time after time.
We have a very good centre who went off to play for England and came back worse. You cannot constantly lose the ball in contact without it being a technique problem to be sorted out by the coaches.
Why are our England players not developing and adapting their games as time passes?
If a person has hair in his eyes that he constantly brushes back could a coach mention peripheral vision is important.
Can we nurture Harry and help him become the class act he can be?
All of the above are great players,additional players look exciting but are the coaches up to it? Do players need a fresh voice every so often? When others were playing box kick chase we were playing meerkat then just kick it to the opposition. The crowd would groan but nothing changed. Now I know some people don't like to critisise the coaches but.....

 
tcichris
Re: I never moan but........
Chris Parr (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 17:57
Just out of interest since so many are asking your opinion, your credentials are?

 
herbie85
Re: I never moan but........
herbie85 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:05
Terrible hands doesn't equate to losing the ball in contact. But you make some value points

 
David Tavener
Re: I never moan but........
David Tavener (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:08
Isn't it a new season now....slate gets wiped clean! But points of areas do need improvement.

It's the time when the players focus and look to get the preparation for the coming season to get the little points right that became marginally incorrect.

Sitting there and moaning about last season now does not prove anything...I'm also getting a bit peeved off at people blaming the kicker in box kicks too like it's always their fault. The box kick requires another player to chase...if they can get to the ball challenge the ball...if you look to be second best then close the player down so they don't get easy yards!

Best thing you can do is not listen to rumours and hype and just support what is to come. How else does someone put something right or make it better if someone else is constantly bring up the past!

Last season was a frustrating one...but it was last season...move on now please!

 
twsaint
Re: I never moan but........
twsaint (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:35
You've never been on this site until this week, so who was been asking you?

You are right though; stop moaning about the coaching.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:40
Quote:
Chris Parr
Just out of interest since so many are asking your opinion, your credentials are?

Did you really say that?.... tell you what let's close down the message board because probably none of us have coached at prem club level. Let's also ban all rugby related conversations in the Rodber bar and all other bars in the ground.

Indeed I would go further, the club should fund a private security force to patrol all bars and food outlets within a 2 mile radius of Franklins Gardens. Anyone discussing anything rugby related is given a lifetime ban unless it is supprtive of the current management.


Management is temporary, saintsmen are here for life... criticism and plaudits all part of professional sport.

 
tcichris
Re: I never moan but........
Chris Parr (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:49
You appear to be missing my point. As so many people are asking your opinion, I was merely keen to learn your breadth of experience. I assume that that you have coaching experience within the community game. My post was not meant to upset you, so if I struck a nerve then I apologise

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:49
Dear HantSaint,

I will extend a hand of welcome, please ignore the typical sycophantic and aggressive stuff above.

Yes there are some anecdotes that would suggest various sub-optimal coaching of players or at least some seemingly quality players not achieving their potential. However I firmly believe Alan Dickens will become a top level coach, and I am hopeful Phil Dowson will bring some cohesion between the coaches and players. There is clearly a relationship issue between at least parts of the squad and the players, fingers crossed he is the glue between them.

Thank god for eddie jones, he has improved every player who's gone to England - the opposite of what seemed to happen in years past.

There are some world level backs arriving and I'm hoping they come with attitude and ideas. As long as the coaching unit shows sufficient humility to hear ideas and develop our style/methods there is no reason why we can't be successful.

As for the scrum, yes no-one can argue it was rubbish last year against the very top sides. We gifted easy points and chunks of yardage game after game, it is Dorians bread and butter so I'm sure he is working doubly hard over the summer to repair his reputation in that area.


Hopeful but things need to change as I'm sure our opponents will be evolving their games further.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:51
Quote:
Chris Parr
You appear to be missing my point. As so many people are asking your opinion, I was merely keen to learn your breadth of experience. I assume that that you have coaching experience within the community game. My post was not meant to upset you, so if I struck a nerve then I apologise


Are you taking to me or the original poster ? Chris I know you have criticised Saracens in the recent past so I wonder whether you're qualified to criticise the European back-to-back champions....

 
fleetg
Re: I never moan but........
fleetg (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:51
I agree with you Chris.
It was patently obvious that you were simply asking a question : Jeez people really do look for reasons to take offence these days !!!😁

 
Viggo
Re: I never moan but........
Viggo (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 19:22
Typical training session last season, as told to me by a player who left this summer.
Jim stands on the sides with his arms crossed and shouts a couple of things.
Day coaches the lineout
West does 20 mins on the scrums
Dickens deals with everyone else
He said its an awful atmosphere.
I spoke to the same player at the weekend, he has just completed 4 weeks with his new club and cannot believe the difference ! a small thing, but he said just to see players laughing and smiling was a nice change.
Hopefully the new players and Dowson will bring a change of atmosphere.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 19:26
Quote:
Viggo
Typical training session last season, as told to me by a player who left this summer.
Jim stands on the sides with his arms crossed and shouts a couple of things.
Day coaches the lineout
West does 20 mins on the scrums
Dickens deals with everyone else
He said its an awful atmosphere.
I spoke to the same player at the weekend, he has just completed 4 weeks with his new club and cannot believe the difference ! a small thing, but he said just to see players laughing and smiling was a nice change.
Hopefully the new players and Dowson will bring a change of atmosphere.


no rocket scientist needed to guess who that is !

 
Saintly Pursuit
Re: I never moan but........
Saintly Pursuit (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 19:26
Shock! Gasp! Ex-employee thinks that new employer is better than the previous one.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 19:27
Quote:
Saintly Pursuit
Shock! Gasp! Ex-employee thinks that new employer is better than the previous one.


Shock player playing for best coaching setup is enjoying it....

 
Dick Dastardly
Re: I never moan but........
Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 20:05
Has someone moved to Exeter?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: I never moan but........
StBleach (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 20:25
Wish this site had. A ' like ' button..

 
Saint Jericho
Re: I never moan but........
Saint Jericho (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 20:27
The season has not even started yet. Can we all just play nicely?

 
Happywifehappylife
Re: I never moan but........
Happywifehappylife (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 20:34
Do we really need to go here again?

Have to say the "off season" debate & topics have been absolutely superb - thanks guys (& gals)!

 
tcichris
Re: I never moan but........
Chris Parr (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 22:05
Thank you for that fleetg. There do seem to be some very sensitive souls out there. In answer to you Hungry, I wasn't criticising anybody but yes it was aimed at the original poster .

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: I never moan but........
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 23:35
I once had a telephone interview for a weeks work on DIY SoS as a runner when I finished my degree. I wasn't very well & having mental health problems at the time but when the assistant producer on the over end of the phone told me that I'd be expected to work for petrol money you can imagine my attitude towards the potential employment changed.
AP: So what experience do you have, erm, Robert?
Me: Well I've seen over 7 films including 102 Dalmatians twice!
AP: And what about experience in the building industry
Me: I used to run a construction company with my father
AP: Really?
Me: Yes, we used to bury people under patios for MI5.
AP: Oh...
*Click*

And that's a story about how if you expect little from people, you'll get little from people...

Look, yes, clean slate.

But there's been little evidence of improvement from the coaching staff, though some are relatively new in their promoted roles so that's kinda fair enough. To enforce a sea change in the middle of the season is never going to happen and is essentially the wrong way to go anyways. People don't like it when you tear everything up & it means massive adjustments for just about anyone. We've all seen it in all walk of life, let alone in rugby.

So that means marginal gains, slow progression but with empirical evidence of improvement.
And that is basically what we saw. Whilst results remained disappointing the standard of rugby, the brand we were playing did improve as we seemed to realise that playing to Picamoles strengths was probably a good idea. success came in the final game of the season but yes, answers to long term questions still remain.

Hoppers and his poisoned chalice is of particular concern, not because Hoppers isn't a capable coach but because our defence has seemingly fallen off a cliff in the last 18 months & it's a huge job. Can it be fixed inside of 5 or 6 weeks of preseason? No, it's something to keep an eye on progressively over the season.

One thing of concern that might be perceived as being critical of the players is what seemed like (& no, I can't properly substantiate it, it's just the same issue raised by various separate sources) some of the standards had dropped across the squad, as did confidence & the coaching staff, the support team and the players themselves have had to rebuild this. Again, if this is the case it takes time to fix & repair.

Lastly I'll leave you this about Smudger

Over the course of his career Wayne Smith had cultivated an eagle-eyed ability to identify the minute flaws and areas of development in most players but also had a wide-ranging skill set in order to aid player improvement. In doing this it eliminated a culture of blame between the players but also meant that the constant highlighting of errors would often mentally drain individuals and began to generate a mind-set of personal self-doubt rather than as mentioned previously as part of a championship culture, validating group members with positive empirical evidence of improvement. Smith would often pick out the 1 missed tackle rather than congratulate the player on the 10 they made.

With the Super Rugby season being a great deal shorter than the premiership, Wayne over time had to contend with elements that were new to him & his coaching team- The mental and physical grind of the ten month season, having to contend with poor conditions & variable pitches across the country, the varying strength of the opposition side and pressure of needing to finish inside the top 4 and avoid a relegation battle.

The need to win was constant, the need to perform to Smith's exalted standards equally so, but by wanting to treat every game as a cup final had a long term negative effect as it added to the pressure and drained the group of energy. Whilst driving standards and wanting players to improve is imperative, discovering a diverse means to freshen up the message, to offer praise and criticism in equal measure allows an opportunity to cultivate a positive atmosphere inside the squad that lasts longer over the course of the gruelling & demanding season.

For the 'sons of Smith' (Grayse, Tom Smith, our kid, Rob Hunter, Vassy, Joe Shaw, Ali Hepher, Bruce, Johan Ackermann) this was a very grounding experience & they will have utilised many elements as the foundation of their own coaching & management ethos with some augmentation and adapting to the way the game has evolved in recent years. Quickly identifying the various individuals’ characters & understanding the strongest & weakest areas of their game can achieve both long term and short term success & improvement with this approach.

However, identifying the opportune time when to increase pressure on improving standards and when detecting signs of stress or external pressures to temper those demands for high standards and individual improvement. Yet one constant that remains is developing a relationship with the players, built on trust & straight-talking honesty but I'd guess, and again, it's a bit of a wild guess, that Saints would be best served in augmenting the model used by Smith & ensuring in building confidence & self-reliance in the group to perform skills/techniques without fear or hesitation & at a consistently high standard.



Sent from the toilet

 
Eif Jones
Re: I never moan but........
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 01:09
Hantssaints - you have missed the biggest playing staff issue of all - somehow the Saints have converted North from being one of the world's best wingers into being a passenger and a complete disaster with the Lions (a scenario that has similarities with Khan). The Jones family here have always insisted that it was a big personal mistake for North to leave the Scarlets and join the Saints. The Scarlets haven't suffered though as they had a young lad in the academy who, with the resultant additional game time, became the top try scorer in the Pro12 last season, and, importantly, a far more affordable salary bill.
I also suspect that the way the Scarlets got better and better as last season progressed that their coaching staff deserve enormous praise, their attack began scoring tries for fun and their defence held out v Leinster with 14 men, a team that scored tries against the Saints for fun. In contrast, here at FG the team has just stagnated for two seasons with little sign of improvement, too many of their players have seen their best years, with little sign of replacements from their academy.

 
j1ll
Re: I never moan but........
j1ll (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 07:40
Not sure the coaches are to blame for everything that has been a problem with George North. The poor guy had 3 significant head impacts and a public debate about whether he should continue playing. It is impossible for any of us to know the physical and psychological of this, but it would be very strange if there were not some impact on the way he plays.

 
Box kick it
Re: I never moan but........
Box kick it (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 07:53
George has been stuck outside G Pisi and Luther Burrell for long periods of his saints career and they aren't exactly known for their putting players in space and passing. I reckon George will have a great season this year.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 07:55
Feels like George is an old school type of player now. The game has moved on from big lumps out wide, just look at the dexterity of those kiwi players. Yeah ok Savea played the last test but he was poor and will be dropped again.

 
Box kick it
Re: I never moan but........
Box kick it (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 08:32
Not sure I totally agree with that HLTW. In last two play off games for us, George was off his wing quite a bit and played very well. Running the ball back with purpose. Was good to see.

 
GOD
Re: I never moan but........
Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 08:34
A good thread in general with good contributions worthy of pre season debate.

Robby thanks for an informative and interesting post - good read.

It reminded me of a TED meeting I attended a few years back (not many) and a speaker talking in about innovation and progress in commerce. He used the term "Yes AND" more, with less ‘Yes But’ with regard to encouraging team openness, idea generation, and innovation.

Finally I would point to the philosophy of marginal gains as employed in GB cycling. In summary I think many of us sometimes fall into the trap of a new coach being a 'Messiah' figure able to bring instant change whereas it is about many parts of a bigger better picture over time.

 
fair_weather_fan
Re: I never moan but........
fair_weather_fan (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 10:21
I enjoyed reading your post Robby, hasnt always been so but that was particularly well thought out.

I think its the same in any sphere of life, improvement is being sought constantly and the balance between eliminating the negative and accentuating the positive has always been tricky. In management very many forget to praise the positive or do it in such a way that it seems that the manager themselves is claiming all the credit for what goes right but simply dispenses blame for what went wrong.

I have never coached Rugby but there have to be ways and means - focussing on technique not on outcomes for example, and emphasizing collective responsibility. Look how Sarries pack praise each other in the faces of opponents when they win a turnover or penalty. Its collective.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 10:54
Saracens is an interesting one. I believe their success is as much about 'culture' as it is technical training. Everyone seems to enjoy playing there, the same could not be said at FG.

We have had 2 seasons missing our minimum league table requirement and various noises of players unhappy. That isn't to drone on, this is reality and various posters would be better advised to allow a little more honesty than smattering opinions with pixie dust


That said, excited for the new season. The coaches have the ability to make big improvements. I would like a little more honesty from the club too. No more twattish post match diplomatic interviews, let's hear an honest analysis of the game. No more hiding, rumours of dissent, political infighting etc

Just get out there and bloody start winning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/07/2017 11:16 by HungryLikeTheWolf.

 
geoffs
Re: I never moan but........
geoffs (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 13:18
Is coaching adults that different from coaching kids. Plenty of praise for something done well and repeat with an explanation if done poorly.

 
Box kick it
Re: I never moan but........
Box kick it (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 13:33
Changing the angle of this topic slightly, If you never moan then surely your not a true saints supporter. Moaning is what we do best. ********************

 
herbie85
Re: I never moan but........
herbie85 (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 14:18
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
Saracens is an interesting one. I believe their success is as much about 'culture' as it is technical training. Everyone seems to enjoy playing there, the same could not be said at FG.
We have had 2 seasons missing our minimum league table requirement and various noises of players unhappy. That isn't to drone on, this is reality and various posters would be better advised to allow a little more honesty than smattering opinions with pixie dust


That said, excited for the new season. The coaches have the ability to make big improvements. I would like a little
more honesty from the club too. No more twattish post match diplomatic interviews, let's hear an honest analysis of the game. No more hiding, rumours of dissent, political infighting etc

Just get out there and bloody start winning.

A few years ago, when we were successful we seemed to have the culture right, or certainly better. I know that's easy to say that as we were winning... however I wonder how much of that was driven by the players. Some of those have moved on, but to see the visible difference in players faces, celebrations etc has been quite telling last year as opposed to the double team or the championship winning one. It got to the point where it annoyed me when certain players were laughing and joking with opposition players straight after the final whistle after getting humped away from home (forget who we played). My thoughts turned to wondering whether the team from a couple of years previous would have had the same wide grins and smiles or have the collective faces of disgust as if to say this isn't happening again anytime soon.

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: I never moan but........
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 15:45
Totally agree herbie, I know the days of the changing room door seen floating in a local river with fist size holes may be over but laughing and joking when a game has been lost is galling. Rewatch games on TV and you will see the coaches joking in the stand when we are losing,that's bad.I agree it is a culture thing, the old adage teamwork is not important in rugby it is everything. Who will inspire our Lions and England players on a wet Friday night v Sale? I don't want to hear we never do well there.All I ask is that we beat Tigers and Bath twice each. First game last year I took a Bath STH for his first visit to the Gardens, said of the atmosphere- there was none- Harry missed two kicks and I had a long journey home. It was obvious then it was going to be a tough season. If Jim has to take the players away and knock heads together do it. Do we have a win bonus and league position bonus? I like the one where players hurt if total application is not shown. Jones soon tells players what he expects, let us now do it. If there are bad apples within, be ruthless now before the season starts. COYS

 
LeicesterSaint
Re: I never moan but........
LeicesterSaint (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 16:00
On a topical note 'my father used to say everything before the but is horseh*t'!

 
Saint Stokey
Re: I never moan but........
Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 16:17
please could someone let me know when it's ok to talk about, or even look forward to the new season?

So far its been "last season was carp, the season before was pretty dire too."

I'm firmly in the 'looking forward to this season' camp. I think that there's some very exciting new individuals, there are some very talented youngsters who've had a season of bedding at previous clubs or at Saints and there's still the prospect of a Picamoles 'replacement'.

Oh, and we've got cheaper burgers and beer... from what I've read, one of the more important aspects of Northampton Drinking Rugby Club

 
tedge
Re: I never moan but........
tedge (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 16:37
Perhaps an over simplification but in most walk of life people are almost always receptive to constructive criticism if it is preceded by effusive praise for the good things - even if that bit is exaggerated for effect. As human beings we tend to respond well to praise - anyone out there who doesn't ?

 
Dick Dastardly
Re: I never moan but........
Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 19:19
I rarely moan these days but must take exception to the insinuation that my frequent use of Pixie Dust for various purposes somehow makes me dishonest - and apparently I should be better advised to this effect. Well my opinion is that most of the content of this thread is half-baked and simplistic (dust applied).

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 20:29
Quote:
Thrupp artist
I rarely moan these days but must take exception to the insinuation that my frequent use of Pixie Dust for various purposes somehow makes me dishonest - and apparently I should be better advised to this effect. Well my opinion is that most of the content of this thread is half-baked and simplistic (dust applied).


And instead of imparting the yeast of your knowledge you've decided to add to the loaf through a sarcastic one liner and subsequent derision.

That's a real pitta. Feel free to add value to debate instead of suggesting you can add value, whenever you feel like it.

 
Chris_the_Saint
Re: I never moan but........
Chris G (IP Logged)
19 July, 2017 15:42
You're on a roll Tom...

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
20 July, 2017 08:59
I always thought you roti well in the chron, I'm sure it was well followed by the upper crust. I know my granary used to read it every week. Unfortunately she's now brown bread, as is my other Naan. Ah crumbs life goes on.

 
BrianB
Re: I never moan but........
BrianB (IP Logged)
20 July, 2017 10:14
The jokes getting a little stale now.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: I never moan but........
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
20 July, 2017 11:01
Agreed the thread is toast, I will go back to looking at crumpet.


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