Northampton Saints

Wondering what people's thoughts are on what approach we should take Saturday & team selection to suit?

Of course more of the same would be nice but we need to adapt game plans to what's in front of us:
A embarrassed Gloucester on their home patch looking to make amends for last weeks hammering & a lacklustre start to a promising season.

Do we continue with Harry at 10 and continue as normal. Or go with Myler & a more pragmatic approach, kick the goals, tactical kicking, less wow factor but more consistency in game control.

Harry can appear to lose composure at times.

Myler might not get the backline firing the same but perhaps things will be different now everyone's on form around him?

Whichever one starts will give a big indication of tactics for the day.

Tactical kicking = giving it to Woodward. Don't do that.

I'd stick with winning formula for now......

Harry ' s not a 10 so I would start with Myler. Could be a close game so kicking the points will be important.

Stick with what works. Myler stands way too deep to let Burrell do his thing.

No change in the backs - Myler on the bench to manage game closure if required. Hartley to start or bench ?

When everyone is fit, Harry is the third best 10 at the club, at best. He says himself that he'd prefer to play 15.

Myler for me with Harry on the bench but what happens when Piers is fully integrated, it may give Jim a very awkward conversation with his son.

Play your best players in their best positions where possible and where fit. Harry is not the sole reason why the backs are scoring tries. We are finally getting some quick rucked ball from 6 7 and 8, we are winning collisions guys like Paterson are stepping up and turning over ball and our 9 is being given an easy ride. Burrell is certainly being afforded more space but there is confidence in the back line that allows players to play their game without fear of being caught short. For me Dylan is our best hooker and starts same with Myler at 10.

Myler for me with Harry on the bench (good cover for 10.12.13 or 15)
We are away from home, and prefer Mylers game management and more conservative approach.

Not sure if Courtney is due a rest, Wood, Gibson & Harrison as a possible back row which should provide plenty of ball carrying options for Groom to operate from.

We may have the luxury of a plan b, if chasing the game in 2nd half, if the Glaws that beat Chiefs turn up.

I don't get this obsession for dropping players from a winning team.

Harry has been part of a team that has won 4 games on the bounce and which has secured 19 out of a maximum of 25 league points.

On what basis can anyone here drop any player from the team other than for injury or rotation? (Fly half is hardly a rotation position)

By all means have Francis or Myler on the bench and bring on as needed but don't start dropping players just because you don't think they are the best in that position. After all, for all we know Harry's style might be perfect for Luther!

Quote:

Lamont4Saints
Stick with what works. Myler stands way too deep to let Burrell do his thing.

Yup, and Groom, Horne, Collins, North, Cortney, etc - bloody good player though and committed saint, so am sure if picked would up his game and surprise us all, again he’ll definitely get game time this season, but would personally go with young Harry, knowing exactly what myler could bring if Harry struggles at a tricky ground. Would like to think we’d be looking for 5 points, so would go attacking as possible with selection. We should be aiming for 4 tries every game

Quote:

TringSaint
I don't get this obsession for dropping players from a winning team.
Harry has been part of a team that has won 4 games on the bounce and which has secured 19 out of a maximum of 25 league points.

On what basis can anyone here drop any player from the team other than for injury or rotation? (Fly half is hardly a rotation position)

By all means have Francis or Myler on the bench and bring on as needed but don't start dropping players just because you don't think they are the best in that position. After all, for all we know Harry's style might be perfect for Luther!

Totally agree. One minute the same posters are suggesting players like Rob Horne have to earn the shirt. The next week they want to drop Harry with whom we've played the most exciting rugby in years.

I do agree other very important elements like better collisions, Groome rapidly ball etc.

IMHO Piers owns the shirt when fit, he's a super rugby 10 and in the England squad, can do it all. For now I'd stick with the winning formula....

Quote:

TringSaint
I don't get this obsession for dropping players from a winning team.
Harry has been part of a team that has won 4 games on the bounce and which has secured 19 out of a maximum of 25 league points.

On what basis can anyone here drop any player from the team other than for injury or rotation? (Fly half is hardly a rotation position)

By all means have Francis or Myler on the bench and bring on as needed but don't start dropping players just because you don't think they are the best in that position. After all, for all we know Harry's style might be perfect for Luther!

It’s not dropping it’s sensible rotation. Look at the games these players are playing, since 12 August there will have been a game every weekend until the first rest for the first team being 11 November when the AWC starts. Considering we have Clermont, Sarries, Exeter and Wasps after Gloucester there needs to be other options available. With all due respect to Harry, we’ve had some good wins but face tougher opposition to come. Whilst there has been some good, there has been some aimless kicking and game management which will be important in games to come.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2017 21:16 by andysaint.

Totally agree andysaint.
HLTW : I don't mean to be picky but you have contradicted yourself somewhat. You totally agree with not dropping players from a winning team yet as soon as Piers is fit tbe shirt is his no matter what !

I may be wrong but I think that Harry has played every minute of every game this season so might be due a rest.

For those who advocate not changing a wining team; when do the players get a rest? Nothing is won in October but sensible rotation now might pay off later in the season.

I wouldn't change the key members of this exciting,new and succesful back division and certainly not regress to a staid No 10.

Quote:

fleetg
Totally agree andysaint.
HLTW : I don't mean to be picky but you have contradicted yourself somewhat. You totally agree with not dropping players from a winning team yet as soon as Piers is fit tbe shirt is his no matter what !

Because Piers is awesome and Myler is not. IMHO different level.

No contradiction.

For the record I think we would be fine with any of the 3 at 10. Just Francis is another level than the other 2, hence why he is in Eddie's squad even whilst injured. And they're not.

It's a tough one, because overall I think Harry has done well at 10, but I thought our performance against Quins at home was not our best, % of kicking at goals should have been higher and a few kicks in play that went astray, although great combination with Collins for a very nice try.
If Francis fit I would be tempted to throw him in, but Myler otherwise, and if Dylan fit start him to add a bit of weight as I fear Gloucester will try to go back to basics and make it physical rather than an open game.

It sounds weird, but i think we need to win this, because the next 4 games look real tough Saracens, Clermont, Wasps, Exeter.

Quote:

TringSaint
I don't get this obsession for dropping players from a winning team.
Harry has been part of a team that has won 4 games on the bounce and which has secured 19 out of a maximum of 25 league points.

On what basis can anyone here drop any player from the team other than for injury or rotation? (Fly half is hardly a rotation position)!

Agree... stick with what's worked. He's done a good job, and until he consistently doesn't, he's earned the right to start.

There is also the perspective of building for the future.

We are evolving a style of play that doesn't play to Myler's strengths and his lack of attacking threat risks blunting the re-energised outside back players like North and Burrell who look confident and re-born.

IMHO it's a significant risk reverting back that we lose the new edge we have discovered. And it's not like we have the dominant scrum to play a kicking territory game anyway.

My take is looking to next season we will have Biggar, Francis and Mallinder as options at 10 whilst hoping Stephen gets a good contract elsewhere.

Up to the AW fixtures we play Gloucester & Clermont away and Saracens & Wasps at home, none you can regard as being a easier fixture.
Harry has done very well standing in at 10 but the plan I am pretty sure was not for him to play there long term.
When do you make the change? Do you hope that that we can stick with the current starting team and hope they can keep the same intensity for the next 4 fixtures?
IMO if any change is to be made at 10 then it is Francis in if fit with Myler on the bench. Starting Myler would be a backward step. Francis may be a unknown quantity in the Premiership but at some point you have to roll the dice.

First thing Myler did last week was take the ball up to the line.

We can't afford the kicking errors from Harry in the opening Euro games so either Myler or better Francis must be in the team by then although Harry could be at 15.

I expect Francis to start Saturday with Myler bench and Harry 15 or bench.
I think people are right that Courts might be rested. Especially if woody is fit. Interesting question about tight head.

Glaws will not revert to a tight game they don't have the players and the DOR hasn't coached it.

I suspect that Jim is having all of these thoughts going through his head. Easy for us to speculate, but what ever Jim goes for he will have to live by. Whatever happens I suspect some will find fault with and if we happen to not win, there will be some that said he should have done this and that.
Good luck to Jim and lets hope for another exciting game.

---

My gut feeling is to bring back Myler for game management and better goal kicking percentages. We will certainly need a regular outside half for the games to come. Harry does however bring something intangible to the party and his defensive lapses are not so badly exposed at ten than they would be at twelve or fifteen.
Gloucester will be hurting and eager to give a good showing at Csstle Grim in order to prevent a third consecutive Saints win on their turf. Saints do need some rotation with Saracens and Clermont just around the corner and if Wasps cannot fulfill a A league fixture then we might need to do it this weekend. We should be grateful that May has gone and that Charlie is injured.

Whilst I have expectations to the good for Francis, do we actually have that much evidence that he is 'awesome' Wolfie ?

We shall be there on saturday !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2017 10:14 by Mobbs.

I too am in the ain't broke don't fix it camp Use Smyler from the bench hopefully as in last week or earlier if needed. Haven't seen Piers yet so can't comment but if Eddie J picks him as soon as available then he must rate what he has seen. And Eddie J has probablyforgotten more about building a team and spotting talent than the collective wisdom on here. COYS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2017 11:06 by Bob Stainsby.

Francis has fast hands like Harry and can kick goals. So he can slot in to the existing pattern.

Harry made a fantastic 15's try saving intervention last week. Often at 15 you are a no chance last man - remember Fodes being put on his @#$%& by Goneva last season?

Quote:

fair_weather_fan
Francis has fast hands like Harry and can kick goals. So he can slot in to the existing pattern.
Harry made a fantastic 15's try saving intervention last week. Often at 15 you are a no chance last man - remember Fodes being put on his @#$%& by Goneva last season?

A very good point.

IMHO Harry doesn't have the technique or currently strength / centre of gravity to be a 12 channel defender, getting low and expecting that flat gain line ball to time the hit. But, as per your reference to his tackle on Yarde (I think) he could be fine at cover defence. I'm not sure I'd fancy Tuisova running at him head on, but neither would anyone...

We are top, after 18 months of constant "apprentice" mentality from both the media and supporters.. the risk of changing a winning side and going back to "Fire him.. and him.." would (IMHO) outweigh anything else

The only likely "drop" will be Patterson & Clare - as DW will want to bring back Wood, Hartley and Eadie
Courts to #4 alongside Ribbans - Api covering lock and backrow with TH on the bench

10 is trickier - I'd love to see Stephen play how he wants, not as instructed - but as a 100% team guy, he will (sadly) do his job - we do have the luxury we could have both Stephen (who started on the left wing) and Piers on the bench - tough on Stephenson though

Don't envy Jim this week - we have some excellent options at 9, 10, 12, 13 and if they dont start they cant all make the bench unless we go with less than 5 forward replacements, and that's not going to happen!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2017 12:19 by Saint Robert.

Fair weather- whilst I remember the incident I object to Foden's defence at fullback being regarded as poor because of is! I remember him being generally excellent in defence, taking man and ball almost every time to stop quick fast offloading which kills teams once the line's been broken.

Quote:

saintsfella
Fair weather- whilst I remember the incident I object to Foden's defence at fullback being regarded as poor because of is! I remember him being generally excellent in defence, taking man and ball almost every time to stop quick fast offloading which kills teams once the line's been broken.

Agreed - I haven't seen any depreciation in Foden's defensive abilities - he might have lost a bit of pace in attack though

I think you misunderstand me. I was saying how exposed FB can sometimes be. Had I said even Fodes got exposed sometimes.... etc.

Quote:

St tub
We are top, after 18 months of constant "apprentice" mentality from both the media and supporters.. the risk of changing a winning side and going back to "Fire him.. and him.." would (IMHO) outweigh anything else
The only likely "drop" will be Patterson & Clare - as DW will want to bring back Wood, Hartley and Eadie
Courts to #4 alongside Ribbans - Api covering lock and backrow with TH on the bench

10 is trickier - I'd love to see Stephen play how he wants, not as instructed - but as a 100% team guy, he will (sadly) do his job - we do have the luxury we could have both Stephen (who started on the left wing) and Piers on the bench - tough on Stephenson though

Totally agree. Remember we had 2 years of dross and we've had a good start to this season. That is not a well-bed winning culture...

Has Stephen explained how he "wants" to play?

It would be interesting to now how much freedom the players are given to play "their" way. SM has been labeled a conservative flyhalf who stands deep, does not commit defenders and hence restricts the centre's options. However how much is this a game plan and how much is it how he wants to play ? We don't know if he could or wants to play closer to the line.

Take the infamous inside pass move. Been used for years by SM, usually to the 12, with minimal success. Suddenly the same move, when used between HM and TC it is opening up defenses like a can opener. Lots of factors at play here - TC is certainly hitting the line at greater speed and has the foot work to beat the first defender. Is HM better at executing it - weight of pass, calling it at the right time ? I couldn't say.

As for the Glaws game, its one of those tough gnarly away games where Saints will be looking to dog out a point at least, 4 would be excellent.

Stephen learnt his trade in league.. there's nothing instinctive in that game re standing 10 yards off the gain line and kicking 85% of the ball you are given

His break last week was class, coinciding (maybe?) with the fact he has nothing to lose?, being 3rd choice and per the above - should be let go at the end of the season

What I'm struggling with is where Biggar is going to play with Piers nailed on at 10?
Unless Piers is up for a Mike Catt / Jimmy Gopperth 10/12 cameo - both Johnny and Danny C were (are) hugely supported by having such an option around them

As long as we match the intensity with which we played tigs and barf, we should have enough.

The games against Irish as Quins, whilst winning left a fair bit to be desired. On both occasions, we allowed the opposition to be in with a chance. This we need to sort out. Start well and end well is the key.

I'm not sure how the missed A league game will have effected the like of Wood and Francis so i can see them on the bench.

I think the Myler vs Harry choice is a tough one, but it's a nice one to have.

Gloucester have some electric backs so Mylers typical kicking game may not be what's needed, it may also be exactly what Gloucester are expecting with Mylers return to fitness.

So, for me, I'd rest Courtney in readiness for Europe or at least have him on the bench. If we can load up on our forwards sizing we should get some dominance at scrum time.

So id go with...

Ace
North
Horne
Burrell
Collins
Harry
Groom
Waller
Dylan
Brookes
Ali
Ribbans
Paterson
Gibson
Harrison

Assuming everyone is fit.

Bench would be

Haywood
Ma'afu
Ford Robinson
Lawes
Wood
Reinach
Francis
Foden

Whenever Dylan comes off, Courtney to come on as Captain. Harry to continue as he has done previously with Francis to come on and hopefully exploit some tiring legs with his Super Rugby experience.

No half measures... go for the jugular!

Quote:

Thrupp artist
Has Stephen explained how he "wants" to play?

Not sure but I’d imagine it involves being with Tiny, Mooj & Manoa. He’s got the skill

Cobus has to start at some point. No demotion for Nic just a simple rest would be good when we have four usable effective scrummies

Don't really care who is picked jus score mote points that the oppos. Easy plan