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SaintsAsh
Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 14:23
After losing to Sarries and hearing the booing; I thought to my self is that what winning does to a club?

Don't get me wrong winning is great and of course the idea is to win, but there are many ways to win. Rugby wins because it is a sport of respect; once we lose respect to aid our winning; we have lost.

So has winning the prem made us want more of the same, of course it has! We should be weary though of losing respect in our hunger to win.

Even with all the advantages afforded Sarries, as a club we should through hard work be determined to compete with them. Yes they can buy the best skills and conditioning coaches around but passion is something we need to find. But let us not find passion at the expense of respect, let the players find passion OUT of respect for all the fans that pay their wages; and most importantly out of respect for themselves.

Come on people, don't turn rugby into a football culture.

This was posted on Saint and Sinners on facebook:
Video

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Stockers (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 14:51
Marginal gains. Improve everything we do by a small amount and the overall effect is beneficial. Sarries have done that and are reaping the rewards.

There is no single quick fix. Every single thing done by every single member of staff, playing or non playing, has to be always a little bit better.

 
herbie85
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
herbie85 (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 15:01
Ash, I like the points you make, however I'm not convinced the booing is due to success. I watched us win the European cup moons ago as I'm sure many did. This didn't turn everyone to booing. Likewise we won several other competitions prior to our premiership win.

Personally I think it has more to do with the game becoming more professional, along with some of the package that comes with.

People generally boo out of frustration. At the saints this can manifest itself in many ways, cost being one. You want to feel you have value for money and some effort. I can accept losing and invariably you support a team and you have highs and lows. I didn't boo at the weekend but felt like booing at 'myself' if I'm honest, for spending £100 plus to go and watch a non-competitive rugby game. But I agree with your point, I go to rugby for many reasons, but one of them is that the crowd involvement and interaction is so much better than a football crowd and would hate have it become too similar.

I think the booing is a manifestation and frustration of quite chronic under performance from the saints for some time (including some of this season).

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 15:07
Quote:
Stockers
Marginal gains. Improve everything we do by a small amount and the overall effect is beneficial. Sarries have done that and are reaping the rewards.
There is no single quick fix. Every single thing done by every single member of staff, playing or non playing, has to be always a little bit better.

I agree, Sarries have polished a way of playing for years, they are all bought in. We reverted to type, we need to stop being desperate to win prem short term, we need a plan and need to buy into that plan and polish it. It might take some time.

The games we won were won using fast aggressive clear outs, hard work of the ball by forwards to get around the corner into packs, resulting in quick ball to attack from etc etc. We just reverted back to type and paid the price (not that we would have won regardless as Sarries have it more polished.)

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 15:08
Quote:
I think the booing is a manifestation and frustration of quite chronic under performance from the saints for some time

Yeah it is probably frustration.

 
tboullem
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Mobbs (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 15:11
I have some sympathy with this point of view. If Saints had kicked on and matured to match the team that Saracens have become, then maybe we would all be happy but as far as the 'Franklins Gardens experience' is concerned, I just do not get the same sense of enjoyment anymore - win or lose. Performance aside, the game has changed and the atmosphere, the buzz, at tne Gardens is not what it once seemed to be. We cannot fill the expanded stadium, even against Tigers, and I would guess we are at least a thousand season tickets down on where we once were.

Rugby is getting itself into a dangerous situation. Costs are rising, players want more reward but crowds are falling across the board; a family day at the Rugby is an expensive business. I used to think that when I retired, I would be able to go off to most if not all away games but unsocial kick-off tims allied to costs and the 50/50 chance of the game being on TV make that ever more unlikely. If BT decide to spend even more on football and less on rugby, how much of an impact will that have on the Premiership clubs ? I remain of the view that one of the 'big budget clubs' will come a cropper sooner or later - how much money can be tipped into a bottomless pit before the tap is turned off ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/10/2017 17:25 by Mobbs.

 
GOD
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 15:32
Saints Ash thanks for posting that video clip here and whoever posted it on S&S I think it should be played on the big screen at FG before our next (Wasps) home game just as a little reminder what a great game and tradition we watch.

I Don't like booing its mindless so don't do it personally. I am not a 'holier than thou supporter' and can often advise sir with my vast knowledge* That display of Rugby by Sarries was asuperb demonstartion of a team at the top of its game and I reckon no team in the prem and probably Europe too couldhave lived with it on the day. I went to FG on Sunday night not expecting to win (I rarely do this is sport after all) I hoped for an entertaing competitive contest with possibly an LBP the entertainment was there after I realised we were in for another humping and watched the oppo display but the competition from Saints was totally absent with the odd exception (futile in a 15 man game) Lets call it for what it was, at for a home, on our turf, at FG it was a totalHumiliation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 19/10/2017 07:53 by Bob Stainsby.

 
Brewster345
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Brewster345 (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 16:12
I do think the cost is a huge part of it. There definitely a feeling of wanting to be entertained when tickets to stand are now £38 for some matches. Doesn't excuse the booing, but certainly gives a reason why some may do it.

 
tedge
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
tedge (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 16:17
I am apalled when I, sitting in the Church's stand, hear people, including young children mimicking their parents, around me screaming "Off, Off, Off" whenever the TMO looks at an incident involving an opposition player. This kind of chanting is moronic and very unsporting - not the kind of ethos I want at FG and one which will probably drive me away eventually.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/10/2017 19:51 by tedge.

 
northampton_lad
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
northampton_lad (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 17:22
Afraid I think it's a sign of the times, agree the booing is terrible to hear but I think it comes down to

a) Fans expecting more entertainment for their money
b) We live in a society where we are less patient and want results instantly

I also think sometimes a small minority of players do not help the situation, in particular I thought the Chris Ashton's Ash Splash only served to wind opposition fans up.

When I was playing there was so much more sporting and being honest with ref e.g. if your foot was in touch or you'd committed an offence, players were a lot more honest and helped the refs out. I can't remember the last time I saw something like that on the rugby pitch, it seems to be get away with whatever you can.

I don't know what can be done about it, but I have to admit I am also of the brigade who do not enjoy rugby as much as use to. Not only because of negative atmosphere at gardens but the way the game is being run.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/10/2017 17:24 by northampton_lad.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 17:41
Winning and gentlemanly conduct are not mutually exclusive


See Anthony Joshua (or his fans at Klitschko fight)


Some Saints fans just always blame anyone but the team for losses which manifests into booing ref or opposition, sometimes

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 17:42
and no, I never ever wish we didnít win the prem..... nor do I think theyíre vaguely related

 
LaurieK
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
LaurieK (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 18:05
And Sarries fans are not angels. Some of the chants coming from the South corner were more akin to football. Perhaps they have still got some of their Watford supporters. And they were winning.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 18:18
I believe there is a deeper problem whereby the board havenít put processes and actions in place to preserve the Saints culture....

You could just be attending any well supported sports team rather than the Saints. Lack of identity and history at the games IMHO. Which is such an open goal missed.

Munster do it very well, for example. Tigers better than us.

 
Brackleysaint
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Brackleysaint (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 18:58
Sat watching in despair at they way things were going. Wasn't impressed with the continual booing of Farrell after the initial incident, but at no point did it cross my mind that the crowds actions could be due to high expectations after winning the premiership, it's a change in culture unfortunately.
I never believed I would witness the Saints win the title and they did, something I will remember for the rest of my days, so I for one will never regret the title win no matter what.

 
St Marcus
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
St Marcus (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 20:20
Gosh, so what punishment would you guys recommend for these evil people that boo and chant for a player to be sent off? Execution? 50 lashes?*

This kind of thing is not confined to Saints - most of the more vocal crowds do it eg Glaws, Tigers. I don't think it is particularly unreasonable to sometimes boo blatant or conitinued foul play by opposition if the officials are oblivious. However, I would say that booing whilst a kick is being taken is a different matter. I think that the Farrell incident was dealt with correctly in the end, but it is worth adding that the way the replays in the ground were shown (ie not looking at T provoking Farrell prior to the elbow) do put a different slant on things and affect the crowd's reaction.

On the subject of the prem win, it was a glorious day but for me there was certainly an element of complacency in the season or two after that, where a failure to evolve has now left us playing catchup. This I would argue is the only unwanted legacy of that win...

 
Walks11
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Walks11 (IP Logged)
18 October, 2017 22:56
we shouldn't be booing and we shouldn't be calling for people to be sent off for a tackle.. The laws have changed in recent years where a once good tackle is now illegal (rightly so), but the jeering for yellow cards at the slightest hint of a high tackle is not right IMO. Farrells tackle was borderline and wouldn't have warranted a comment a couple of years ago he got some afters from TH and responded. He was then treated like a pantomime villain.. it was all rather pathetic. this sort of behaviour is one of the reasons I stopped buying a season ticket.

And no its not just behaviour specific to the Saints, there are far worse crowds around



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/10/2017 22:57 by Walks11.

 
Ol'oneeye
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Ol'oneeye (IP Logged)
19 October, 2017 04:58
Part of the problem at Saints was and is that when we won the premiership it was a "mission accomplished" moment. As opposed to a "start of the journey" moment which seems to be Sarries model.

The recruitment after that win was suspect/non existant and the loyalty shown, whilst admirable, was not necessarily productive or conducive to continuing success.
This is easy to say with hindsight but there were some eyebrows raised at the time about our lack of signings I seem to remember.

 
GOD
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
19 October, 2017 08:00
Quote:
Wolfy
I believe there is a deeper problem whereby the board havenít put processes and actions in place to preserve the Saints culture....
You could just be attending any well supported sports team rather than the Saints. Lack of identity and history at the games IMHO. Which is such an open goal missed.

Munster do it very well, for example. Tigers better than us.

^Thisthumbs down And whilst the worst case of lack of respect/poor conduct is recent before the game a short announcement by Uncle geoff re conduct then play the linked video clip on the big screens and all of us in the stands if booing or similar breaks out around us should remind folk "aww c'mon we are better than that"

 
Brackleysaint
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Brackleysaint (IP Logged)
19 October, 2017 08:15
You're right Bob, a sermon from Geoffrey would be ideal, there will be some that will get on they high horse about being preached to but "hey ho"

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
19 October, 2017 09:32
I wish I had been more sober at HQ when we won. Prem Final tickets now available, for many years I imagined Saints would be there or close. I'm still shocked by Sarries result and guess a mid table finish is the best we can hope for.

 
GOD
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
19 October, 2017 10:16
OH forgot to adress the sentiment originally expressed re winning the prem it was one of the best Saintly days of my 20 odd year support. Defineately up there, along with the day at the Madstad v Scarlets, then the subsequent win over Munster. Also that away quarter final win over Biarritz in 2007 (what a tour!)

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Matthew (IP Logged)
19 October, 2017 10:36
Could it be said that there a bit of a victim mentality at the Gardens, which contributes to the booing? For instance, I've read a number of times that if it had been Hartley instead of Farrell then there would probably have been a red card for the elbow, and there may be some truth to that.



ACTUAL BEHIND-THE-SCENES TRAINING
FOOTAGE FROM SARACENS:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37800000/Scrooge-McDuck-gif-mickey-and-friends-37815657-245-188.gif

 
Dick Dastardly
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
19 October, 2017 11:02
Winning makes all but the psychopath magnanimous and to have been at the top for awhile was great and not to missed for any (old) long-time supporter. It's a worthwhile ambition to try and get back to those levels and I would enjoy it just as much second time around. The latter point "Dylan's Elbow" is I reckon a fascinating one both in terms of the perception of us (the victim mentality) and the reality concerning the identification of serious foul play involving the off-field feed to refs, the mindset of refs regarding individual players (Barnes) and most of all the terribly inconsistent disciplinary panels.

 
Waldofez
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Waldo (IP Logged)
19 October, 2017 14:22
Genuine question .

We were just discussing this in the pub at lunchtime. (obviously that is where the most important discussions take place)

Here we are talking about the "club" as in the playing element , not including the supporter base .

Did Saints see Winning the premiership as the pinnacle (ie. Job done).

Whereas did Sarries see winning the premiership as just the beginning , a stepping stone to greater things?

Is that the difference ? - discuss .

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Why In some ways I wish we had never won prem.
Abington Adam (IP Logged)
19 October, 2017 22:02
Quote:
Walks11
we shouldn't be booing and we shouldn't be calling for people to be sent off for a tackle.. The laws have changed in recent years where a once good tackle is now illegal (rightly so), but the jeering for yellow cards at the slightest hint of a high tackle is not right IMO. Farrells tackle was borderline and wouldn't have warranted a comment a couple of years ago he got some afters from TH and responded. He was then treated like a pantomime villain.. it was all rather pathetic. this sort of behaviour is one of the reasons I stopped buying a season ticket.
And no its not just behaviour specific to the Saints, there are far worse crowds around

I think part of the problem is the (perceived?) lack of consistency in the application of the laws. Tackles such as Farrel's are poured over on TV, we're told that as soon as the tackled player's legs go above horizontal (Foden's did) then the tackler's in big trouble and we get mixed messages about contact with the head e.g. Dylan's red for an elbow against Tigs. One week player safety is the be all and end all, the next a bit of common sense is the order of the day. Fans obviously hope to see the laws applied to the benefit of their team and the whole theatre of playing controversial incidents on the big screen whips up the crowd resulting in the inevitable "off, off, off" and a degree of angst when the ref has a different interpretation.


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