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GOD
Season defining?
Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 09:15
Could that be our next 3 games? Wuss away has always been a bit of a bogey for Saints, The following week at the AJB v Sale is a toughie as we have found and then back to FG for Falcons who the cunning and experince of Mr Richards is showing in the team he has built up there. So I guess my point (worry?) is lose 2 out of those 3 and it starts to be an uphill battle. Nervous? moi? you bet!

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 09:20
Depends what you mean by that.

IMHO our season was defined when we were humped by 2 top 4 sides. We may struggle around and squeeze into 4th but we ainít winning jack.

 
St tub
Re: Season defining?
St tub (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 09:41
Isn't life (and this board) funny at times..
I log on via rugbynetwork - the current headline reads..

Quote:
Blues Brothers, up to third.. Eight games and 3rd place - we'd have settled for that back in early September

What a refreshing thought from a side that (being honest) hasn't won anything in a long time (ECC in 2010!)

Can I suggest a few less warpy thoughts, sit back and try and enjoy the rugby - the wins v Tiggs and Bath springing to mind, rather than an expectation we have somehow always had a superstar studded 1-23 side we didn't know about (with accompanying multi-million losses per year)

 
tedge
Re: Season defining?
tedge (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 10:13
[quote St tub]




Can I suggest a few less warpy thoughts, sit back and try and enjoy the rugby - the wins v Tiggs and Bath springing to mind, rather than an expectation we have somehow always had a superstar studded 1-23 side we didn't know about (with accompanying multi-million losses per year)[/quote

You'd have to not mind losing though



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/11/2017 20:11 by tedge.

 
GOD
Re: Season defining?
Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 10:33
Quote:
Wolfie
Depends what you mean by that.
I tend to agree with your post/clarification However I was trying to forget the humpings.

Quote:
St Tub
Can I suggest a few less warpy thoughts, sit back and try and enjoy the rugby - the wins v Tiggs and Bath springing to mind, rather than an expectation we have somehow always had a superstar studded 1-23 side we didn't know about (with accompanying multi-million losses per year)

Warpy thoughts? ahead warp factor 9 Scotty winking smiley Actually just expressing a little nervousness is all. And NO I do not expect us to win everytime I attend FG just compete and entertain as I stated in an earlier post. What I DO expect is improvement from the last 2 seasons as a mark of progress.

You might be prepared to settle for mid (or lower) table mediocrity this is Saints my team and I most certainly do not. So if thatís ĎWarpyí then beam me up! (Sm25)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/11/2017 11:04 by Bob Stainsby.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 10:48
Some of us arenít happy getting our behinds handed to us by the decent sides, in our back yard. I find it humiliating. I like to think we could at least be competitive, in our back yard, against anyone.

Money does not excuse the chasm in quality between us and the top sides. We hose money around the squad inefficiently, we canít complain about money whilst doing so. 9 centres? Marquee winger? 2 super rugby 9s? 2 top 10s next year? A legion of young props, some of whom are v expensive.

I understand the comment about enjoying the rugby, but with regards Saints I am not wired that way. Itís been a constant since I was 6 years old and my passport birthplace says Northampton. Having a social enjoying the rugby is not what Iím in it for. Itís just a different motivation.


I donít expect us to win everything every year but I do expect us to be competitive. Currently we are miles away from the better sides. Bath and Leicester are both still average, albeit Tigers improving.

 
ElySaint
Re: Season defining?
ElySaint (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 10:54
I have somewhat managed / lessened my expectations of what Saints will achieve for the moment. By no means did I expect us to win every week anyway, but now, even less so. Iíve accepted that weíve fallen behind the pelaton (sp?) and weíve a great deal to address to catch back up.

What does annoy me is that we show signs of being very good. This may seem perverse, of course, but itís just that it highlights how inconsistent we are. Everytime I begin to get excited about Saints rugby, they force me to lower my expectations again by getting humped. Itís exhausting!

And, yes, I think this is a huge few weeks. In the context that weíve won inly one game in 6. Momentum and morale needs building here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/11/2017 12:41 by ElySaint.

 
St tub
Re: Season defining?
St tub (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 11:28
Warped..

Best (or close) pack in the league

You lot are boring - no running rugby (media / pundits / fans / Craig Doyle)

Keep getting asset stripped in the pack (props, locks, hookers, backrow) - but replace them

..but someone decides time to listen - we invest a ton of cash in backs

Spend loads on backs (and an amazing #8)

Get asset stripped in the pack (again)

"Result"..
Quote:
Wolfy
9 centres? Marquee winger? 2 super rugby 9s? 2 top 10s next year? A legion of young props, some of whom are v expensive

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 11:51
If youíre suggesting that the coaches decided to invest in the backs not the pack, because we won the league playing boring rugby ....... then what exactly does that suggest about the coaches ?


I donít believe that by the way. The recruited poorly in the forwards post Tiny/Mooj/Corbs. Dorian thought he could turn the young props into world beaters. He canít. We were then diabolical in the backs. Theyíve now over recruited in the backs, and still donít have enough in the forwards.


The above just describes very poor resource management.

 
andysaint
Re: Season defining?
andysaint (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 11:52
Looking at the table, it is rather average:

Position 6 Played 7 Wins 4 Losses 3 Points for 188 Points against

However, having played 3 of the teams above us and Wasps, it is rather in line with my expectations, I think we probably should have looked at getting a W against Wasps at home as for me, winning the home games should be a big priority in the league this season. We are only 1 point off 3rd and level on points with 3 other sides so I don't think the table looks too bad.

Performances of course on the pitch are another matter.

Securing 12 points in the next 3 league games should be an achievable target IMHO and would really help give us some momentum prior to the return of the international players and North from injury. Anything less than 8 points would be a problem.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 11:54
Quote:
andysaint
Looking at the table, it is rather average:
Position 6 Played 7 Wins 4 Losses 3 Points for 188 Points against

However, having played 3 of the teams above us and Wasps, it is rather in line with my expectations, I think we probably should have looked at getting a W against Wasps at home as for me, winning the home games should be a big priority in the league this season. We are only 1 point off 3rd and level on points with 3 other sides so I don't think the table looks too bad.

Performances of course on the pitch are another matter.

Securing 12 points in the next 3 league games should be an achievable target IMHO and would really help give us some momentum prior to the return of the international players and North from injury. Anything less than 8 points would be a problem.


I get that but what does it say when our expectations are now HOPING but not expecting that we hit the boardís MINIMUM expectations.

It is just not good enough.

 
andysaint
Re: Season defining?
andysaint (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 12:21
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
Quote:
andysaint
Looking at the table, it is rather average:
Position 6 Played 7 Wins 4 Losses 3 Points for 188 Points against

However, having played 3 of the teams above us and Wasps, it is rather in line with my expectations, I think we probably should have looked at getting a W against Wasps at home as for me, winning the home games should be a big priority in the league this season. We are only 1 point off 3rd and level on points with 3 other sides so I don't think the table looks too bad.

Performances of course on the pitch are another matter.

Securing 12 points in the next 3 league games should be an achievable target IMHO and would really help give us some momentum prior to the return of the international players and North from injury. Anything less than 8 points would be a problem.


I get that but what does it say when our expectations are now HOPING but not expecting that we hit the boardís MINIMUM expectations.

It is just not good enough.

It depends on your outlook. For me, the league table shows where I expected us to be so anything more will be a happy bonus. I am quite content with that save for when the performance on the pitch is not up to Premiership level.

 
St tub
Re: Season defining?
St tub (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 13:04
I'm 100% with Andy - we are top 6 - that's my expectation
If we make the play-off's - awesome - as we know, finishing top doesn't mean you get a final or a trophy

Wolfy - being fair

Tiny and Mooj were replaced by Corbs and Salesi (and we won the premiership)
The loosehead backup that entire time was Alex, who one could argue "came good" and Gareth Denman (who to my eyes never let us down)

Otherwise..
PDJ didn't progress (ask his mum her thoughts at Wasps when we go there)
Brookes I think had huge potential but England (Lancaster) messed with him - he got too big, bad leg injury and has struggled since
Hilly should have been allowed to develop but got a cap too soon (good luck to him but...) - he got taught a lesson v Leinster

We messed up at lock
We thought Woody was away with England so recruited around that (and Courts)

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 15:08
You have just described poor recruitment and management of the front 5 (I know Corbs replaced Tiny). There are no excuses.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Season defining?
Stockers (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 16:36
Perspective.....

We are 6th in the Premiership, on 20 points.

If we had one more point we'd be equal third with Tiggs.


I can't hear any obese sopranos just yet!

 
Eif Jones
Re: Season defining?
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 17:41
But Corbs had the injury that forced his retirement when we recruited him, didn't we lose our conditioning coach because of this??

Note, we play all but Saracens of the top sides away post Xmas, do we look forward to that? any slip up at home against the weaker sides would thus be a disaster.

Too many on this thread sound like the Brexiteers - 'We are optimistic that we will get a good deal' when reality all but suggests otherwise.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Season defining?
Neil-H (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 18:02
Quote:
Eif Jones
But Corbs had the injury that forced his retirement when we recruited him, didn't we lose our conditioning coach because of this??

Sorry Eif, but that is wrong, Alex sadly also did his other knee, i wonít go into the details as itís Alexís business but he also underwent some pretty horrific ground breaking treatment to try and repair them, then he also got a shoulder injury, they all took there toll.

 
Walks11
Re: Season defining?
Walks11 (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 18:02
Quote:
St tub
I'm 100% with Andy - we are top 6 - that's my expectation
If we make the play-off's - awesome - as we know, finishing top doesn't mean you get a final or a trophy

Wolfy - being fair

Tiny and Mooj were replaced by Corbs and Salesi (and we won the premiership)
The loosehead backup that entire time was Alex, who one could argue "came good" and Gareth Denman (who to my eyes never let us down)

Otherwise..
PDJ didn't progress (ask his mum her thoughts at Wasps when we go there)
Brookes I think had huge potential but England (Lancaster) messed with him - he got too big, bad leg injury and has struggled since
Hilly should have been allowed to develop but got a cap too soon (good luck to him but...) - he got taught a lesson v Leinster

We messed up at lock
We thought Woody was away with England so recruited around that (and Courts)

Thatís a good summary St Tub. Itís also easy to be critical in hindsight. I donít remember anyone saying at the time these guys were poor signings. Brookeís, Hill & Waller have all had international experience so we did something right initially. The problem is they havenít kicked on as they should. Scrum law changes perhaps? They also havenít become bad players over night rather just not fulfilling potential. If we think we have seen the best of them ship them out if we believe they are right for the job a new forwards coach is therefore the answer.

 
andysaint
Re: Season defining?
andysaint (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 18:15
Quote:
Stockers
Perspective.....
We are 6th in the Premiership, on 20 points.

If we had one more point we'd be equal third with Tiggs.


I can't hear any obese sopranos just yet!

Yep and I think it will be quite tight until the end of the season. Sarries and Exeter are out front on their own. Tigers are hitting some form next up. Then there is Saints Newcastle Bath Wasps Quins and Gloucester who are midfield contenders, have had good days, bad days and average days. Each are probably capable of beating each other on a given day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/11/2017 19:20 by andysaint.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 18:30
Quote:
Walks11
Quote:
St tub
I'm 100% with Andy - we are top 6 - that's my expectation
If we make the play-off's - awesome - as we know, finishing top doesn't mean you get a final or a trophy

Wolfy - being fair

Tiny and Mooj were replaced by Corbs and Salesi (and we won the premiership)
The loosehead backup that entire time was Alex, who one could argue "came good" and Gareth Denman (who to my eyes never let us down)

Otherwise..
PDJ didn't progress (ask his mum her thoughts at Wasps when we go there)
Brookes I think had huge potential but England (Lancaster) messed with him - he got too big, bad leg injury and has struggled since
Hilly should have been allowed to develop but got a cap too soon (good luck to him but...) - he got taught a lesson v Leinster

We messed up at lock
We thought Woody was away with England so recruited around that (and Courts)

Thatís a good summary St Tub. Itís also easy to be critical in hindsight. I donít remember anyone saying at the time these guys were poor signings. Brookeís, Hill & Waller have all had international experience so we did something right initially. The problem is they havenít kicked on as they should. Scrum law changes perhaps? They also havenít become bad players over night rather just not fulfilling potential. If we think we have seen the best of them ship them out if we believe they are right for the job a new forwards coach is therefore the answer.



Ok so the coaching team not improving international props. Is that a criticism of the coaching team or not? There has to be some accountability here.

Sorry I said at the time we should spend marquee money on a loosehead. And I say it today, Iíd let North go and spend it on a monster, I will let Robby Richmond create a list. Great player George but a luxury when we donít have a set piece that gets him the ball.

Iím saying now having 2 super rugby 9s is a waste of money (with mitchell). Iím saying now Biggar and Francis is a waste of money (with Grayson). Iím saying now that 9 centres is purely bad planning. A marquee winger with a budget scrum is also very poor asset allocation.


All of the above is the responsibility of the current management team. Posters suggest the squad has somehow fallen into the lap of the coaches. Or that players just improve naturally. Theyíve had a decade to build this team, the buck stops with them.


There needs to be accountability for blatant errors.

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Season defining?
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 19:04
There is only one way to eat an elephant.

Our biggest issue is the scrum. New personnel or new coach is the answer. Once thats fixed we can move on.

 
Walks11
Re: Season defining?
Walks11 (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 21:20
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
Quote:
Walks11
Quote:
St tub
I'm 100% with Andy - we are top 6 - that's my expectation
If we make the play-off's - awesome - as we know, finishing top doesn't mean you get a final or a trophy

Wolfy - being fair

Tiny and Mooj were replaced by Corbs and Salesi (and we won the premiership)
The loosehead backup that entire time was Alex, who one could argue "came good" and Gareth Denman (who to my eyes never let us down)

Otherwise..
PDJ didn't progress (ask his mum her thoughts at Wasps when we go there)
Brookes I think had huge potential but England (Lancaster) messed with him - he got too big, bad leg injury and has struggled since
Hilly should have been allowed to develop but got a cap too soon (good luck to him but...) - he got taught a lesson v Leinster

We messed up at lock
We thought Woody was away with England so recruited around that (and Courts)

Thatís a good summary St Tub. Itís also easy to be critical in hindsight. I donít remember anyone saying at the time these guys were poor signings. Brookeís, Hill & Waller have all had international experience so we did something right initially. The problem is they havenít kicked on as they should. Scrum law changes perhaps? They also havenít become bad players over night rather just not fulfilling potential. If we think we have seen the best of them ship them out if we believe they are right for the job a new forwards coach is therefore the answer.



Ok so the coaching team not improving international props. Is that a criticism of the coaching team or not? There has to be some accountability here.

Sorry I said at the time we should spend marquee money on a loosehead. And I say it today, Iíd let North go and spend it on a monster, I will let Robby Richmond create a list. Great player George but a luxury when we donít have a set piece that gets him the ball.

Iím saying now having 2 super rugby 9s is a waste of money (with mitchell). Iím saying now Biggar and Francis is a waste of money (with Grayson). Iím saying now that 9 centres is purely bad planning. A marquee winger with a budget scrum is also very poor asset allocation.


All of the above is the responsibility of the current management team. Posters suggest the squad has somehow fallen into the lap of the coaches. Or that players just improve naturally. Theyíve had a decade to build this team, the buck stops with them.


There needs to be accountability for blatant errors.

I donít think anyone is saying their shouldnít be accountability. The suggestion is the squad isnít that bad with exception of one or two positions which need strengthening. And certainly no-one is disagreeing with some action to rectify the scrum be that coaching or players

Biggar is a bit of a misnoma right now as he isnít here yet, so it may be better to judge the squad with him in it next season when there should be departures to accomodate. If for sake of argument Myler or Grayson leave then The make up of the squad at 10 looks more balanced. So too could 1 or 2 centres.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 22:03
You said no-one was complaining about recruitment of the props. Iím saying I did and Iím complaining now about Biggar. Not because he isnít a good player but we arenít a rich club and Piers/Grays is good enough IMHO. Especially when need resources elsewhere.

Now you canít say no-one said etc!

:-)

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Season defining?
Neil-H (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 07:45
Hungry... letís talk Biggar/Piers?

Suppose they play 10/12? Foden as rumoured is off at end of season, so you have Harry and Ace covering 15/Bench.. imho doesnít seem so stupid then, I think we would have improved both our option at 10/12 with decent cover in Harry if needed moving to 12 or we have Stephenson who needs to have a decent run not being injured to really be included in any longer term plans. Add a fit Hone into the mix at 13 and thatís a very good back line.

Foden if leaving will give you a nice chunk of salary cap, surely more than either Piers or Harry at a hunch?

Maybe then George wouldnít be such a luxury? However I do tend to agree with your sentiment that Iíd rather spend money to sure up the pack.

The squads and signing as and when who are available to sign must have cross over somewhere unless we very lucky, so you get the balance needed across the squad.

With regards Michell and Grayson... itís to early imho to judge Grayson, his games control, temperament etc, what we have seen of him so far he shows promise, but also a bit dubious at times, but we should be playing him In The AW cup, the jury is still out on him for me, but has the ability obviously, itís the above mentioned.

Mitchell is a different level, watched him in U20s and he shone was a level above most on the pitch, did all the things I like in a 9, and b3st of all makes that decision quick and he is exactly the same when playing for us! Challenge was, he hadnít really played for us at top level before the Reniach signing, so would have been a gamble or risk if he was given 2nd spot almost blind at this level and an injury away from having to start, as we know Kessell always gave us 110% but sadly couldnít make that extra step to premiership level (imho). But again Mitchell should be starting AW games

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 08:06
You raise a good point Neil

For some reason rugby is so opaque when it comes to contracts. In football, all fans know which players contracts are due up, who is in talks etc. For some reason rugby is still in the dark ages with regards information, or maybe thatís just Saints.


I understand about Piers playing 12 but remember his favoured position is 10. Add into that I also feel there are many other cheaper / better value 10s available. I can list a load of kiwis for you? Each of them is more dangerous ball in hand than Biggar - to my kind Biggar was a lazy piece of recruitment, it didnít take a lot of scouting to think that one up. Also remember heís away 1/3 of the season.


How many of our centres are leaving? If none, and we discount North who can play centre and Harry, assume Horne is in, then what do these guys do next season?

Burrell
Stephenson
Estelles
Tuitavake
Hutchinson

As I say add in Piers, Harry, North, Horne then thatís 9 possible centres.


I donít think Biggar recruitment is a disaster, heís a good player and supposedly a great guy. BUT there is better value out there and Iíd rather we spent it on props - for choice. If rumours we are spending £750k on him are true, we could get both a top kiwi 10 and a mean prop for the same money.

 
St tub
Re: Season defining?
St tub (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 08:59
I expect Brookes, Ma'Afu, Day, Patterson, Api, Dickinson, Myler, T'vaki, Foden could all leave

Mikey is the one I would worry about - with Dylan extending earlier this year.. he's got to want to press on and is still only 26 so coming into the golden years the next 5 seasons or so

Luther signed early 2017 as did Stephenson and Hutchinson - however young lads and those towards the other end of the scale will usually be 1 year deals - so we could see a big clear out of those guys too

James Craig and the rest of the academy extended early 2017

Wood, Harrison and Hill all signed in 2016 - you'd guess on 2 years (maybe 3)

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 09:06
Thank you for the info Tub

 
St tub
Re: Season defining?
St tub (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 09:36
The internet has a second purpose after all Wolfy (Sm100)

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 09:45
Yes, YouTubing videos of kiwi 10s.


Isnít a mass clear out indicative of failure..... we start all over again....

 
St tub
Re: Season defining?
St tub (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 11:33
tis the professional age - every club clears out a ton of guys every season

Our leavers in the last 5 seasons - 2013-4 to this (alone) are below
and we have far fewer moves than a lot of sides..

England Paul Doran-Jones to England Harlequins[44]
South Africa Brian Mujati to France Racing Metro[134]
Tonga Soane Tonga'uiha to France Racing Metro[134]
New Zealand Mark Sorenson to England Bristol Rugby[135]
Wales Rhys Oakley to England Plymouth Albion[136]
Wales Martin Roberts to England Bath Rugby[5]
England Ryan Lamb to England Leicester Tigers[30]
England Tom May to England London Welsh[137]
England Scott Armstrong to England Moseley
England Noah Cato to England Newcastle Falcons[27]
Russia Vasily Artemyev to Russia Krasny Yar Krasnoyarsk[166]
South Africa Gerrit-Jan van Velze to England Worcester Warriors[167]
England Danny Herriott to England Jersey[168]
England Ryan Glynn to England Jersey[169]
England Paul Diggin retired[170]
England Sam Harry released[171]
Samoa Fa'atoina Autagavaia to France USO Nevers[172]
England Ross McMillan to England Bristol Rugby[173]
Australia Salesi Ma'afu to France Toulon
United States Samu Manoa to France Toulon[178]
England Phil Dowson to England Worcester Warriors[179]
England Dominic Waldouck to England London Irish[180]
England Will Hooley to England Exeter Chiefs[181]
England Alex Day to England Cornish Pirates[182]
England Joel Hodgson to England Yorkshire Carnegie
Scotland Tom Ryder to England Yorkshire Carnegie[183]
United States Cam Dolan to Wales Cardiff Blues[184]
England Josh Skelcey to England Nottingham
England Tom Mercey released[185]
England Alex Corbisiero sabbatical (released)[161]
South Africa Matt Williams to England Worcester Warriors[162]
England Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi to England London Irish[163]
South Africa Patrick Howard to Wales Newport Gwent Dragons[164]
Samoa Kahn Fotuali'i to England Bath Rugby[165]
England Jon Fisher to England Bristol Rugby[166]
England Calum Clark to England Saracens[132]
England Ethan Waller to England Worcester Warriors[133]
Ireland J. J. Hanrahan to Ireland Munster[134]
England Lee Dickson to England Bedford Blues[135]
England Howard Packman to England Bedford Blues[29]
Wales Sion Bennett to Wales Cardiff Blues[136]
England Gareth Denman to England Gloucester[137]
England Sam Olver to England Worcester Warriors[138]
France Louis Picamoles to France Montpellier[139]
Samoa George Pisi to New Zealand North Harbour[140]
England Adam Parkins to England Derby[141]
Canada Jake Ilnicki to England Newcastle Falcons[142]
New Zealand James Wilson to England Bath[143]

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Season defining?
Neil-H (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 11:53
Wolf take into account with the likes of Biggar/North/Hartley/Lawes that these guys are Lions they are high profile names in the game.

Its now a business, we need to attract sponsorship, corporate deals, more season ticket holders, sell shirts etc.. you need these names in your squad for financial reasons, rightly or wrongly, it is probably needed.

I see Biggar deal as the above, yes he is class player, he will improve the team and we could got better value elsewhere, but they wouldn't meet the other corporate side of business to get that added income that Biggar should bring in.

Its a fine balance and glad it not me making the decisions LOL

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 13:15
I donít see attendances or sponsorship or any revenue changing with a few UK internationals in the team.

And Iíd be amazed if Jim, who has control over recruitment, does so to increase revenue. He recruits players he thinks will help him be successful.


Happy for someone to show data suggesting otherwise

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Season defining?
Neil-H (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 13:29
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
I donít see attendances or sponsorship or any revenue changing with a few UK internationals in the team.
And Iíd be amazed if Jim, who has control over recruitment, does so to increase revenue. He recruits players he thinks will help him be successful.


Happy for someone to show data suggesting otherwise

When we signed Carlos, it was said by the board at the time, we sign players like him to put bums on seats and attract sponsorship, nothings changed.

 
tedge
Re: Season defining?
tedge (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 14:18
Quote:
St tub
tis the professional age - every club clears out a ton of guys every season
Our leavers in the last 5 seasons - 2013-4 to this (alone) are below
and we have far fewer moves than a lot of sides..

England Paul Doran-Jones to England Harlequins[44]
South Africa Brian Mujati to France Racing Metro[134]
Tonga Soane Tonga'uiha to France Racing Metro[134]
New Zealand Mark Sorenson to England Bristol Rugby[135]
Wales Rhys Oakley to England Plymouth Albion[136]
Wales Martin Roberts to England Bath Rugby[5]
England Ryan Lamb to England Leicester Tigers[30]
England Tom May to England London Welsh[137]
England Scott Armstrong to England Moseley
England Noah Cato to England Newcastle Falcons[27]
Russia Vasily Artemyev to Russia Krasny Yar Krasnoyarsk[166]
South Africa Gerrit-Jan van Velze to England Worcester Warriors[167]
England Danny Herriott to England Jersey[168]
England Ryan Glynn to England Jersey[169]
England Paul Diggin retired[170]
England Sam Harry released[171]
Samoa Fa'atoina Autagavaia to France USO Nevers[172]
England Ross McMillan to England Bristol Rugby[173]
Australia Salesi Ma'afu to France Toulon
United States Samu Manoa to France Toulon[178]
England Phil Dowson to England Worcester Warriors[179]
England Dominic Waldouck to England London Irish[180]
England Will Hooley to England Exeter Chiefs[181]
England Alex Day to England Cornish Pirates[182]
England Joel Hodgson to England Yorkshire Carnegie
Scotland Tom Ryder to England Yorkshire Carnegie[183]
United States Cam Dolan to Wales Cardiff Blues[184]
England Josh Skelcey to England Nottingham
England Tom Mercey released[185]
England Alex Corbisiero sabbatical (released)[161]
South Africa Matt Williams to England Worcester Warriors[162]
England Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi to England London Irish[163]
South Africa Patrick Howard to Wales Newport Gwent Dragons[164]
Samoa Kahn Fotuali'i to England Bath Rugby[165]
England Jon Fisher to England Bristol Rugby[166]
England Calum Clark to England Saracens[132]
England Ethan Waller to England Worcester Warriors[133]
Ireland J. J. Hanrahan to Ireland Munster[134]
England Lee Dickson to England Bedford Blues[135]
England Howard Packman to England Bedford Blues[29]
Wales Sion Bennett to Wales Cardiff Blues[136]
England Gareth Denman to England Gloucester[137]
England Sam Olver to England Worcester Warriors[138]
France Louis Picamoles to France Montpellier[139]
Samoa George Pisi to New Zealand North Harbour[140]
England Adam Parkins to England Derby[141]
Canada Jake Ilnicki to England Newcastle Falcons[142]
New Zealand James Wilson to England Bath[143]


Plus Glen Dickson Kiwi who I think went to Cardiff but now coaches at Weston Super-Mare plus a Kiwi lock who came with him from Otago, plus a Georgian prop for a spell. None of them made the grade here.

 
ch saint
Re: Season defining?
ch saint (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 18:12
Thats a really interesting list St Tub, anyone know how JJ is playing back in Ireland?

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 18:52
Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
I donít see attendances or sponsorship or any revenue changing with a few UK internationals in the team.
And Iíd be amazed if Jim, who has control over recruitment, does so to increase revenue. He recruits players he thinks will help him be successful.


Happy for someone to show data suggesting otherwise

When we signed Carlos, it was said by the board at the time, we sign players like him to put bums on seats and attract sponsorship, nothings changed.



Aha good boy - I knew when that bait was chucked out youíd come back with Carlos !


That was 12-13 years ago? At that time Keith was very active at the club and yeah Iím sure he basically he recruited him (of course v bad call, Shane Drahm was good and we then had no kicker). I digress.

But as far as Iím aware, currently Jim has and I think has always had, complete control over the rugby side of the club including recruitment ?


Given that, I canít see any recruitment based on anything other than winning rugby matches. The board leave them to it.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 18:56
Quote:
St tub
tis the professional age - every club clears out a ton of guys every season
Our leavers in the last 5 seasons - 2013-4 to this (alone) are below
and we have far fewer moves than a lot of sides..

England Paul Doran-Jones to England Harlequins[44]
South Africa Brian Mujati to France Racing Metro[134]
Tonga Soane Tonga'uiha to France Racing Metro[134]
New Zealand Mark Sorenson to England Bristol Rugby[135]
Wales Rhys Oakley to England Plymouth Albion[136]
Wales Martin Roberts to England Bath Rugby[5]
England Ryan Lamb to England Leicester Tigers[30]
England Tom May to England London Welsh[137]
England Scott Armstrong to England Moseley
England Noah Cato to England Newcastle Falcons[27]
Russia Vasily Artemyev to Russia Krasny Yar Krasnoyarsk[166]
South Africa Gerrit-Jan van Velze to England Worcester Warriors[167]
England Danny Herriott to England Jersey[168]
England Ryan Glynn to England Jersey[169]
England Paul Diggin retired[170]
England Sam Harry released[171]
Samoa Fa'atoina Autagavaia to France USO Nevers[172]
England Ross McMillan to England Bristol Rugby[173]
Australia Salesi Ma'afu to France Toulon
United States Samu Manoa to France Toulon[178]
England Phil Dowson to England Worcester Warriors[179]
England Dominic Waldouck to England London Irish[180]
England Will Hooley to England Exeter Chiefs[181]
England Alex Day to England Cornish Pirates[182]
England Joel Hodgson to England Yorkshire Carnegie
Scotland Tom Ryder to England Yorkshire Carnegie[183]
United States Cam Dolan to Wales Cardiff Blues[184]
England Josh Skelcey to England Nottingham
England Tom Mercey released[185]
England Alex Corbisiero sabbatical (released)[161]
South Africa Matt Williams to England Worcester Warriors[162]
England Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi to England London Irish[163]
South Africa Patrick Howard to Wales Newport Gwent Dragons[164]
Samoa Kahn Fotuali'i to England Bath Rugby[165]
England Jon Fisher to England Bristol Rugby[166]
England Calum Clark to England Saracens[132]
England Ethan Waller to England Worcester Warriors[133]
Ireland J. J. Hanrahan to Ireland Munster[134]
England Lee Dickson to England Bedford Blues[135]
England Howard Packman to England Bedford Blues[29]
Wales Sion Bennett to Wales Cardiff Blues[136]
England Gareth Denman to England Gloucester[137]
England Sam Olver to England Worcester Warriors[138]
France Louis Picamoles to France Montpellier[139]
Samoa George Pisi to New Zealand North Harbour[140]
England Adam Parkins to England Derby[141]
Canada Jake Ilnicki to England Newcastle Falcons[142]
New Zealand James Wilson to England Bath[143]



Fascinating list but a little misleading. A number of those didnít play first team rugby regularly or at all. Regardless itís a lot....


My assertion was that a big overhaul would be an admittance of failure of the current crop with some retirements etc. I havenít seen Exeter or Saracens overhaul a complete squad (or half of one in a season or 2, which is the suggestion).

 
fair_weather_fan
Re: Season defining?
fair_weather_fan (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 21:55
Round and round we go.

When or if, we put out our best available XV we will have a better idea where we stand. Our presumed no 1 backline have not all played together yet and didnt do a preseason together. Our replacement for LP arrives after xmas.

Ok this goes back to previous seasons but doesnt make it any less true.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Season defining?
Neil-H (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 21:55
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
I donít see attendances or sponsorship or any revenue changing with a few UK internationals in the team.
And Iíd be amazed if Jim, who has control over recruitment, does so to increase revenue. He recruits players he thinks will help him be successful.


Happy for someone to show data suggesting otherwise

When we signed Carlos, it was said by the board at the time, we sign players like him to put bums on seats and attract sponsorship, nothings changed.



Aha good boy - I knew when that bait was chucked out youíd come back with Carlos !


That was 12-13 years ago? At that time Keith was very active at the club and yeah Iím sure he basically he recruited him (of course v bad call, Shane Drahm was good and we then had no kicker). I digress.

But as far as Iím aware, currently Jim has and I think has always had, complete control over the rugby side of the club including recruitment ?


Given that, I canít see any recruitment based on anything other than winning rugby matches. The board leave them to it.

Donít patronise me please

The same was said of George North when he was signed, these are the kind of player we need to attract and sign.

Jim sits on the board to doesnt he, so knows the boards requirements to? And as you have pointed out on many occasion, their is much better value elsewhere, so the your statement that you canít see any recruitment based on anything other than winning rugby matches could be incorrect, if itís also based on what I have suggested?

And like you I donít know, it has been as I sugg3sted in last, so why not still if we could have got better value as u state?

Neither of us know, itís all subjective

 
Dick Dastardly
Re: Season defining?
Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 22:04
The point made about Mitchell is an interesting one and highlights the difficulty in planning recruitment - Hopefully his undoubted talent will be realised with us but he clearly needs the opportunity to play at Premiership level.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Season defining?
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
16 November, 2017 00:22
Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
I donít see attendances or sponsorship or any revenue changing with a few UK internationals in the team.
And Iíd be amazed if Jim, who has control over recruitment, does so to increase revenue. He recruits players he thinks will help him be successful.


Happy for someone to show data suggesting otherwise

When we signed Carlos, it was said by the board at the time, we sign players like him to put bums on seats and attract sponsorship, nothings changed.


Aha good boy - I knew when that bait was chucked out youíd come back with Carlos !


That was 12-13 years ago? At that time Keith was very active at the club and yeah Iím sure he basically he recruited him (of course v bad call, Shane Drahm was good and we then had no kicker). I digress.

But as far as Iím aware, currently Jim has and I think has always had, complete control over the rugby side of the club including recruitment ?


Given that, I canít see any recruitment based on anything other than winning rugby matches. The board leave them to it.

Donít patronise me please

The same was said of George North when he was signed, these are the kind of player we need to attract and sign.

Jim sits on the board to doesnt he, so knows the boards requirements to? And as you have pointed out on many occasion, their is much better value elsewhere, so the your statement that you canít see any recruitment based on anything other than winning rugby matches could be incorrect, if itís also based on what I have suggested?

And like you I donít know, it has been as I sugg3sted in last, so why not still if we could have got better value as u state?

Neither of us know, itís all subjective



Was joking not being patronising. Letís get someone to ask at the next STH forum. I think we will find its accurate.

ďthe sort of player we need to be signingĒ just describes top players not ďthe sort of players that sell ticketsĒ


Anyway I think thatís false. Tickets sell when we are playing good rugby and winning matches. Not whether some flashy player is in the side or not.

 
tboullem
Re: Season defining?
Mobbs (IP Logged)
17 November, 2017 07:22
Damn it, I am agreeing with Wolfie again ! Its good rugby and winning that increases attendances not star names.

 
St tub
Re: Season defining?
St tub (IP Logged)
17 November, 2017 09:22
Tis Friday - here's the equivalent list for Sarries..

Italy Carlos Nieto retired[153]
South Africa John Smit retired[154]
England Andy Saull to England Newcastle Falcons[118]
Fiji Kameli Ratuvou to Italy Zebre[27]
New Zealand Joe Maddock retired[155]
England Steve Borthwick retired[191]
England Nick Auterac to England Bath Rugby[192]
England Matt Stevens to South Africa Sharks[193]
England Max Crumpton to England Bristol Rugby[194]
England James Short to England London Irish[105]
South Africa Nick Fenton-Wells to England Bedford Blues[195]
England Tom Jubb to England Plymouth Albion[196]
England Joel Tomkins to England Wigan Warriors[197]
Fiji Michael Tagicakibau to Wales Scarlets[198]
England Mouritz Botha to South Africa Sharks[200]
New Zealand Jack Wilson to South Africa Sharks[201]
Ireland Eoin Sheriff to England London Irish[207]
England David Strettle to France Clermont Auvergne[208]
Samoa James Johnston to England Wasps[209]
South Africa Nic de Jager to South Africa Blue Bulls[211]
South Africa Ernst Joubert retired [212]
England Charlie Hodgson retired[192]
Wales Rhys Gill to Wales Cardiff Blues[193]
Romania Catalin Fercu to Romania Timișoara Saracens[194]
Australia Kieran Longbottom to England Sale Sharks[195]
Australia Dave Porecki to England London Irish[196]
Namibia Jacques Burger retired[197]
England Aaron Morris to England Harlequins[198]
United States Hayden Smith to England Esher[199]
United States Thretton Palamo to England Bristol Rugby[200]
England Biyi Alo to England Worcester Warriors[201]
England Ben Ransom to England London Irish[202]
South Africa Alistair Hargreaves retired[203]
England Chris Ashton to France Toulon[174]
England George Perkins to England Bristol[175]
Scotland Kelly Brown retired[176]
South Africa Jared Saunders to England Jersey Reds[177]
South Africa Neil de Kock retired[178]
Scotland Jim Hamilton retired[179]
Samoa Brian Tuilagi to France Dax[180]
Italy Samuela Vunisa to Scotland Glasgow Warriors[181]
South Africa Petrus du Plessis to England London Irish[95]
England Tim Streather retired[182]
England Will Fraser retired[183]
Ireland Mark Flanagan to Ireland Munster (three-month loan)[184]
Samoa Fa'atiga Lemalu to Japan Munakata Sanix Blues[185]

 
St tub
Re: Season defining?
St tub (IP Logged)
17 November, 2017 09:28
and the chiefs..

England Chris Budgen retired[24]
England Simon Alcott retired[24]
England Neil Clark to France Oyonnax [25]
England Aly Muldowney to Ireland Connacht[26]
England Richard Baxter retired[24]
England Kevin Barrett retired[24]
Samoa Junior Poluleuligaga to New Zealand Auckland[27]
Australia Myles Dorrian to England London Irish[28]
Argentina Ignacio Mieres to England Worcester Warriors[29]
Samoa Josh Tatupu to France US Carcassonne[27]
Argentina Gonzalo Camacho to England Leicester Tigers[30]
England Mark Foster to England Jersey[31]
France Nic Sestaret released[24]
Fiji Watisoni Votu to France USA Perpignan[32]
New Zealand Hoani Tui to France Lyon[24]
Wales Craig Mitchell to Wales Cardiff Blues[25]
New Zealand Romana Graham to France La Rochelle[26]
New Zealand Jason Shoemark to New Zealand Hawke's Bay Magpies[27]
England Chris Whitehead retired[28]
England Tom Cowan-Dickie to England Plymouth Albion[29]
England James Hanks retired[30]
England Lloyd Fairbrother to Wales Newport Gwent Dragons[31]
England Luke Arscott to England Bath Rugby[32]
England James Phillips to England London Scottish[33]
Wales Tom James to Wales Cardiff Blues[29]
England Greg Bateman to England Leicester Tigers[30]
Australia Dean Mumm to Australia NSW Waratahs[31]
England Kieran Davies to England Nottingham[32]
Tonga Fetu'u Vainikolo to France Oyonnax[33]
England Joel Conlon to England Saracens[34]
Wales Ceri Sweeney to Wales Pontypridd RFC[35]
England James Scaysbrook retired[36]
England Will Carrick-Smith to England London Scottish[37]
Wales Adam Hughes to Wales Newport Gwent Dragons[59]
England Josh Jones to England Salford Red Devils[60]
England Alex Brown to France USA Perpignan[61]
England Brett Sturgess to England Ampthill[62]
Ireland Jerry Sexton to England London Irish[63]
Scotland Byron McGuigan to England Sale Sharks[64]
Ireland Lewis Stevenson to Ireland Connacht[65]
Namibia Chrysander Botha to Namibia Welwitschias[66]
England Dave Lewis to England Harlequins[27]
England Damian Welch to Wales Cardiff Blues[28]
England Will Hooley to England Bedford Blues[29]
England Haydn Thomas retired[30]
England Geoff Parling to Japan Munakata Sanix Blues/Australia Melbourne Rebels[31]
England Tom Johnson retired[32]
Fiji Nikola Matawalu to Scotland Glasgow Warriors[33]

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Season defining?
Stockers (IP Logged)
17 November, 2017 10:04
Quote:
St tub
and the chiefs..
England Chris Budgen retired[24]

Chris Budgen?

Retired!! ?



Noooooooooooooooooo...........

 
Deesaint
Re: Season defining?
Deesaint (IP Logged)
17 November, 2017 14:34
Quote:
Stockers
Quote:
St tub
and the chiefs..
England Chris Budgen retired[24]

Chris Budgen?

Retired!! ?



Noooooooooooooooooo...........


Comes to everyone unfortunately

Chris now has a part time job as a human tug; pulling warships into dock at Portsmouth harbour :-)


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