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LeicesterSaint
Defence
LeicesterSaint (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 18:07
Just read this in the Telegraph from their team of the weekend.....

11. Sinoti Sinoti
Newcastle Falcons
Tim Visser stole in to snatch the winner against Saracens, while Jonah Holmes grabbed a double for Leicester Tigers at the Ricoh Arena and appears to be a fine signing. Not for the first time, though, superb Samoa international Sinoti inspired Newcastle to an important away win at Franklin's Gardens. He shrugged off nine Northampton tackles over the 80 minutes.[u][/u]

I've only seen the brief highlights eg the tries and half those tackles missed seemed to be for one try! Can those that saw the whole game live or otherwise shed more light on why/how we're missing so many tackles? In earlier games we didn't seem to have enough linespeed to make dominant tackles - that allowed the opposition to gain momentum which means more and more tackles are on the back foot until the get missed. More of the same on Friday?

On the plus side (credit where due and all that) Mallinder was the 15 beating Brown and Goode who went head to head, they seem to agree its his best position for using his pace and boot as well as coming into the line as a second playmaker.

 
Nath-coys
Re: Defence
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 18:40
The amount of tackles we miss is staggering.

I said before the match I feared for our Wingers and I know that they didn't miss all the tackles but you just have to compare the two sets of wingers and see that it was a massive miss match.

They also ruthlessly exposed Grayson and I really feel for the lad. But he shouldn't of been in that situation in the first place. Bags of talent, but not ready for the brutality of the Prem yet.

On the Harry note, has been great to see him do well at FB. Loads of room to improve as well which is exciting.

 
Walks11
Re: Defence
Walks11 (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 19:01
Heís 19 at what point do we throw him in? By all accounts he did pretty well the week before.

He should have got more protection from the back row and 12, after all it was a pretty much one dimensional plan of attack. Iíd have stood Harrison right next to him so that he took the hit rather than Grayson

 
SaintsMan87
Re: Defence
SaintsMan87 (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 19:06
Once again we didnít have line speed really so resorted to drifting early giving up lots of meters.

The other worry for me is fitness, our back 5 spent far too much time on the wings when weíre getting hammered through the middle. They need to be working harder to be in the right place and have some form of competition at the breakdown.

Sadly they werenít just out wide in defence, also in attack meaning we conceded so many easy turnovers. It was frustrating to watch.

 
rugbymel
Re: Defence
rugbymel (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 19:15
I feel for Grayson too. Hardly used in the AW games and then used as a starter against Newcastle with Francis on the bench. I just donít understand the logic.

 
Nath-coys
Re: Defence
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 19:53
Quote:
Walks11
Heís 19 at what point do we throw him in? By all accounts he did pretty well the week before.
He should have got more protection from the back row and 12, after all it was a pretty much one dimensional plan of attack. Iíd have stood Harrison right next to him so that he took the hit rather than Grayson


I would start him when he is fully ready too be a Prem 10.
He is talented but not a Prem 10 yet, simple as that.
And we had a Super rugby 10 on the bench, it is ludicrous.

Now what I say now is not a dig or writing him off or anything at all...

But I watched a lot of him in local club rugby 2 years ago, as my brother played against him regularly.
And even then my brothers team said, run at him and run at him hard and there is a lot of yards too be made there.

Players all fully develop and are ready at different ages.
Marcus smith for example has taken to the Prem straight away.
Others might need too wait till they are 22/23.

 
herbie85
Re: Defence
herbie85 (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 20:00
Quote:
Nath-coys
Quote:
Walks11
Heís 19 at what point do we throw him in? By all accounts he did pretty well the week before.
He should have got more protection from the back row and 12, after all it was a pretty much one dimensional plan of attack. Iíd have stood Harrison right next to him so that he took the hit rather than Grayson


I would start him when he is fully ready too be a Prem 10.
He is talented but not a Prem 10 yet, simple as that.
And we had a Super rugby 10 on the bench, it is ludicrous.

Now what I say now is not a dig or writing him off or anything at all...

But I watched a lot of him in local club rugby 2 years ago, as my brother played against him regularly.
And even then my brothers team said, run at him and run at him hard and there is a lot of yards too be made there.

Players all fully develop and are ready at different ages.
Marcus smith for example has taken to the Prem straight away.
Others might need too wait till they are 22/23.

In his defence, run at most 10's hard with a bit of size and you will get gains. There are always exceptions, Jonny w's D was pretty good, but in general outside half's not known for their defensive abilities. As posters have pointed out, support required from other positions and not allow opponents big units to get a decent run up/quick ball to crash it into or through him.

 
SaintSurrey
Re: Defence
SaintSurrey (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 20:09
Quinnís look after Marcus Watson who is also very young and very small

Barrel and Horne are a good Centre combo
Stephenson and Hutch are a good Centre combo
Foden canít be the best winger we have?

Our back row was outstanding with Courtney at 6 and Gibson at 7. I just donít understand the logic at saints

 
Nath-coys
Re: Defence
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 20:12
Agreed Herbie.

My point being the timescale....

If this was happening a couple of years ago in local club rugby, is he really ready to be a starting 10 in the Prem.

There is no where to hide on a rugby pitch anymore, it is so fast and the guys so big and athletic if you show any weakness it will be exploited.

He will be a top player, and hopefully he will do it wearing the GB&G!
But let's develop him sensibly and not ruin him while he is young!!!!

 
acl saint
Re: Defence
acl saint (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 20:22
Our fitness levels were always outstanding under Johnson but when Callum went to Sarries and his first interview mention how his fitness was way below par also tells you the conditioning/fitness coach isnít getting it right also!!!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Defence
Stockers (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 20:39
Sitting in my new perch in the Barwell stand it was obvious (when the hobby beer drinkers sat down and didn't spoil the view) that Sinoti and Matavesi were primed to run down the 10 12 channel all night when they had the ball and those are two big units who get up to speed quickly. Did our coaches not think that a tyro 10 and injury prone 12 were not best placed to defend against that combination?

Dearie me.......

 
Sadsaint
Re: Defence
Sadsaint (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 21:30
Note you mention the hobby drinkers. Itís a terrible consequence of all day, beer at your seat policy which brings in the revenue, but does spoil the enjoyment of the match for some. My worst experience was trying to watch a Tigers Derby in the south stand, while a bunch of supporters went back and forth to the bar. When pointing out that there was a match in progress, I was offered a trip behind the stand for a punch up. Same Ďsupporterí disappeared after 30 minutes and did not return until the final whistle. My e-mail mentioning this spoiled evening did not meet with any great sympathy.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Defence
Stockers (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 21:57
Indeed Sadsaint (cheer up matewinking smiley) it's a problem. When I first started supporting Saints in the late 1980'S the bar shut 15 minutes before kick off and re-opened at no side. People sat down, watched the game, and got up afterwards to go for a beer or go home.

But hey, that wouldn't be very good for maximising the return from the punters would it?!

Anyway, were in "thread drift" now so I'd better not moan.

 
fishface
Re: Defence
fishface (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 21:58
Sinoti and Matavesi will severely test most defenders.
They are like a pair of turbo charged Jason Robinsons.
Great to watch - pity they were on the other side !

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Defence
Stockers (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 22:03
Quote:
fishface
Sinoti and Matavesi will severely test most defenders.
They are like a pair of turbo charged Jason Robinsons.
Great to watch - pity they were on the other side !

I was on safari recently in SA and watched two male rhinos having a square go. Reminded me of that when I saw those two Falcons thundering towards the Saints line!

 
Eif Jones
Re: Defence
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 01:27
Ask any top no 10 if they approve of handing over the kicking duties to the no 15 they would be horrified. So 15 is a better kicker, so what!! Its part of the whole game of a 10 who is used to taking the responsibility and then feels unwanted when he doesn't, its part of game management. Its not an excuse for Grayson's failure but I'm sure he would have felt more comfortable if he rather than the boss's son was taking the kicks.

It happened to Stephen Jones on the Lions tour in NZ and you could see and feel his disappointment from the stand. He was probably saying to himself, why am I here?

 
Christoff
Re: Defence
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 07:05
There's been a lot of talk regarding Ford and Farrell playing 10 and 12 for England.....both 10's. Farrell, quite rightly kicks off the tee. Ford doesn't appear to have a problem with it. Good job as Farrell is excellent from the tee and Ford is average, at best. It's what's best for the team.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Defence
Matthew (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 09:10
Halfpenny/Biggar?



ACTUAL TRAINING FOOTAGE FROM
BEHIND THE SCENES AT SARACENS:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37800000/Scrooge-McDuck-gif-mickey-and-friends-37815657-245-188.gif

 
rugbymel
Re: Defence
rugbymel (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 09:42
Cipriani/Gopperth?

 
Saint Jericho
Re: Defence
Saint Jericho (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 10:09
Back to the original point, for me a big part of it is mindset. Players for whatever reason lack the intensity in defence of other teams. Compare it to the intensity and mindset of teams with a 'feel good factor', like Gloucester at the moment and it's night and day. Gloucester players seem to totally buy into what the coaches are telling them and have the mindset to perform out of their skin for them. This doesn't appear to be the case at Saints. Too many players missing basic one on one tackles. Mindset, intensity, wanting to put your body on the line for the coaches and team mates, all seem to be lacking.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Defence
shendy (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 12:50
Quote:
Eif Jones
Ask any top no 10 if they approve of handing over the kicking duties to the no 15 they would be horrified. So 15 is a better kicker, so what!! Its part of the whole game of a 10 who is used to taking the responsibility and then feels unwanted when he doesn't, its part of game management. Its not an excuse for Grayson's failure but I'm sure he would have felt more comfortable if he rather than the boss's son was taking the kicks.
It happened to Stephen Jones on the Lions tour in NZ and you could see and feel his disappointment from the stand. He was probably saying to himself, why am I here?

I'm sorry Eif, but I think that's complete tosh.
Paul Thorburn? John Eales?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Defence
Matthew (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 15:57
Newcastle scrum half rather than Joel Hodgson kicked their winning conversion on Friday.



ACTUAL TRAINING FOOTAGE FROM
BEHIND THE SCENES AT SARACENS:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37800000/Scrooge-McDuck-gif-mickey-and-friends-37815657-245-188.gif

 
Saint Stokey
Re: Defence
Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 16:11
despite never having player 10 or 15, I can be pretty certain that there is a different technique required for kicking from hand, drop kicking and kicking from a tee.

Didn't Jordie Barrett kick for the All Blacks quite recently whilst Beauden Barrett was still on the pitch? Does that mean that Beauden's 'Best Player in World Rugby' title should be withdrawn?

 
Casual Saint
Re: Defence
Casual Saint (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 16:17
The expectation for the 10 to kick is a relatively new fashion. The french have a long tradition of kicking scrum halfs, the 80s and 90s saw a raft of kicking fullbacks. Indeed for a while it appeared to be England's policy to select the full back on their place kicking ability as opposed to their defensive or counter attacking skills.



Once a scrum half .... always a scrum half

 
Dumpling
Re: Defence
06 December, 2017 22:26
Quote:
Casual Saint
The expectation for the 10 to kick is a relatively new fashion. The french have a long tradition of kicking scrum halfs, the 80s and 90s saw a raft of kicking fullbacks. Indeed for a while it appeared to be England's policy to select the full back on their place kicking ability as opposed to their defensive or counter attacking skills.

Yes, without Bob Hiller England would have had a pretty lean time in the early 70s!

 
LeicesterSaint
Re: Defence
LeicesterSaint (IP Logged)
07 December, 2017 13:30
As Saints fan we can be forgiven for wanting to forget about Nadolo but I'm pretty sure he kicks once he's done brushing off 18 stone professional rugby players like U11's on the way to the try line!


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