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MESSAGES->author
The Psychology of military incompetence
OldPete (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 12:28
this is the title of a famous book by Norman F Dixon and I would like to recommend it to our Chairman and the board. Written several years ago by a Professor Psychology and former Royal Engineer its basic thesis is that hierarchies military or otherwise stultify after success and place men fill dead men's shoes. conservative thinking dominates and when the action starts they are the wrong people to take charge or go forward.
ee
Another way of looking at it is the Maginot line mentality in which you prepare to fight the next war based on what won the last one. Inevitably as the French high command found out their opponents had moved on and with new methods beat them.

Dixon suggests that w hen the brown stuff hits the fan what you need are the mavericks the awkward types who never got promoted in peace time.

I don't know if any of this will chime with others in our current situation but it its worth thinking about.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 13:24
Very good analogy.....


With regards supporters I like to refer to our Iraqi friend:-


Denial

 
Longers
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
Longers (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 15:32
It's a familiar line of thought in industry - just look at the successful Vs the unsuccessful companies over time.

And as one very effective Director once said to me - cut swift, cut deep. He did, and it usually worked.

And it is also the reason that I try to avoid specific criticism of games/players, but argue more over the effects/outcomes in a managerial sense.

One will still get the odd -what do you know about playing/coaching at this level comment - but looked at in purely management terms, Jim has failed in over 60% of his targets for the past 2-3 years. What manager survives that history at an appraisal without some harsh words and maybe a warning to go with it (SMART of course).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2017 15:36 by Longers.

 
ch saint
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
ch saint (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 15:37
Thanks OP I'm going to get a copy its highly reviewed.

Its difficult at the club, the board is so big it will be hard to make any decisive moves, particularly with the share holder structure. The size of the board will inevitably drive it towards the position you describe OP.

 
tedge
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
tedge (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 15:53
It should also be remembered that the board consists of amateurs - they are not dependent on it for a living - and as discussed elsewhere there is always an (unintentional) elephant in the room who might or might not share their views and who has the power to veto any decisions.

 
Deesaint
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
Deesaint (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 16:24
Quote:
tedge
It should also be remembered that the board consists of amateurs - they are not dependent on it for a living - and as discussed elsewhere there is always an (unintentional) elephant in the room who might or might not share their views and who has the power to veto any decisions.

Not quite amateurs Tedge.
[www.northamptonsaints.co.uk]

Accounts show some half a million paid to Directors.

Towards the end of the accounts there is a deceleration of other amounts paid to Director's other interests; another half a million.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 17:44
There are FTSE companies with less directors, and this a small family business. Almost amusing...


Freudian sentence from Jim in the reports and accounts last year

“As always, a massive thank you to the board of directors as well as the Saints’ supporters, sponsors and shareholders for all of your continued backing of the team”


Supporters would always be first in my book. Without them there is no club, no revenue, no jobs, no board.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2017 17:50 by HungryLikeTheWolf.

 
tedge
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
tedge (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 17:49
Quote:
Deesaint
Quote:
tedge
It should also be remembered that the board consists of amateurs - they are not dependent on it for a living - and as discussed elsewhere there is always an (unintentional) elephant in the room who might or might not share their views and who has the power to veto any decisions.

Not quite amateurs Tedge.
[www.northamptonsaints.co.uk]

Accounts show some half a million paid to Directors.

Towards the end of the accounts there is a deceleration of other amounts paid to Director's other interests; another half a million.

Nevertheless I believe there are at most only two paid directors - the CEO and possibly the Finance Director. None of the others, including the President, Chairman, Deputy Chairman and six other directors, receives a salary

 
ch saint
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
ch saint (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 18:49
The directors are not amateurs, particularly in their field of experience. You have to say they have done a great job with the companies finances. One of the strongest balance sheets in the country, not much debt, great ground.
It is when we turn to rugby that we are somewhat lacking, bit like Dudley Moore as the one legged applicant for the role of Tarzan. Great body but deficient in the leg department as Peter Cook observed.

Its not easy for a sporting club to get the balance between peripheral issues and the main reason for the club existing. The Saints have a policy of the board doing everything except rugby. The rugby is totally delegated to the coaches or DOR. It makes everything to do with appointments rather binary, your in or you are out. Same for all clubs as far as I can see.

 
tedge
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
tedge (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 18:57
But the DoR and coaches are still employees of the company and are appointed by the Chairman with the approval of the board, so it the board cannot abdicate responsibility just because they aren't all experts on rugby. It's all nice and cosy when things are going well but when they aren't...

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 10:23
A really interesting analogy.

Rob Baxter really impressed me in the ability to innovate and embrace new tactics to reflect how the laws changed.

He was able to adapt his gameplan from the forward orientated game plan that won promotion and kept them in the Premiership in their first couple of years to a highly attacking approach. Exeter have the record for consecutive games with try bonus points scored.

Coaches like Cockerill and Jim are more old school and have been less successful in adapting. Whereas Dean Richards has done wonders to Falcons attacking play helped by some top notch signings.

So leopards can change their spots. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for Jim.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 11:11
His loyalty to Dorian has cost him...

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 12:56
Quote:
SaintMaul
A really interesting analogy.
Rob Baxter really impressed me in the ability to innovate and embrace new tactics to reflect how the laws changed.

He was able to adapt his gameplan from the forward orientated game plan that won promotion and kept them in the Premiership in their first couple of years to a highly attacking approach. Exeter have the record for consecutive games with try bonus points scored.

Coaches like Cockerill and Jim are more old school and have been less successful in adapting. Whereas Dean Richards has done wonders to Falcons attacking play helped by some top notch signings.

So leopards can change their spots. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for Jim.


Interesting that you should mention Dean Richards, Newcastle were going nowhere with an old fashioned coach like John Wells, Deano removed him and put Dave Walder in as head coach and their game has been transformed. Jim has to look carefully at how this has worked.

He won't.
We have the players.

 
Dick Dastardly
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 13:17
The military analogy is interesting but as virtually all "great" military leaders were autocrats (and possibly like many other highly successful folks pyschopaths) - it perhaps does not give us a model to follow. We appear to have a double act where perhaps loyalty is (or at least has been) essential to the formula. This relationship does not seem to exist in the same way in any of the other Premiership clubs and it would be instructive to know how for example the Exeter triumvirate of Baxter, Hepher and Hunter operate. One thing that has struck me is that Hepher is designated Head Coach.

 
tedge
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
tedge (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 13:37
Quote:
Thrupp artist
The military analogy is interesting but as virtually all "great" military leaders were autocrats (and possibly like many other highly successful folks pyschopaths) - it perhaps does not give us a model to follow. We appear to have a double act where perhaps loyalty is (or at least has been) essential to the formula. This relationship does not seem to exist in the same way in any of the other Premiership clubs and it would be instructive to know how for example the Exeter triumvirate of Baxter, Hepher and Hunter operate. One thing that has struck me is that Hepher is designated Head Coach.

The term "head coach" can be subject to more than one definition; his responsibilities will of course always include basic coaching and might or might not include a specific aspect (eg attack) or it may just be an overall responsibility where the other coaches do the work. Critically it might or might not include having the final say on team selection and/or recruitment. I don't know but I suspect Rob Baxter as a DoR has the latter responsibilty, unlike the Humphreys/Ackermann set-up at Glaws.

 
Saintalex
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
Saintalex (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 20:29
What do people honestly think??? Think about this before posting please. If Dorian goes and we get a new forward coach? Will things improve? I’d Dorian the problem? Or is it both of them? Has Jim just been to loyal to his mate that inevitably will cost him his job? Or Dorian goes and things improve? I know what I think

 
tedge
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
tedge (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 20:50
Quote:
Saintalex
What do people honestly think??? Think about this before posting please. If Dorian goes and we get a new forward coach? Will things improve? I’d Dorian the problem? Or is it both of them? Has Jim just been to loyal to his mate that inevitably will cost him his job? Or Dorian goes and things improve? I know what I think

As usual we can only speculate. Do we know how much, if any influence DW has on coaching, team selection or recruitment in general or are his activities confined to forwards coaching ? If he remains "just" the pack coach he can only be held responsible for that role and if the pack is not as good as it once was is that down to recruitment being subject to availability and cost or is it because his ability to coach them has waned or not kept up with the way the game is played ? Might be a combination of both but he can't help it we are less competitive in the recruitment market. So would another forwards coach produce an improvement - who knows ?

Given the above we are still left with what happens outside the pack and how much our decline is the result of recruitment limitations or less hands on by the DoR or his failure to keep up with trends /

There are no easy solutions.

 
FatAlan
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
FatAlan (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 21:14
By my calculation we have to wait another 11 years before the next major trophy.

 
edwigg
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
edwigg (IP Logged)
07 December, 2017 04:49
Very good read and absolutely spot on.
The board lacks rugby knowledge and many have become too close to the DOR.
If you gave them a basic quiz about players available in Europe or asked them for their list of available world class coaches they would fail.
Add to this the lack of a five year plan and limited funds to take immediate action, equals a failing business.
The board should bite the bullet because any payoff would be cheaper than the long term damage the present rugby management team is inflicting on the business.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: The Psychology of military incompetence
OldPete (IP Logged)
07 December, 2017 06:58
Despite the understandable tendency to focus on our own preferred tangents - most posters seem to get it.

Its about conservatism and complacency at every level leading to decline - being left behind.

Incidentally the military analogy is not all embracing because for most Patton Types there was an Omar Bradley and while personalities may be relevant the essential issue is about adapting , refreshing and being self critical.

What worries me most is demonstrated by the players on the big screen stuff about the wonderful atmosphere at FG. Somehow last Friday that just jarred with reality. To me it is symptomatic of a lack of awareness about the issues facing the club.

It is also dangerously close to the manifestations of a parade ground army which will loose because it believes its own propaganda


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