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HungryLikeTheWolf
Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 16:39
I am fed up of being pushed around in the scrum every week. Forget that misleading stat about scrums won on own feed.

We get shunted around every week and it kills us. We concede penalty after penalty.

We have papier mache defence to the rolling maul.


Add to that the number of lineouts lost today. Change it right now.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 16:43
Well, all I will say is that if a Salesman does not sell a car for two years, then he would lose his job.

Our scrum is a penalty and yellow card machine and costs us games. We matched chiefs in open play today, so they just used set piece to win.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 16:46
I bet 90% of pens we concede are scrums and mauls.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 16:47
It is nothing short of embarrassing

 
Christoff
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 16:51
Wrong man gone.

 
Stevie Myler's right boot
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
23 December, 2017 16:56
Quote:
smitferbrainz
Wrong man gone.
But he didn’t have the stomach to do what was required - weak

 
Former Hollywood Saint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
23 December, 2017 16:59
It’s not great for sure, but Exeter were playing the ref today. They were wheeling it, pulling it down, pulling out of the engage and pushing early at different times and the ref did nothing.


FHS.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
OldPete (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:01
watching our scrum ( and to day the line out too ) was utterly depressing

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:02
Quote:
Former Hollywood Saint
It’s not great for sure, but Exeter were playing the ref today. They were wheeling it, pulling it down, pulling out of the engage and pushing early at different times and the ref did nothing.

FHS.

Every team does that, you should train for it. I did at midlands level rugby they better be!

 
Christoff
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:03
Quote:
Former Hollywood Saint
It’s not great for sure, but Exeter were playing the ref today. They were wheeling it, pulling it down, pulling out of the engage and pushing early at different times and the ref did nothing.

FHS.

That's called clever!

 
andysaint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
andysaint (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:05
Barwell needs to put his hand in his pocket, he can afford it and get rid. No DOR in their right mind would come here with West still around.

 
Christoff
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:14
Makes you wonder how him remaining has any justification at all. This was always going to happen. The elephant remains in the room and nothing will change until it leaves.

 
saintjock
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
saintjock (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:15
Lost it up front and mainly at set piece today. Better performance overall but a gulf in between us at set piece

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:16
Hollywood - it’s pretty much every week. And has been for 2 years. We have to score wonder tries in the backs to stay competitive.



Plus - I would not be trusting recruitment for next year......

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
GazzaTheDonkey (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:18
While I do not have enough knowledge to defend or otherwise comment on DW's ability I am very sceptical the world's greatest coach could make our pack out-scrummage Chiefs today. Look back at our pack glory days and all the great names we had in front row and now.... these guys are doing their best I'm sure but it just isn't enough. Buy-in two big-name props and a real no8 and this game would have looked a whole lot different.

 
HammerSaint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
HammerSaint (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:21
We have 4 props and two hookers all either at one time or other been in or the edge of the England team, added to that Lions and England players in the 2nd and back row, should the board ask themselves why the forwards are proably the worst at top level in Europe athe moment, there is a common denominator, (DW) but maybe the board are just as scared of him as the players?
Please Mr Barwell, give us the news we need this Christmas!

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:23
Maybe Dorian does not get a say in prop recruitment or maybe he does, I do not know.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:25
Quote:
GazzaTheDonkey
While I do not have enough knowledge to defend or otherwise comment on DW's ability I am very sceptical the world's greatest coach could make our pack out-scrummage Chiefs today. Look back at our pack glory days and all the great names we had in front row and now.... these guys are doing their best I'm sure but it just isn't enough. Buy-in two big-name props and a real no8 and this game would have looked a whole lot different.


He has recruited those players. When you have a ten year run as scrum officionado, all the players and the coaching is on your head.

No excuses.

 
fleetg
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
fleetg (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:26
Frankly (and it appears most agree) getting rid of Jim will have no impact until there is a complete overhaul at the club both with coaching and playing staff. I think this will be at least a 3 year project and will only be achieved by a head coach with some bottle to make the right decision on not renewing player contracts.

 
Stevie Myler's right boot
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
23 December, 2017 17:26
Signing big names is not the answer - how many big names have Exeter signed that we’re in their pack today?
Through excellent coaching they turn journeymen into solid players e.g. There was a stat on Thomas the Tank that he had scored 40 tries in about 70 Exeter Prem appearances - he had 13 in the 83 prem games prior.
While the boil/elephant is there nothing will change

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:27
Quote:
SaintsAsh
Maybe Dorian does not get a say in prop recruitment or maybe he does, I do not know.


He has full carte blanche

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:28
Quote:
Stevie Myler's right boot
Signing big names is not the answer - how many big names have Exeter signed that we’re in their pack today?
Through excellent coaching they turn journeymen into solid players e.g. There was a stat on Thomas the Tank that he had scored 40 tries in about 70 Exeter Prem appearances - he had 13 in the 83 prem games prior.
While the boil/elephant is there nothing will change


Spot on. Their front row are either academy lads or journeymen.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:28
Sacking West would leave us with just Dickens. Then when we don't play well in the next game aft3r West goes it will be calls to sack Dickens. Then sack the Board. Then sack the postboy if we can't find someone else to blame.

The priority for me is filling the interim DoR role and ideally finding a permanent DoR sooner rather than later. They should be free to keep, bring in or release who they want.

I'm hoping the CEO had a shortlist to contact immediately after pulling the trigger for Jim and an announcement is imminent.

 
Big daddy 3
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Big daddy 3 (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:31
I can’t believe DW is still having the cheek to stay and take a wage. We need to get rid ASAP

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:32
SaintMaul, the title says get a new one immediately......

Dickens will be fine as interim DoR. Don’t need to bring one in.... just get someone who can shore up our pack.

If we had won our lineouts and scrums today we would have been close to winning. That’s undeniable.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:32
You do not have to sack DW but you can bring in a scrum coach and say coach the scrum

 
Former Hollywood Saint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
23 December, 2017 17:32
I suppose the extension of what I was saying was the we need is to be more streetwise and play the ref as well. Paterson just said as much on Radio Noddy.

Saying we need to get rid of West is a given! We need to bolster the pack with some lumps too. Everything went to pot when JFR, Campo and API left the field. Or even more to pot than before anyway.


FHS

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
BerniesBestFriend (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 17:37
West should be long gone...we can hardly be any worse...come on get rid...

 
herbie85
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
herbie85 (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:10
Solely coaching or players too. We may not have the players to compete collectively

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:16
Dorian decided to replace Corbs and Salesi with youngsters. Granted they were then called but how about a gnarly solid prop or two who won’t go back at scrum time?

 
ch saint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
ch saint (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:22
Thats what Van W is supposed to be I guess.

 
Christoff
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:37
Quote:
SaintMaul
Sacking West would leave us with just Dickens. Then when we don't play well in the next game aft3r West goes it will be calls to sack Dickens. Then sack the Board. Then sack the postboy if we can't find someone else to blame.
The priority for me is filling the interim DoR role and ideally finding a permanent DoR sooner rather than later. They should be free to keep, bring in or release who they want.

I'm hoping the CEO had a shortlist to contact immediately after pulling the trigger for Jim and an announcement is imminent.

So leave it as it is then? Pass us a massive brick wall, the rest of us can just beat our heads against it. Yes the interim DoR will happen but this forwards coach will see us into the lower division before that individual influence things.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Connorman (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:41
West knows he has no future but is waiting for a pay-off.

 
tedge
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
tedge (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:43
Can anyone truly know that the reason our pack is not good is because the players are not and never will be good enough or that the coach is no good and a different one would make our forwards better ?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Connorman (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:47
Tedge, both questions lead to the same answer.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:49
He has recruited these players. If they aren’t good enough then he is not a good judge of talent either.


As connorman suggests.

 
tedge
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
tedge (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:52
Well, as far as we know he recruited them but in any event how do we know that they weren't the best available and affordable ?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
GazzaTheDonkey (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 18:59
but we had the same forwards coach when we were feared, what has changed is the personnel. I do take the point DW took-on the present personnel BUT how much were those choices limited by budget? I'm sounding like DW's agent here (gulp) but I'm not convinced that just getting rid of him will fix anything, certainly not in the short term. What would is two mean horrible gritty south pacific island props and a clone of that French bloke we had, he seemed okay ever with DW's coaching I think???

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 19:02
Brookes is on a big contract. England captain can’t be cheap.

I don’t buy that. Sorry.

 
tedge
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
tedge (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 19:12
Don't see the connection between Brookes and the England captain. Whatever contract Brookes is on it still might be a lot less than a better prop would have cost so - he was the best available at whatever we could afford at the time. As for the England captain he has been with us for 10 years or more and as the no.1 or no.2 hooker in the country he probably earns whatever he gets. We could easily end up with a less effective forwards coach than we have. It's not as black and white as some people make out.

 
andysaint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
andysaint (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 19:16
10 years under Jim and what succession planning do we have in terms of players and coaches? The academy is not producing as much as we want, we have average players with some second rate oversea ones, there are question marks over fitness, the board are making poor and delayed and we seem rudderless in terms of leadership. It feels like we are back in our relegation season again. Whoever comes in will have to make changes from top to bottom but this time there are other clubs in a better financial position who will be pulling away. The board needs a complete overhaul for allowing this to happen. If Jim pays the price for this so should the board.

Evolution not revolution should be the key to a successful club going forward but this club has failed. Coaches and players come and go more easily now and a club should be in a position to see a relatively seemless transition.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
GazzaTheDonkey (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 19:36
I think the board were under the impression they were doing a good job of running a successful and profitable business and simply didn't see the massive impact the French based wage inflation was having on it. If there is one thing I do blame Jim for it is as DOR he should have gotten this message over to the board better - SPEND MONEY ON PLAYERS OR DIE - and I don't just mean big-name signings.

Look what happened to Wasps and how they turned it around.

 
ajack
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
ajack (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 19:41
Did it say on BT that we have the best scrum on our own put in ?

 
andysaint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
andysaint (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 20:08
Quote:
GazzaTheDonkey
I think the board were under the impression they were doing a good job of running a successful and profitable business and simply didn't see the massive impact the French based wage inflation was having on it. If there is one thing I do blame Jim for it is as DOR he should have gotten this message over to the board better - SPEND MONEY ON PLAYERS OR DIE - and I don't just mean big-name signings.
Look what happened to Wasps and how they turned it around.

It seems our recruitment got a bit lost when Dimes went up to Sale. All should be accountable to someone but it seems like Jim was given carte Blanche on everything even when it comes to signing some very questionable players. The board have shown a serious lack of judgement.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 20:15
Yes Ajack as per my original post there is a misleading stats on ‘balls won on own put in’.

I’m guessing this is due to clean striking and quick ball out.

When was the last time we dominated an opposition scrum and milked penalties out of them? Not for years.....


We haemorrhage penalties when the opponent puts the ball in.

 
ajack
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
ajack (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 20:40
I understand statistics do not tell you the quality of the ball or the amount of penalties won but to top the stats for winning your own ball with the pack we have is still a major coaching achievement.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 20:57
And this my friends is why Saints have historically been and currently are distinctly average. Ineptitude is lauded as success.


It’s a naff stat. All that stat shows is that you’ve hooked the ball out. There is zero coaching achievement with our scrum. Show me the stats on penalties conceded at the scrum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23/12/2017 21:00 by HungryLikeTheWolf.

 
Christoff
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 21:01
Quote:
GazzaTheDonkey
but we had the same forwards coach when we were feared, what has changed is the personnel. I do take the point DW took-on the present personnel BUT how much were those choices limited by budget? I'm sounding like DW's agent here (gulp) but I'm not convinced that just getting rid of him will fix anything, certainly not in the short term. What would is two mean horrible gritty south pacific island props and a clone of that French bloke we had, he seemed okay ever with DW's coaching I think???

No, much more has changed. Game has moved on massively so have the laws. The rest of the rugby world has moved on and Saints haven't. Most ND1 sides would compete, at worst, with our pack. The way things are going we may have an opportunity to see that tested in 2018.

 
fleetg
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
fleetg (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 21:14
I kind of agree Tedge.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that we what we need is a massive overhaul of both coaches and players and that it would take a few years i.e both contribute to our problems.

 
ElySaint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
ElySaint (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 21:30
Of course you can get rid of DW. Just as soon as the point is made explicit to any incoming party that he is NOT a requirement. That attitude has cost us good coaches joining recently. I think if we could line up a decent forwards coach tomorrow we’d get rid. However, that ain’t gonna happen because any new DoR will, I hope, bring thier own coaches. Then we can wave goodbye and so log to DW. For now though, we’re frankly shite up front and it is a lot of his fault

 
Brackleysaint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Brackleysaint (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 21:47
Hewitt & Robson have a huge contribution as to why we are in the position we are now and not just for giving JM & DW 5 year contracts, got this feeling they limited the spending on players to the cap at maximum including the two excluded players, if that.

 
Eif Jones
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 22:07
If you recruit to improve the Wanderers then this what happens to the first team. Note, Tomas Francis, probably their best scrummaging tight head wasn't even in their squad.

In that first half there were very few scrums. The first one, our tight head was penalised costing 3 points. Would you believe at the next Saints possession that same tight-head dropped a pass. You would have thought he would have held on to the ball at all costs rather than cope with another scrum.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Saint Dom (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 22:11
This thread reads like a series of Sun headlines.

Hungry “whatever you call yourself” - please make your point in person to Dorian West - who, incidentally, knows more about scrummaging and scrummagers than you’ve had hot dinners. Few, I suspect.

Our problems are not with coach or coaches, per se. They are a series of issues, endemic throughout the Club, and a good deal of misfortune.

You cannot ‘hang on’ to players such as Corbs, Salesi, Samu Manoa or Louis Picamoles, or George North, when they are offered better terms elsewhere...unless you are prepared to cheat on the scale of Saracens, and (probably) one or two other teams.

And you cannot just repeat successes, such as we had between 2008-2014 without a sugardaddy behind the scenes and a lot more energy than we have had since 2014. We appear to have rested on our laurels.

The Exeter model is different, in that it is not about the conspicuous display of wealth, à la Bath, Wasps or Saracens. It is about a highly effective work ethic and self belief, such as we had about 3 years ago.

Among other things, we just have to try a lot harder, rebuild our sense of purpose and get our confidence back. Changing coaches is a cheap solution, and sacking JM was almost certainly the wrong option. Maybe the Board should have gone...?



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/99/99_0_1202835632.jpg
*I could agree with you - but then we'd both be wrong...*

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 22:27
Saint Dom


Given how disastrously wrong your views have been over the last 2 years, I’d expect a little humility.


I would have given Jim and Dorian 3 year contracts. I would have replaced them last summer with Johan Ackerman. And we would currently be one of the best sides in the country - all of that I’ve posted during that time incidentally. But, you know, sure your policy of doing nothing but crossing fingers, with a few sound bites, would probably have stopped this happening.


You make me smile.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23/12/2017 22:31 by HungryLikeTheWolf.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Saint Dom (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 22:29
I’m glad to have made you smile.

Sweet dreams, lad.



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/99/99_0_1202835632.jpg
*I could agree with you - but then we'd both be wrong...*

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 22:32
Sorry I’m just enjoying one of my rare hot dinners.

 
Walks11
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Walks11 (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 23:00
Quote:
SaintMaul
Sacking West would leave us with just Dickens. Then when we don't play well in the next game aft3r West goes it will be calls to sack Dickens. Then sack the Board. Then sack the postboy if we can't find someone else to blame.
The priority for me is filling the interim DoR role and ideally finding a permanent DoR sooner rather than later. They should be free to keep, bring in or release who they want.

I'm hoping the CEO had a shortlist to contact immediately after pulling the trigger for Jim and an announcement is imminent.
+1

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
23 December, 2017 23:54
It has to be the coaching, look at how many internationals our pack has in it!

 
Bob Fossil
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 03:26
I'll have the 5-minute argument, please.

 
Stevie Myler's right boot
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
24 December, 2017 06:16
Every story you hear keeps saying West is the problem- there isn’t smoke without fire. Jim didn’t have the stomach to do what was necessary and took the easy option out according to the reports. Personally I would get rid of him as currently there is no value add - all the areas he is responsible for we are getting creamed in. That would leave a gap which I’m sure the players could fill in the interim - I won’t buy that they couldn’t work it out themselves if put in that position and I’m sure the atmosphere would improve as a consequence. It would probably also make the recruiting easier. We’re in the @#$%& and doing the same thing that got us there isn’t going to improve things.
If you don’t evolve/change you become extinct - welcome to Saints 2015-2017

 
Christoff
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 08:03
We couldn't do worse if we didn't have a forwards coach. If the forwards at the club were told "right, you lot get on with it. Sort it". We just couldn't be worse. We might be better letting experienced players get it sorted amongst themselves. Is there any chance that some of them are saying things like "he knows jack all, why don't we do .....". Well perhaps they should just ignore him and go their own way. We couldn't be worse. If they get a gameplan for a match day (laughs) they should just ignore it and go their own way. We couldn't be worse. We could only be as bad. Unless we've still not hit the bottom. Is there anyone on this board that doesn't think we're in a relegation battle?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
BerniesBestFriend (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 08:23
Shouldn't this thread be renamed

"Get rid of current forwards coach RIGHT NOW"

 
Box kick it
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Box kick it (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 08:45
I think they tried to change style a little bit and went for a light weight mobile pack.

I still believe most of our problems come down to fitness. Not enough hard work done in previous years and pre- season.

You can’t jyst conjour this up.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
GazzaTheDonkey (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 11:20
"You cannot ‘hang on’ to players such as Corbs, Salesi, Samu Manoa or Louis Picamoles"
So True
But you can replace them with players of equal quality IF YOU PAY THE MONEY

If DW is such a useless coach how come we had a pack coached by him that put the fear of god into opposition in the not so distant past? And I don't buy the reasoning 'Rugby has moved on' not in the front row it hasn't, they are still feral animals, well I know they don't bite each other any more but they would still try if they didn't have the cameras on them all the time. Punch you in the head one minute, buy you a pint the next - bless them.
We also need a no8 that can carry hard into the opposition, knocking them over, rouses the blood like nothing else. Don't get me wrong I like TH a lot, just not at 8 - he's no Thomas the Tank for example.

I love the magic bullet solution - sack "insert name here" and we will win the Prem!!!
I also hope Father Christmas brings us all the other things we have wished for.

A very Merry Christmas one and all (even DW)

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 11:56
So are you saying dorian is a good coach? Even though we are terrible in the forwards?

That sounds pretty crazy to me, almost stupid.

How can he be anything other than a bad coach? He’s trained 3 English tightheads and made them all worse! Is that good coaching?

 
tedge
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
tedge (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 11:57
Quote:
GazzaTheDonkey
"You cannot ‘hang on’ to players such as Corbs, Salesi, Samu Manoa or Louis Picamoles"
So True
But you can replace them with players of equal quality IF YOU PAY THE MONEY

If DW is such a useless coach how come we had a pack coached by him that put the fear of god into opposition in the not so distant past? And I don't buy the reasoning 'Rugby has moved on' not in the front row it hasn't, they are still feral animals, well I know they don't bite each other any more but they would still try if they didn't have the cameras on them all the time. Punch you in the head one minute, buy you a pint the next - bless them.
We also need a no8 that can carry hard into the opposition, knocking them over, rouses the blood like nothing else. Don't get me wrong I like TH a lot, just not at 8 - he's no Thomas the Tank for example.

I love the magic bullet solution - sack "insert name here" and we will win the Prem!!!
I also hope Father Christmas brings us all the other things we have wished for.

A very Merry Christmas one and all (even DW)

We just don't have the financial resources to compete with those who do. Any coach will tell you that the first essential to effective coaching is good players. Whether we like it or not we are simply unable to recruit the quality we had five years ago. Yes we got Picamoles and North and are getting Biggar but world class front rowers are out of our salary reach and average ones cannot be coached to world class.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 12:10
Stop making excuses for ineptitude !!!!



Harry Williams and Ben Moon are not ‘world class’ props. Yes Harry is a promising youngster who Eddie Jones has given some time to.

Cowan-Dickie is 3rd or 4th in the England pecking order currently AND DYLAN IS AHEAD BASED ON SET PIECE.

They also have Alec Hepburn, Tomas Francis, Moray Low..... we aren’t talking Carl Hayman, Andrew Sheridan and Owen Franks!



Yet they absolutely drilled us in the forwards. Drilled us.

 
tedge
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
tedge (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 12:35
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
Stop making excuses for ineptitude !!!!


Harry Williams and Ben Moon are not ‘world class’ props. Yes Harry is a promising youngster who Eddie Jones has given some time to.

Cowan-Dickie is 3rd or 4th in the England pecking order currently AND DYLAN IS AHEAD BASED ON SET PIECE.

They also have Alec Hepburn, Tomas Francis, Moray Low..... we aren’t talking Carl Hayman, Andrew Sheridan and Owen Franks!



Yet they absolutely drilled us in the forwards. Drilled us.

That might just be because they are more naturally talented than ours

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 12:45
and every side is every week?

Brookes/Hill Hartley/Haywood Waller/Maafu should be absolutely fine against any opposition

Plenty of international caps and wages there

Yet for 2-3 years they’ve been sent backwards.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 13:00
Also




Having 9 centres, 2 super rugby 9s and a marquee winger yet a scrum that back pedals against any decent outfit is a misallocation of resources.

Having an unbeaten reserve side but a first team scrum that gets pumped every week is a misallocation of resources.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
GazzaTheDonkey (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 13:07
Ah HLTW we do agree on something!

Starts with the pack, always has done and always will do - unless they turn it into that other 'sport' RL (spits and turns round twice)

Perhaps DW's problem is he doesn't do cheating? Like diving in footy perhaps there does need to be a coach for that, until ref's understand scrums that is (hahahahahaha!)

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 13:48
A Leicester hooker that doesn’t cheat.... give over

 
Stevie Myler's right boot
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
24 December, 2017 14:52
We have gone backwards since the ‘hit’ was removed - perhaps he can’t get his head around how the scrum works anymore and doesn’t know how to fix it

 
ch saint
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
ch saint (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 16:48
No team can win if they are weak in the scrum. The statistic quoted re our success on put-in is misleading, we rarely push teams back, even the weakest, to win penalties. I suspect it is partially due to recruiting light weight forwards, as well as coaching. Every team we face seems to be substantially bigger than us.

 
ajack
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
ajack (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:04
Sarries seemed to manage to do it against a Tigers team pushing them all over the park.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:14
One swallow doesn’t make a summer. Double European champions can probably get away with it against a very average Tigers side.


We can’t.

 
ajack
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
ajack (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:40
So you do realise that the scrum is not the be all and end all and having an all international front row doesn't automatically mean you wont get shoved about or mean the coach doesn't know what he is doing then?

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:49
I believe you’re just being facetious here. Let’s try it this way:-

1. We have had a poor scrum for 2-3 years agree or disagree?

2. When we won the prem we had a dominant scrum. Agree or disagree?

3. Without an OK scrum we will struggle against the top sides. Agree or disagree?

4. Dorian is in charge of this department which includes recruitment and coaching. Agree or disagree?

 
ajack
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
ajack (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 19:04
1. Disagree we have the best scrum on our own put in so that is simply not true, we do have a big problem on the opposition put in however.
2. Sort of agree but not as strong as before we won the premiership.
3. Depends how you define ok, if we had everything else in place we would still be okay, but a strong scrum obviously helps.
4. Don't know how much DW gets to choose recruitment, do you really know?

The scrum of course helps but really isn't as important as it once was, we have far bigger problems at the minute.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Get a new forwards coach RIGHT NOW
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 19:58
1.

No we have ‘won the most ball on our own put in’


That is NOT the same as having the ‘best’ scrum on our own ball


How many scrum penalties have we won on our own put-in? If fhat stat is at the top then I will doff my hat and bow to your superior knowledge.


I am going to suggest we are near the bottom on that metric.

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