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Ady32
Contrasting styles
Ady32 (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 10:18
One of the enduring images I have from yesterday's game was what each team did in possession. Invariably Exeter just kept hold of it, recycling countless times with great patience and either scoring of going close. Whereas the times we had the ball, whilst i liked the faster game, it was also clear that we would try and force it with an offload that wasn't on or a dodgy pass that went to ground, etc.....a generalisation of course but IMO an enduring pattern

 
San Miguel
Re: Contrasting styles
San Miguel (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 10:58
To play a really fast game the skill levels have to be very high too. Saracens exhibited this the last time they were at the Gardens. Chiefs didn't really have to do much to beat us, just trust in their systems and their strengths, set piece being one of them. Agree 100% with your points about patience and recycling. They knew that over time the amount of tackles Saints had to make would take their toll.

What is staggering is how much we over-complicate plays when in possession. Thinking Harry's dropped ball near oppo 22. Why not have the ball go through hands rather being too cute and clever? Ace's try was primarily made through quick distribution and Horne coming onto the ball at real pace.

It appears we think we're the All Blacks when in reality we're more like Italy.

 
tedge
Re: Contrasting styles
tedge (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 11:16
Basics, basics, basics. Invariably our backs resort to ambitious passes risking and often being intercepted or are impossible for their own man to take. I saw none of these from Exeter - they pass quickly to a man or men on or near the shoulder of the passer. Saints achieved similar just the once with Tuala's try which was the epitome of basic, simple first phase rugby. Horne makes a big difference - he knows his stuff.

 
tboullem
Re: Contrasting styles
Mobbs (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 13:18
We score some cracking tries but no damned use if you concede 4-5 every game. I have always wittered on about POSSESSION and TERRITORY......I will now add PATIENCE to that list !

 
San Miguel
Re: Contrasting styles
San Miguel (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 13:50
Quote:
tedge
Basics, basics, basics. Invariably our backs resort to ambitious passes risking and often being intercepted or are impossible for their own man to take. I saw none of these from Exeter - they pass quickly to a man or men on or near the shoulder of the passer. Saints achieved similar just the once with Tuala's try which was the epitome of basic, simple first phase rugby. Horne makes a big difference - he knows his stuff.

Quite right, Tedge. Btw, Francis cannot pass effectively from left to right. Seen him throw a couple of howlers in the last couple of games. Literally at bootstraps.

 
ajack
Re: Contrasting styles
ajack (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 14:35
To be realistic we were never going to beat Exeter whatever we did, so anyone who just wants to criticise could do so whatever happened. Our defence looked far better against one of the best teams and we actually managed to cause them problems. It was a big step in the right direction, not sure what some people expect.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Contrasting styles
Connorman (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 14:47
Quote:
ajack
...not sure what some people expect.

A competitive scrum? Not dominant, just competitive.

 
Stevie Myler's right boot
Re: Contrasting styles
24 December, 2017 14:54
Quote:
Connorman
Quote:
ajack
...not sure what some people expect.

A competitive scrum? Not dominant, just competitive.
And a number of times we have gone backwards with a heavier pack than the oppo - thatís down to technique

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Contrasting styles
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 15:05
A vaguely competitive scrum, not even competitive, would do

shunted around in your own back garden is absolutely the pits

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Contrasting styles
Connorman (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 15:08
+1

 
Walks11
Re: Contrasting styles
Walks11 (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 15:20
One team is top of the league confident in retaining possession and whose game is based on patience and long multi phases of play. The other is towards the bottom and low on confidence and are desperate for something to click so impatient.

 
ch saint
Re: Contrasting styles
ch saint (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 15:32
Quote:
ajack
To be realistic we were never going to beat Exeter whatever we did, so anyone who just wants to criticise could do so whatever happened. Our defence looked far better against one of the best teams and we actually managed to cause them problems. It was a big step in the right direction, not sure what some people expect.

I expect to be vaguely competitive and to travel hopefully, so what do you expect?

 
ajack
Re: Contrasting styles
ajack (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:01
See Sarries managed another win with a scrum getting shunted all over the show. Still they will never win anything.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Contrasting styles
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:07
Quote:
San Miguel
Quote:
tedge
Basics, basics, basics. Invariably our backs resort to ambitious passes risking and often being intercepted or are impossible for their own man to take. I saw none of these from Exeter - they pass quickly to a man or men on or near the shoulder of the passer. Saints achieved similar just the once with Tuala's try which was the epitome of basic, simple first phase rugby. Horne makes a big difference - he knows his stuff.

Quite right, Tedge. Btw, Francis cannot pass effectively from left to right. Seen him throw a couple of howlers in the last couple of games. Literally at bootstraps.
.

His long mis pass left to right into Harryís bread basket yesterday for the try would suggest he can ....

agree Iíve been disappointed with some of his passing, didnít do that in Auckland



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/12/2017 17:08 by HungryLikeTheWolf.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Contrasting styles
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:10
Quote:
ajack
See Sarries managed another win with a scrum getting shunted all over the show. Still they will never win anything.


Youíre just coming on here to wind people up of late, I think the mantle of King Troll has been taken for 2017.

Saracens are usually rock solid, you know that (they battered us) but Mako was done by Cole today. An ex Lion told me heís the best scrummaging 3 in world rugby and heís started to really show why of late.


We however have been shite for nearly 3 years at scrums, not a one off.


The result today? Yeah, we arenít Saracens Ajack.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/12/2017 17:13 by HungryLikeTheWolf.

 
ajack
Re: Contrasting styles
ajack (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:34
Not at all, I am just amused by people who really don't understand the importance of the scrum banging on as if they do. Australia and NZ have both been the best teams in the world without great scrums, Argentina have never been the best despite having the best scrum for periods of time. Sarries have seldom had the best scrum, Wasps certainly don't have . Obviously having a dominate scrum helps either on your own ball or the oppositions but neither is the be all or end all, we have bigger problems at the minute.

 
Saintly Pursuit
Re: Contrasting styles
Saintly Pursuit (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:44
We don't have to have the best scrum. One that is adequate or better would be nice though.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Contrasting styles
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:46
You are conflating 2 points

1. Having THE BEST scrum
2. Having a competitive scrum


None of those teams would have won a thing without a competitive scrum. Not one.



If you conceded 5-10 penalties per game from scrums you haemorrhage free points, chunks of field position and it kills morale. It is an absolute fundamental of the game.



We do not have a competitive scrum and it kills us week after week.

 
Saint Nath
Re: Contrasting styles
Saint Nath (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 17:55
I think the days of set piece totally dominating games is gone.

However it is required to have a on par set peice at least to consistently compete in the Prem and against the top teams. So that should be what we expect and coaches should aim to provide at the minimum.

But there are also other aspects of our game that need drastically improving in order for us too compete.

Our basic skills sadly are very very low. We seem able to produce fantastic moments and moves. (Ace try).
But infact struggle to put together periods of pressure and stress defences with multi phase attacks.

Passing is poor.
Catching is poor. (Sounds silly, but it really is)
Timing of runs is poor.

So IMO I very much agree that there is a need for change at Forwards Coach, but also think we desperately need a skills/backs coach.

 
Saintly Pursuit
Re: Contrasting styles
Saintly Pursuit (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 18:29
Timing of runs being poor is probably a symptom of problems elsewhere.

Poor clearing out at the ruck.
Too many combinations of 9/10.

 
Walks11
Re: Contrasting styles
Walks11 (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 18:36
We donít need a dominant scrum. We do need a scrum that will produce us ball on our own feed and a scrum that does not gift territory by conceding penalties. Anything else is a bonus

 
ajack
Re: Contrasting styles
ajack (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 18:51
We have a scrum that will produce us ball on our own feed, it is the best in the premiership at least statistically. It is a major problem when it is not our put in but there are far bigger problems at the club than that.

 
Longers
Re: Contrasting styles
Longers (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 19:03
Quote:
ajack
To be realistic we were never going to beat Exeter whatever we did, so anyone who just wants to criticise could do so whatever happened. Our defence looked far better against one of the best teams and we actually managed to cause them problems. It was a big step in the right direction, not sure what some people expect.

Quite right Ajack, the defence was much better.

Have you any comment on the scrum? The source - in my opinion - of our real problems. In answer to your parting question - I would expect a competitive scrum. Not dominant, competitive.

 
ch saint
Re: Contrasting styles
ch saint (IP Logged)
24 December, 2017 22:30
Quote:
ch saint
Quote:
ajack
To be realistic we were never going to beat Exeter whatever we did, so anyone who just wants to criticise could do so whatever happened. Our defence looked far better against one of the best teams and we actually managed to cause them problems. It was a big step in the right direction, not sure what some people expect.

I expect to be vaguely competitive and to travel hopefully, so what do you expect?

Still waiting for a response.

 
ajack
Re: Contrasting styles
ajack (IP Logged)
25 December, 2017 09:51
ch saint, sorry I expect small and continued improvements hopefully as part of a long term plan. I thought we saw that against one of the best teams in the country, but still a long way to go.

 
Eif Jones
Re: Contrasting styles
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 00:55
Ajack, what happens in a few weeks, just Clermont who did a bigger job on Saints scrum first time round than I have ever seen done on any team's scrum in my spectating lifetime. With a bit of luck they may send over their usual away side, like La Rochelle did in the last round.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Contrasting styles
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 07:43
I actually think the Style was fine against Cheifs, we competed with them in open play. Set piece was the devil in the room

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Contrasting styles
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 13:38
Agree. With decent set pieces it would have been a close match

A close match against the champions is good

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: Contrasting styles
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 14:43
We definitely donít have the best scrum on our put in. We often get pushed all over the shop.

I donít always trust the statistics, theyíve been wrong quite a few times.

 
rugbymel
Re: Contrasting styles
rugbymel (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 15:35
Winning the scrum on your own put in is useless if the scrum goes backwards at a rate of knots and the number 8 or scrum half have to deal with rubbish ball. Statistics always tell part of the story.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Contrasting styles
BerniesBestFriend (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 17:01
Maybe it's just T Doing a great job?


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