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MESSAGES->author
Recruitment strategy
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 13:27
As a forum we often talk about needing to recruit to such and such position or changing the forwards coach. But approaching it more from what we are seeking to achieve/address - what are our priorities to shape our recruitment?

For me the pack has to be priority as we are getting crucified. The five big issues (apart from coaching) seem to me to be:

- power/bulk in our pack. Our pack is lightweight and has gone from bullying teams to being bullied;
- a lack of ball carriers;
- jackal and slowing down ability at the breakdown;
- desire; and
- fitness.

Are these the big issues that if we addressed we'd be back competing top 4?

Part of where our recruitment hasn't worked so well for me is where we have recruited decent quality individually but when I look at the collective recruitment it doesn't work as a unit.

Tiny and Samu leave and where is the bulk and ball-carrying replacements? We sack the Hood and bring in players with known poor fitness/taking care of themselves issues.

Players with that inner non-coachable go to any lengths to win mentality (think Wilkinson,Lam or Farrell). Our leaders of this ilk choose to leave (Kahn, Calum, Louise). Too many senior players comfortable. So for me looking for players who hate to lose that we can build a team around (Biggar is a good signing for me in this regard).

The good news for me is Briussow should address the jackal/ slowing down issues.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Recruitment strategy
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 13:33
Good post Maul and agree with it


This is crude analysis but when i just look at our pack compared to opponents, we just appear to be light.... particularly in the legs. We have slim forwards


Wood
Gibson
Lawes
Ribbans
Patterson
Harrison


All of these guys have quite a high centre of gravity, they are not heavy in the legs. Sure any team could have a couple of guys like that but as a collective our back 5 are not ‘dense’ enough. I would have had them all on leg weights last summer to build some mass.

And it’s likely a reason our scrum suffers, lack of ballast in behind the front row.

 
Nath-coys
Re: Recruitment strategy
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 13:38
I also agree that I believe Biggar is a good signing.
Providing the drive and control from 10 we need.

2 props
1 2nd row.
Number 8.
And a winger.

So..... IMO.

2 powerful, experienced props that will sure up the scrum problem. And provide some grit in the pack.
Bulky 2nd row. Get some ballast in there.
Genuine number 8, to add some front foot ball from the base of the scrum and in the loose.
A young exciting winger, don't need a established superstar . In the mould of Lewington/Bassett would be what I would want.

 
riverlodge
Re: Recruitment strategy
riverlodge (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 13:40
JM was slightly unfortunate that his one world class signing post 2014, Picamoles, did not give us the couple more seasons that the club would have anticipated.

I appreciate that a class 8 only papered over the wider pack issues, but he was at least gaffer tape quality rather than just sellotape.

 
Saint Jericho
Re: Recruitment strategy
Saint Jericho (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 13:40
'The Jackal' role should be filled when Brussow gets here.

 
tedge
Re: Recruitment strategy
tedge (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 13:47
Will he be fit enough for the AP ?

 
St.Sinner
Re: Recruitment strategy
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 14:09
I think we need a new fitness & conditioning coach.
A modern day bullocking loose head like Genge at Leicester or Obano at bath for example,

A experienced lump at tighthead, with one job, just anchor the scrum. & a nasty big 2nd row giant. Any huge South African will do, there's plenty.

Get Harrison up a couple of stone to fill the 8 position.
& hopefully Brussow sorts the 7 shirt out like we all hope, with Ludlum as an apprentice.

I'd be happy to see all the signing be in the forwards, any more in the backs without addressing the pack would just be a waste of money IMO. We have Buggar coming, Tuala can fill 14, Harry at 15, then use the money saved on North in the forwards.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
GazzaTheDonkey (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 14:49
Good post - at very min we need one heavy duty prop and a big 8.

Not saying anyone in forwards need to go, Harrison especially needs to stay as flanker and cover for 8.

Backs - basically okay, nothing that a good slapping every time they kick the ball away needlessly wouldn't fix.

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: Recruitment strategy
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 14:50
Really you need balance.

So in the pack you need one solid prop and one great in the loose (we have neither at the moment).

One mobile lock (Lawes) and one lump, maybe Api fills that role???

If T bulks up he stays at 8, brussow at 7 and then a 6 who offers more than wood or Gibson. Some who can carry and tackle hard.

 
Stingray66
Re: Recruitment strategy
Stingray66 (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 15:00
Whatever forwards are recruited will probably go backwards if the past couple of years are anything to go by.
Are Brookes, Hill, Ribbans, Paterson, for example, better now than when they arrived?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 15:06
Saint Sinner. Completely agree we need to prioritise addressing the forwards but hopefully we can do this and still get a new winger.

Some players have disappointed and haven't been worth the wages. In some positions we simply have too many good players which is a waste of money that could be used better elsewhere e.g. flanker.

It strikes me we probably need to let a few players go to achieve the strategy.

 
Nath-coys
Re: Recruitment strategy
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 15:28
Ribbans is a lot better than when he arrived.
He is very young for a lock. He will get there.

 
Whiston Saint
Re: Recruitment strategy
Whiston Saint (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 15:50
We need to recruit players who have a competitive, winning mentality...passionate about playing for the club and being part of a team, rather than simply getting paid to turn up. Think back to our greatest hour with Matt Stewart, Freddie Mendez and Garry Pagel in a front row that never took a backward step. Massive pride and team spirit, when one of them was in, they were all in. Does our back row measure up to Pountney, Lamb and McKinnon? Total commitment.

Many of today’s Gym robot players have lost that team spirit and dog. The game has changed but there are still examples of old school attributes as mentioned earlier in Fazlet for example.

 
Christoff
Re: Recruitment strategy
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 16:29
Who's going to even want to join with the present coach in charge. Fine to have a strategy obviously and I totally agree with the main assessments of our needs, but bringing it home is another issue.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 16:48
As I'm prone to using phrases from elsewhere I'll throw this one about for a while...
Improvement in young players is not linear.

 
SaintsMan87
Re: Recruitment strategy
SaintsMan87 (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 18:52
I think we need to coach the flankers to push more, because we’re under pressure they look to get off to help the line when actually they need to stay on and push to help the front row

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 21:30
Quote:
Robby Richmond
Improvement in young players is not linear.

Completely agree. For example it would be easy to suggest Paul Hill has been disappointing. But he is a very young prop. He has faced some tough lessons in the adult game. But as his power and scrummaging skills improve the other undoubted assets that made him the most capped England Under 20 of all time will bear fruit (and why Eddie Jones tried to cap him early). Leadership, composure, consistency, will to win, team commitment, his wider athleticism etc.

 
Raggs
Re: Recruitment strategy
Raggs (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 21:34
As an outsider, I'd say your usual pack has too many workhorses in.

Waller, Hartley, Wood, Gibson etc etc

I don't mean that as an insult btw, most of them could easily find their way into most other sides packs, but they'd be part of the glue, rather than the main focus. That guy going around making sure the rest keeps on working (Haskell for us is a good example), the problem is, you need people actually making big plays.

Lawes is a decent midfield carrier, in positions where he can stretch his legs a bit, and use his long arms to fend, but as a one out runner not so good (nice option for a second pop pass, when he's at the edge of the forwards defending). Harrison is a good carrying option due to his determination, but there's only so much he can do. Both Brookes and Ford-Robinson can put in the odd heavy carry, but you can't expect much from a tighthead.

I'd reckon you need 1 more solid carrier in each row really, no need for Mako/Genge loosehead, but someone who can crash it up (in our case, McIntyre is a good example, or an Ashley Johnson like hooker), Ribbans looks like he may be able to fulfill that at 2nd row (though I'd be tempted to have Lawes at 6 and Harrison at 7, with a big bruiser of a 2nd row with Ribbans), the obviously an 8 in the Samu/Picamoles mould.

Wouldn't hurt if there was more invention in the backs, but if you get the right pack, the simple direct route that was so successful a few seasons ago, would still offer a lot.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 21:35
Another recruitment issue could be in relation to our kicking tactics. Another reason I'm hopeful for the difference Biggar will make is he is one of the best exponents of regathering his own up and under kicks. Hopefully something he can help teach our backs.


It's improved since Lee Dixon left and Harry gets better height than our historic kickers but it's been an area of weakness for years.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
26 December, 2017 22:13
Quote:
Raggs
Both Brookes and Ford-Robinson can put in the odd heavy carry, but you can't expect much from a tighthead.


Herein lies part of the problem.
Both of these lads & Hill & Waller are being asked to replace Mooj & Tiny, seen as legends and monstrous ball carriers first, scrummagers second.
The perception, the rose-tinted glasses, means they'll never live up to expectation.

Many Saints supporters will recall the dogs' abuse Johnny Howard used to get where his principal crime was that he wasn't Sharky Robinson.

I also recall going back and forth with Saint Ed (merry Xmas Ed if you're reading this) about the front row carrying to replace the workload of Samu. I still believe that our props are more than capable but the coaching set-up has seen the side move into 'Rugby Robots' format since 2015. Go to A do B, got to C do D.

I think people probably see this more now than ever, but what we've more often than not seen an issue with trust. Brookes and Co have never been given the ball in the same areas that Tiny & Mooj (& Samu) were allowed to have it (in channels on the front foot against weaker defenders). Trust is earned mind, though being offered a chance to do is also part of it.

The other argument of course (as Eif will tell you) is that we're still trying to play that way with lesser quality staff. Well, that may be true, but as mentioned on other threads from posters who've seen the light you need to see some semblance of improvement. Improvement isn't linear (the phrase of the week) but in terms tangible, empirical evidence, you have to look really hard to see it from a skills point of view.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26/12/2017 23:28 by Happywifehappylife.

 
Eif Jones
Re: Recruitment strategy
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 00:23
Exeter had 4 props plus Francis who would all make the Saints 1st team squad, and all 5 are big solid guys. Where did they get them from, almost all from ND1, Williams from Jersey, Francis from Carnegie, Moon has been at Exeter since ND1, another from Cornish Pirates, not familiar enough with the rest. Ours from ND1 Bristol looks tiny compared to them.

As I've said before, the problem with Saints recruitment has been that its always playing catch up. If we had sorted our no 7 and no 10 issues years ago then time could have been spent elsewhere in a timely fashion, rather than, as now, in crisis mode. Last summer we had to solve our problems in the mid-field a season too late, now we discover that we are lightweight at prop where a decent coaching staff would have been on to that problem last season. And of course, Picamoles left a gap at no 8 unsolved, dare I suggest he may have stayed with more success at the club.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 00:40
Exeter bought massive props from ND1? Is there any other type? Isn't your continued argument that saints have recruited too often from ND1?
Lol.

But seriously Eif look at the other side of the coin and they've been coached on. Exeter's brand of rugby has been moaned about by people like Stuart Barnes but it fits what they're trying to achieve.

How many sides, ourselves included have gone to Sandy Park & been unable to deal with the wind? How do Exeter deal with it? Don't kick, trust your system and make sure they win the contact and the gain line.

All I'm saying is, in a long-winded way, is recruitment should marry up with your brand of rugby (difficult to do let's be honest) but if you can't get the players you want & have to compromise then you have to coach players on & guess who hasn't?

But it's all Dusty Hare's fault right?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
Saint Dom (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 11:06
There’s no “one best way” (my contender for phrase of the week!

Jim and Dorian are fine coaches, or they would not have taken Saints as far as they did. Their recruitment was good - so long as it was good (forgive the ambiguity). Their team selection, game strategy, tactical nous - all were good.

Their crime was in not adapting when circumstances and the context changed. We have all seen the Laws being tinkered with, especially the scrum protocols, but Jim and Dorian seemed unable to adapt to these changes. And, of course, other teams learned to read our strategies and - although it took them a long time - by the end of 2015, inferior teams began to beat us up and bully us on the pitch.

Once the rot starts, it’s hard to stop, even with recruitment. Again, Jim should have recruited coaches who could have adapted to the new realities but, instead of keeping experienced and intuitive coaches (Grayson, King, even Victor M), he saw them as a threat to his authority. That was (we are told) the reasoning behind his sacking.

Now that we are at rock bottom, all we can do is speculate about who will come in to clear out the Augean Stable. I hope it won’t be Sanderson, or Ford or Gatland. But, whoever it is, they will get my full support, hoping that just the effect of change may do the trick.

I say all this at risk of ad hominem attacks from the venom-spitters, et al. But please - just let’s dwell on the future now. Our first task is to recruit an interim coach. Then, get through the season with some home wins, and finally, to appoint a new coaching team who can rejuvenate the many outstanding players we already possess.



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/99/99_0_1202835632.jpg
*I could agree with you - but then we'd both be wrong...*

 
St.Sinner
Re: Recruitment strategy
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 11:53
On the prop front, why don't we buy a couple in their 30's. Been there done that, they will do a job for a couple seasons. The academy props can learn off them. No more buying "prospects" buy the real McCoy. Get someone in who knows what they're doing. Rather the wages go on that than have marquee wingers stood getting cold.

 
Dragonboy
Re: Recruitment strategy
Dragonboy (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 15:46
Worked with Barrie Stewart

 
Christoff
Re: Recruitment strategy
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 15:56
Quote:
Saint Dom
There’s no “one best way” (my contender for phrase of the week!
Jim and Dorian are fine coaches, or they would not have taken Saints as far as they did. Their recruitment was good - so long as it was good (forgive the ambiguity). Their team selection, game strategy, tactical nous - all were good.

Their crime was in not adapting when circumstances and the context changed. We have all seen the Laws being tinkered with, especially the scrum protocols, but Jim and Dorian seemed unable to adapt to these changes. And, of course, other teams learned to read our strategies and - although it took them a long time - by the end of 2015, inferior teams began to beat us up and bully us on the pitch.

Once the rot starts, it’s hard to stop, even with recruitment. Again, Jim should have recruited coaches who could have adapted to the new realities but, instead of keeping experienced and intuitive coaches (Grayson, King, even Victor M), he saw them as a threat to his authority. That was (we are told) the reasoning behind his sacking.

Now that we are at rock bottom, all we can do is speculate about who will come in to clear out the Augean Stable. I hope it won’t be Sanderson, or Ford or Gatland. But, whoever it is, they will get my full support, hoping that just the effect of change may do the trick.

I say all this at risk of ad hominem attacks from the venom-spitters, et al. But please - just let’s dwell on the future now. Our first task is to recruit an interim coach. Then, get through the season with some home wins, and finally, to appoint a new coaching team who can rejuvenate the many outstanding players we already possess.

Are posters that disagree with you venom-spitters then? A bit insulting I think. Few agree with my views but I don't view them the same way, we just don't agree. Anyway, no venom being spat by me on your post. I agree with much of it. Totally agree with your views around Gatland and Ford. Not sure we've reached rock bottom yet, suggests we couldn't get relegated. I believe that's still possible, unlikely due to one other teams abilities but I feel we'll be 11/12 quite soon and I hope their form doesn't look up because I can't see our form looking up any time soon. Slightly disagree about Sanderson, don't particularly like him or his brother but I think he'd do is a load of good short term. Couldn't see him coming to us even if we did want him though. We have some outstanding players, you are right. I'm not sure if I think we have as many as you think. I think many of our squad have been allowed to become less "outstanding" than they should be. Some have had their motivation "stuffing" knocked out of them by "the situation". I think our "non-marquee" recruitment has been distinctly average at best. Still, there you are. Hopefully no venom in your face there. None intended. HNY.

 
ch saint
Re: Recruitment strategy
ch saint (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 16:05
Good post St Dom but try to cut out the balls about venom-spitters, disrespectful to those who disagree with you.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Recruitment strategy
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 16:56
Hiss

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Recruitment strategy
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 16:59
(agree with Dom’s rugby content..... Smitz don’t worry it’s the modern age of passive aggression / being offended, one has to sing kumbaya and agree with everything, dull I know)

 
shiversaint
Re: Recruitment strategy
shiversaint (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 18:34
Quote:
Robby Richmond
Mooj & Tiny, seen as legends and monstrous ball carriers first, scrummagers second.

Really? I never perceived Mujati primarily as a ball carrier - he was an immense technical scrummager. Soane certainly, but I always reckoned they had complimentary skillsets that were strong all over the field. I think that plays into your point but their power was definitely the diverse, yet highly competitive skillset they both had, rather than one aspect of their game being measurably better than others.

 
ch saint
Re: Recruitment strategy
ch saint (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 18:37
When Mooj first arrived he was actually below par in terms of fitness and probably skill.

 
Christoff
Re: Recruitment strategy
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 20:11
[quote HungryLikeTheWolf](agree with Dom’s rugby content..... Smitz don’t worry it’s the modern age of passive aggression / being offended, one has to sing kumbaya and agree with everything, dull I know)[/quot
(Sm125)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/12/2017 20:12 by smitferbrainz.

 
Eif Jones
Re: Recruitment strategy
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
27 December, 2017 23:39
During the West Welsh local derby on S4C, the host/mc asked his guests how had Pivac managed to be so successful in his non-Welsh recruitment, usually unknowns, and they ran a short clip of the five involved (two of them are on their way home at the end of the season). I think Baxter at Exeter could be so included.

Then we get to the Saints, where 5 is a minimum rather than a maximum, and its a struggle, other than the scrum halves, to name real successes.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 08:49
You are not wrong Eif, let's have it right some teams have been absolutely wonderful when it's come to their recruitment and from a wider perspective it's excellent that they've given players from Division 1 or else were a chance to shine at a higher level.

There was some very interesting tweets yesterday from the secret footballer. Now I know some people don't like football and like to call it Wendy ball or kiss ball whatever condescending kind of statement you want to make about the most popular game in the world but in terms of recruitment it's a completely different world.
The secret footballer was very interested to note that after Jose Mourinho have made a statement saying that he needed more money (after spending just shy of 300 million pounds) that all of the players that Manchester United have brought in by a large all had the same agent the same agent as one Jose Mourinho.
So the secret footballers argument is that they have overpaid four star names rather than try to invest in young talent like Manchester City have.
And I say this knowing that Manchester City have invested millions of pounds in bringing in the Academy system to the highest level you can imagine new facilities a wealth of young players coming through top level young coaches lots of good physiotherapists and giving them the best chance of succeeding at the highest level.
But was Pogba and Lukaku both cost 90 million each, Manchester United still have a very strong scouting network and to imply as some have on Twitter that Manchester United were completely unaware of who Gabriel Jesus or Same were is naïve in the extreme.

There are many who will tell you that Jim was a golden god and that's fine I'm not going to argue with that but to imply that he wasn't perfect is also pretty laughable I'm sure that even Jim would admit that he needed help with recruitment and that's by & large where some of his biggest successes were made and also crucially where he's failed the most. To have such a ridiculously strong Wanderers side with many many international players playing in it just take two minutes to look at other sides comparatively.

Again we have to reference Lancing the boil and again we have to reference not improving players and again we have to reference the culture introducing to the club and the brand of coaching where buy players were sent to Coventry or just ignored.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
Saint Dom (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 09:01
Outstanding players? Well, that is not just subjective...

From my humble seat in the stand, just in front of the coaches’ perch, I see these as outstanding, and worth their place in any team - just not gelling at Saints:

Hartley, Haywood, Brookes, Waller, Lawes, Wood, Day, Harrison, Francis, Mallinder, Horne, Burrell, Foden, North, Tuala, Reinach, Groom - and many more nudging into contention.

There are plenty of posters who have their favourite stars and panto villains, but I suspect most would agree with my basic premise that these players are outstanding - but need to be outstanding more often, more consistently in a Saints shirt.

Please feel free to disagree! I’m sure you will smiling smiley
But, no ad hominem attacks. Being opinionated, that’s fine, but let’s stop there.

Our recruitment priority is coaches, not players...



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/99/99_0_1202835632.jpg
*I could agree with you - but then we'd both be wrong...*

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
Saint Dom (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 09:13
But, to agree with Robby, too...

We should be improving the Academy, and they should be the basic core of the Wandies, not out-of-favour internationals.

Spot on, RR.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Recruitment strategy
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 09:27
Was enjoying the thread until WendyBall was mentioned tongue sticking out smiley

The Academy should be every clubs main weapon imho, the second weapon is the ability to bring in players that can teach the academy players a thing or two. After all after those players have gone it tends to be the academy players that stick by the club

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Recruitment strategy
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 11:42
I am afraid Dom that from what I have seen, only maybe half of those are outstanding, maybe not even that many.

The others are good Prem players.

 
ch saint
Re: Recruitment strategy
ch saint (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 12:42
All of those players have been outstanding at one time or another, but however they are categorised I think we would all agree they are capable of being at least mid table.
I believe that performance is a s much mental as physical and as such it is not beyond the wit of man for a new coach to immediately improve the results and improve the performance of the six props we have. Longer term all of the issues raised by Robby have to be addressed.
I did say a year ago, in the face of criticism, that not taking action on the coaching front would be more expensive than taking action. Here we are now in a crisis instead of a planned change. That is the boards responsibility.

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Recruitment strategy
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 13:28
It is the Boards responsibility but as we have had major changes in leadership at the top of the organization also its tough to blame them.

 
ch saint
Re: Recruitment strategy
ch saint (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 13:58
Dont confuse the shareholder with the board. I am referring to a year ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/12/2017 14:00 by ch saint.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Recruitment strategy
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 13:59
It is true that one should not blame Mark Darbon and John White for previous decisions.

However the board is a collective. I believe we have something in the ball park of 10 Directors (mad for a very small company) and as such the collective is still responsible for the current predicament especially given 2 previous Chairmen still sit on it and the Deputy Chairmen has been on the board for at least 5 years maybe a decade or so.

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Recruitment strategy
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 14:04
The point is, if those who were in position before them did not want change then you have to move the roadblocks out of the way first.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Recruitment strategy
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 14:49
I am sorry the previous chairman is still on the board, Allan Robson has gone but his focus was the commercial side anyway (which he did well).

So I don't see why the board as a collective gets a free pass on our current predicament.

 
Christoff
Re: Recruitment strategy
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
28 December, 2017 15:18
Quote:
Saint Dom
Outstanding players? Well, that is not just subjective...
From my humble seat in the stand, just in front of the coaches’ perch, I see these as outstanding, and worth their place in any team - just not gelling at Saints:

Hartley, Haywood, Brookes, Waller, Lawes, Wood, Day, Harrison, Francis, Mallinder, Horne, Burrell, Foden, North, Tuala, Reinach, Groom - and many more nudging into contention.

There are plenty of posters who have their favourite stars and panto villains, but I suspect most would agree with my basic premise that these players are outstanding - but need to be outstanding more often, more consistently in a Saints shirt.

Please feel free to disagree! I’m sure you will smiling smiley
But, no ad hominem attacks. Being opinionated, that’s fine, but let’s stop there.

Our recruitment priority is coaches, not players...

Agree that our recruitment priority right now is one coach unless at least one other leaves. Let's hope that one other leaves asap. You have named 17 players that you feel are outstanding with "many more" being in contention. I disagree strongly with that, perhaps holding a similar view to Wolfie. Just my view. I look at that list of named players and for me 4 maybe 5 are outstanding, the rest are decent prem players. More were outstanding maybe 3 seasons ago but it's been knocked out of them. Out of my 4/5 I believe that only 1 would sit comfortably in most other prem teams or in a Prem 15. I agree with the general premise of not gelling, coaching issue (lost dressing room?). I stick to my belief of underwhelming non marquee recruitment but who'd come here now, st the moment anyway? We're in deep, deep trouble and this very ordinary squad are going to have to get themselves out of it, no 16th man, them and them alone. Can they do it. Yes of course they can but they're gonna need to sort themselves out and hope Irish stay as bad as they are.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Recruitment strategy
Saint Dom (IP Logged)
29 December, 2017 09:55
Well, I would have to refine my definition of “outstanding” to win your vote, it seems.

But these are players who have stood out, at one time or another, won “man of the match” awards, earned the plaudits for stellar performances.

I have to keep reminding myself that this is a team game, while so many others keep pointing the finger at individuals who are at fault for losses. In a team game, strategy and coaching are even more vital.

As for others, standing in the wings - I’m a huge fan of Stephen Myler, although I recognise his limitations, but who doesn’t have limitations?
Players such as Tommy Collins, Elliott, Nutters, Ribbans, Paul Hill, Lewis Ludlam have all shown signs of great quality and we have noticed them. There are more who show great promise, but haven’t appeared frequently - Hutchinson, Stephenson. We really do have the players, but not the secret ingredient that makes the team work; perhaps that is just consistency in selection at 9 and 10?

Of course, I’m not saying they are “world class”, which is a meaningless term, anyway. But I stand by my assertion and believe that, in your disagreements, you are really just saying, like me, that the team is far from outstanding...



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Christoff
Re: Recruitment strategy
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
29 December, 2017 10:16
Quote:
Saint Dom
Well, I would have to refine my definition of “outstanding” to win your vote, it seems.
But these are players who have stood out, at one time or another, won “man of the match” awards, earned the plaudits for stellar performances.

I have to keep reminding myself that this is a team game, while so many others keep pointing the finger at individuals who are at fault for losses. In a team game, strategy and coaching are even more vital.

As for others, standing in the wings - I’m a huge fan of Stephen Myler, although I recognise his limitations, but who doesn’t have limitations?
Players such as Tommy Collins, Elliott, Nutters, Ribbans, Paul Hill, Lewis Ludlam have all shown signs of great quality and we have noticed them. There are more who show great promise, but haven’t appeared frequently - Hutchinson, Stephenson. We really do have the players, but not the secret ingredient that makes the team work; perhaps that is just consistency in selection at 9 and 10?

Of course, I’m not saying they are “world class”, which is a meaningless term, anyway. But I stand by my assertion and believe that, in your disagreements, you are really just saying, like me, that the team is far from outstanding...

Dom, great to debate with you. I agree with much of what you say in the above post. I'd agree that the players who you named originally have had outstanding games for the team. Wood is a great example, outstanding definitely up until maybe 18 months ago, since then, ordinary at best I'd say. I think he's suffered more than most with "stuff" that's been happening at the club. Remember that Tom Wood in that semi final? See any resemblance now? I don't. You're quite right ref limitations and Myler has some but what a marvellous player he's been for us. We have great potential in Ribbans, Ludlum, Hill....well everyone you name. The x factor is how they're handled and that for me is what's going wrong. I'm really very much with your assertion that as a team we are far from outstanding. We don't need ALL world class, whatever that means, just a team full of good players excellently coached, guided and wanting to give everything and shows that every minute of every game.


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