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andysaint
Brian Moore does not mince his words
andysaint (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 20:24
Failure to cull in stages means seismic change is inevitable

“Ominously, I was told that the new man will have complete freedom to retain or replace anyone in the coaching or playing sphere. With 12 players out of contract at the end of the year you can expect huge changes in coming months.”

 
Longers
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Longers (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 20:35
Quote:
andysaint
Failure to cull in stages means seismic change is inevitable
“Ominously, I was told that the new man will have complete freedom to retain or replace anyone in the coaching or playing sphere. With 12 players out of contract at the end of the year you can expect huge changes in coming months.”

Registration required to read full script - any chance of a copy & paste job?

 
woodface
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
woodface (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 20:48
Brian Moore in today's Daily Telegraph

Failure to cull in stages means seismic change is inevitable for Northampton
Saints have kept too many senior players and new coach will have to crop dead wood
A decade back, nobody would have predicted that a rugby club’s annual fixture between Christmas and New Year would attract more than 75,000 people. It is a remarkable achievement that Harlequins’ Big Game now consistently attracts that number of spectators, the majority of whom are not normally rugby supporters.

At what point do Saints send Dylan Hartley on his way?
As a club, the challenge is to convert a small percentage each year into regular fans, and they can do that by playing the sort of expansive rugby that saw them beat Northampton 50–21.
At the pre-match Q and A I had said that this was the best time to play the Saints, given that they were a shambles at the moment. I did not know when I said this that I would be sitting next to Northampton’s top brass throughout the game, but it would have made no difference. Though I admire and like Northampton as a club, my thoughts are my own and it turns out that, though they might not have used such pejorative language, they agreed with the general thrust of what was said.
Jim Mallinder’s departure was inevitable. As the director of rugby, the responsibility for the lack of progress on the field had to stop with him; it was, I opined, a surprise that others in the management and coaching team had not gone as well.
This was where the conversation got interesting and, for Northampton fans, where the signals of seismic change were apparent.
Saints are not going to get relegated, so they can and should take their time in finding Mallinder’s permanent replacement, but until the end of the season, the Australian Alan Gaffney will take temporary charge. My guess is that the permanent replacement will also be from overseas. The problems he faces are not small and they are typical of those facing an English club who do not have money to throw around – or who want to, in the hope that it will solve everything. Northampton’s academy is producing plenty of talent but they cannot hope to introduce several young players at once and expect them instantly to play first-team Premiership rugby successfully.

If anything, the later years of Mallinder’s tenure were marked by misplaced loyalty to players who had produced the goods in the past but were no longer playing anything close to the standards of the past.
Ominously, I was told that the new man will have complete freedom to retain or replace anyone in the coaching or playing sphere. With 12 players out of contract at the end of the year you can expect huge changes in coming months.
The two issues of promoting youth and retaining older players are extremely difficult to get right but they are the ones which the best clubs and countries get right most of the time. At what point do Saints say to players like Tom Wood, Dylan Hartley, Ben Foden and Stephen Myler, players who have shown loyalty and been involved in Saints’ past triumphs, that they are surplus to requirements? The answer is that you have to do the cutting in stages but make sure it is done each year.
Unfortunately for Northampton, they find themselves in a position where too large a group of senior players has been allowed to remain, and England’s post-2003 decline is a salutary lesson in what happens when a side suddenly lose so much experience.
The promotion of nascent talent is inextricably bound to the issue of automatic promotion and relegation. English rugby needs to look again at this point because presently it is bedevilled by sentimental nonsense, preached by people who ignore, purposefully or otherwise, the reality of professional rugby.
In truth, only Bristol have the resources and ambition to play in the Premiership. No other Championship club have the ground, attendances or business model to make a serious attempt to be promoted and to stay in the Premiership under current arrangements.
The other clubs also have the inbuilt handicap that they invariably do not find out whether they are going to gain promotion until late in the season, by which time it is too late to negotiate contracts with sufficiently experienced players, even if they are available. Thus, unless they are like Bristol and can afford to contract such players to play in the Championship, in the hope of promotion, they face an almost impossible task.
Having promotion/relegation every three years would give all teams a realistic chance to build squads on a sensible basis and this, crucially, would allow young talent to be introduced on a realistic timescale. All we hear from romantic rugby writers and rugby purists is the parroting of the cliche that rugby must be seamless from top to bottom. If so, let them explain how the problems set out above can be solved or move into the real world.

 
Sans Culottes
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Sans Culottes (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 20:48
Lingers

Registration is free.

 
tedge
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
tedge (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 20:50
Just register - it's free and easy.

I agree with everything he says - especially about relegation

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 21:42
another ex England international singling out players, disgraceful abuse

 
fatrucker
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
fatrucker (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 22:04
Wtf do you mean. Perfectly reasonable assessment IMO.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 22:04
I wonder if the new DoR will have the freedom to get rid of any players in contract who are surplus to requirements and not just those out contract.

But then that costs money.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 22:17
Quote:
fatrucker
Wtf do you mean. Perfectly reasonable assessment IMO.


tongue firmly in cheek squire, see threads from Saturday

 
Christoff
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 23:45
Truth has been getting told for some time but few seemed to listen. Now it comes to this, exactly as Moore suggests. Elephant still in the room, fat long contracts, undroppables and questionable recruitment. Writings been on the wall for ages and the board have left it way late, arguably too late, we shall see. Clearly he believes Irish are gone as he's sure we won't go. Hope he's right on that one. Paints a sorry tale.

 
Eif Jones
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 00:36
Not sure I agree with his phrase ' Northampton’s academy is producing plenty of talent'.

 
Longers
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Longers (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 07:13
Thanks for all the advice!!

(Sm128)

 
andysaint
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
andysaint (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 08:14
Quote:
Eif Jones
Not sure I agree with his phrase ' Northampton’s academy is producing plenty of talent'.

The potential is there in Marshall Clare Onojaife Ludlum Grayson Stephenson Hutchinson Mitchell and Emery. They and the coaches just need to realise it.

 
Nath-coys
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 08:37
Quote:
Eif Jones
Not sure I agree with his phrase ' Northampton’s academy is producing plenty of talent'.

Painter
Beesley
Marshall
Moon
Coles
Ludlam
Mitchell
Grayson
Stephenson
Hutchinson
Strachan
Dingwall
Emery
Furbank
Mallinder

Our Academy produces.
I agree it hasn't produced a Itoje or Farell for sometime.
But the role of the academy is too produce Prem players, able to make the step up and fill the squad.
Allowing money too be spent on top class players.
All the players above have the ability to be good Prem players, I think the problem is there integration in too the 1st team squad and then match day 23 is poor.

 
tboullem
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Mobbs (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 09:28
I agree with Nath...we do produce but managers under pressure invariably revert to type and are frightened to give youngsters a chance...'any win will do'...etc. That being said, I find it hard to recall any youngsters who have been released only to go on to great things, not Danny Hobbs, not James Cannon, not Joe Gray and whilst the likes of Dave Ward, Tim Visser and Cbris Wyles have done well, none of them were academy products - maybe someone can come up with some more academy products who have reached stardom elsewhere !

 
Bernie's Dad
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Bernie's Dad (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 09:45
Some very good points made with the article. Careful culling at the end of the season is important (and should of been happening over recent years) but as BM suggests, there are only so many players of the level we need available to replace properly. I only hope we have some good conversations underway already...

 
GOD
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 10:07
Very good article and spot on IMHO. A good DOR/Coach has to be astutte, aware of developments, upcoming talent and be both a 'hunter' and farmer. I read somewhere once that in team sport a good coach should be able to spot when a player is just about to go on the downward phase of thier career not when they are on the slide.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 10:08
Quote:
Eif Jones
Not sure I agree with his phrase ' Northampton’s academy is producing plenty of talent'.

Eye eye, Eif's been at the bitter lemon again this new year's or are you just taking the pith?

 
Eif Jones
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 10:46
Its very easy to produce a list of academy players, different matter to produce a list of academy players who are likely to make first team premiership regulars.

 
Nath-coys
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 11:11
Quote:
Eif Jones
Its very easy to produce a list of academy players, different matter to produce a list of academy players who are likely to make first team premiership regulars.

Agreed Eif, very much agreed.

But that list begs the question...

Do we not produce the talent?
Or do we not filter them in too the first team effectively?

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 11:15
Players like Stephenson and Collins would be starting every week if they could stay fit.

 
BrianB
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
BrianB (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 11:25
Add to that Craig who is a mighty fine footballer. Jim was slightly unlucky in that respect as Stephenson would probably have been a regular last season, Craig before that maybe.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 11:52
He is not really singling out players, he was just highlighting what happened to England in 2003. Saying you need to let the old guard go in stages. Singling them out would not be mentioning 4 players and putting a "like" at the start. 4 is not single, single means 1. He singles out Dylan but does not criticise but instead says "at what point do you let him go." That is a valid point.

I think as a former international he knows that a rugby team is not about one player, and in this article he clearly is talking about moulding and evolving a team, quite the opposite to singling out a player.

 
Bradwall Boy
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Bradwall Boy (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 14:18
Quote:
Eif Jones
Its very easy to produce a list of academy players, different matter to produce a list of academy players who are likely to make first team premiership regulars.

Hard to tell if they don't get the chance.

 
tedge
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
tedge (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 15:40
Quote:
Bradwall Boy
Quote:
Eif Jones
Its very easy to produce a list of academy players, different matter to produce a list of academy players who are likely to make first team premiership regulars.

Hard to tell if they don't get the chance.

Exactly. Academy products who stand out as obvious first team material, as opposed to first team prospect (which they all should be) are extremely rare. The majority need quite a lot of chances, preferably repeated selection, to demonstrate their true potential. The main reason they don't get repeated selection is the fear of relegation.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 15:50
For me Alex Mitchel is already ready for prem, you can just see it in him. Trouble is we have two class SA scrummies. After watching him in the A league final I though he was class, we could have saved some cap on Reinach and used it towards a prop. For me the backrow needs someone like Brussow as our backrowers would have learned lots from gibo about lineout and maul defence. But we do not really have a class operator at the breakdown.

 
Saintly Pursuit
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Saintly Pursuit (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 17:33
I'm very impressed with Mitchell playing for the Wanderers and I think that he will be a bright star in the future. What we don't see on the pitch is what sort of "person" he is. It's ok playing with confidence in a winning team but would playing under pressure in a poorly performing team knock back his development? I don't know the answer to the question but I hope that the coaches do and I also hope that they are telling him what to work on and assuring him that his time will come. He will get a first team game sometime this season almost certainly as it's almost inevitable that Groom or Reinach will pick up an injury at some point.

 
Innings
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Innings (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 13:41
It seems that a rugby professional business model that fails to run an academy producing regular promotions into the match day XV is doomed to fail in the age of salary cap. As a Sarries supporter, may I add a few more academy successes to your list of Farrell and Itoje? George, Kruis, Isiekwe, Wray, Spencer, Tompkins, Earle, to name but some first team regulars, even if not always starters, all came through the academy, were played into the first team in stages, getting more and more time and responsibility. It was a bonus that some so seized their chance that they displaced senior players ahead of them in the pecking order.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
St tub
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
St tub (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 16:00
Kind of agree Innings - but Sarries model is always older / experienced mentor and experienced backup - and always in a controlled manner, not just "chuck the kids out there and see"

Borthwick mentored Kruis, with Hargreaves alongside and Botha also capped
Kruis mentored Maro, big Jim / Hargreaves alongside and Skelton as injury cover - all capped
Now Kruis can mentor Isiewke with Maro / Skelton / Day (all capped) alongside

This applies to all the players you've mentioned

Jamie George - Britz and a certain John Smit both alongside as he came through..
Your backrow has always had Joubert, Brown, Jacques Burger, Billy V, Rhodes (and Schalk B more recently) supporting Wray / Fraser

Farrell - Hodgson and Hougaard
Spencer - Wiggy and De Kock
Tomkins - Barrett / Ratuovo / Bosch
Earle - Strettle / AShton / Wyles

Compare and contrast to saints.. who start Ribbans, Ludlum, Hill and an out of position T in the same side..

 
Innings
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Innings (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 16:09
That's rather what I was driving at. Academy players are fitted into a structure that surrounds them with mentors and experience, so that in time, the young become the seniors and mentors in their turn. Every young player should have his mentor outside the formal coaching set-up, not just for playing matters, but in life-style and and personal development. Any successful person, in any walk of life, will have a personal list of two or three mentors who were there with advice, encouragement and wisdom. However, it seems to me that the Saints 23 play their own games roles, ridden by their own anxieties just now, and that affects every aspect of the game plan.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Innings
Re: Brian Moore does not mince his words
Innings (IP Logged)
06 January, 2018 01:58
And if you think Brian Moore was being frank, read Austin Healey in Friday's Daily Telegraph. He really hits it out for Jones and Hartley.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.


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