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Saintalex
Forwards
Saintalex (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 22:39
Are our forwards that bad? Or is the coaching? Have the good players we have had in the last seasons, just a season too far now. Why are are our best players in certain positions being played out of positions?

 
Christoff
Re: Forwards
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
01 January, 2018 23:49
Read the Moore article for answers to some of your questions. Ref the out of position thing, I think the answers to that may be in there too as his article suggests it's a shambles really. Can't disagree there personally. At least it's being exposed so the beginning of a fix may be at hand. Moore mentions a cull, hopefully that will continue in certain areas.

 
Eif Jones
Re: Forwards
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 00:46
Non existent gain-line tackling is the biggest of many big issues for the pack. Its so easy for ball carriers to bust our line, hence the record number of opposition tries. I suspect the number one priority of the new man will be to improve the defence, reduce the points against and you don't have to score as many to win. Dickens should have been doing that prior to Gaffney's arrival but obviously didn't. Sorry but Dickens seems completely out of his depth, first to go of the coaching staff would be my recommendation.

 
ElySaint
Re: Forwards
ElySaint (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 05:50
I think it is a combination of factors. The coaching of the forwards is an issue - annecdotal evidence abounds that the elephantís approach and coaching techniques are outmoded. Perhaps players are just tired of hearing the same thing over and over.

There seems, also, to be a culture factor. In the press (Chron I think) recently Foden has talked of laziness in regards to player and coach attitudes toward fitness, conditioning and skills. He has previously mentioned a culture of finger pointing. If this is true, and why say it if not, it indicates that abdication of responsibility has been the norm for many at the club. At its worst it indicates worryingly low levels of commitment and professionalism. For me, if that doesnít change, nothing else can.

 
St.Sinner
Re: Forwards
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 06:50
ElySaint I agree, It's clear to see that the majority of the team have a lazy attitude towards fitness , conditioning & skills.

When compared to other teams most notably in the forwards, everyone else seems to be bigger built and fitter, in the modern game there's no excuse to be out of shape, not now we have props as mobile as back towers & wingers as big as tanks flying down the wings.
No wonder we don't hit players back in the tackle & always struggle to break the gainline.

We look scrawny and lazy. Thats poor from the coaching side and individually from players, it's not like it's a hobby, it's their job to be an athlete.

Just all points to a poor mental attitude.

We used to be machines, no.1 through to no.23 & proud of it too.
We knew we could out muscle most teams and work them right through to the last minute.
It's sad to see it all end up like this.

 
andysaint
Re: Forwards
andysaint (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 07:55
I think we have a top 6 pack but I do not think it is good enough to get us in the top 4. Being brutally honest several honest the game and other clubs have moved on and our pack is not as good as our league winning side. Without naming names, we are short in 4 positions in the forwards.

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: Forwards
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 08:06
Dickens shouldnít go, heís done wonders for our attack and is only an interim option.

 
SaintsMan87
Re: Forwards
SaintsMan87 (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 09:03
I think itís coaching, we get turned over an awful lot because there is no clear out or competition. When you look around you notice we have 2 of our back row on the wings while groomy and the backs try to clear out. This is the same on defencive rucks.

Same in defence around the ruck, often we have a 10 or 9 as guard defence. Thatís your front rows job. Happens too often so we give away easy yards in defence. Never slow the ball down in the ruck with the back row on the wings. Therefore oppo get quick ball and we never get a set defence.

The guys need drilling for it to be second nature. Doesnít seem it at the moment even when we get the time to set a defencive structure we still look out of position and scrambled.

 
Walks11
Re: Forwards
Walks11 (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 09:21
Quote:
Eif Jones
Non existent gain-line tackling is the biggest of many big issues for the pack. Its so easy for ball carriers to bust our line, hence the record number of opposition tries. I suspect the number one priority of the new man will be to improve the defence, reduce the points against and you don't have to score as many to win. Dickens should have been doing that prior to Gaffney's arrival but obviously didn't. Sorry but Dickens seems completely out of his depth, first to go of the coaching staff would be my recommendation.

You are right in the first part as I have mentioned in previous threads. How you can ascertain Dickens is out of his depth after 2weeks is beyond me and therefore to suggest he is sacked is poor. He wil! Take his place under Gaffney for sure and think there are bigger fish to fry before we consider Dickens removal.

 
Ady32
Re: Forwards
Ady32 (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 10:04
I definitely agree that Dickens should stay!!!!!!

Eifion, you do say some pretty silly things on here, but this has to be one of your best!

Alan Dickens may have demonstrated that he may not ready to be a DOR ( at least yet), but he has also demonstrated overt the last few years that is is a good coach - hopefully with much more to come. We had the best defence under him and we have shown glimpses of decent attack under him. In my view, our biggest issues of the last few years was in attack and our inability to score, but we sort of got away with it because our defence was so mean. But now our defence is virtually non-existent, we are always chasing the game so don't have the patience to play through phases when needed and always look to force it - hence too many chances butchered.

 
Christoff
Re: Forwards
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 10:31
Did on the new year pop obviously. Think Dickens has been our best coach for the last season or so. The un droppable coach needs to be dropped way ahead of him.

 
St.Sinner
Re: Forwards
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 11:31
What do we think the likelyhood of a new DOR retaining individuals in the coaching team is...I'd presume most would bring their own chosen team in?

A new forwards coach is needed we can nearly all agree, but it would be shame to see Dickens go, I think he's a good coach. Dowson is still new to it all but offers that enthusiasm for the Saints and it'd be good to see him kept in the coaching team.

Poor Hopley may have drawn the short straw, he was assigned as defence coach and we have been conceding tries left right and centre , but how much of that is through lack of effort from the team? I do think with the defensive record, and having Gustard in to sort out problems, he would struggle to be retained, although he has now swapped roles with Dowson and become assistant coach. Would be a shame to be promoted from the academy system and then binned in the space of a season.

Guess it all depends on Gaffney's recommendations after his time with us; If he feels we need a completely fresh start, from the top down, or if by removing one 'problem' coach, the atmosphere is positive again and no more changes nessecary. Still though, they will only be recommendations , the new DOR may not pay much attention to them. All of this is immaterial of course until the players decide to work hard for each other again.

 
andysaint
Re: Forwards
andysaint (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 11:41
Jim retained Paul Grayson which was important to help Jim understand the club. However when things started to go awry, Paul was the first to go. I think it would be important to keep Alan on in a role as whilst we need to see academy players come through, the same needs to be said of apprentice coaches.

 
Deesaint
Re: Forwards
Deesaint (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 11:59
My biggest disappointment is the lack of bite at the breakdown. We seem not to want to compete and simply allow the opposition to play. I appreciate many applaud Gibson for his work around the park but his primary role is to be a pain in the backside at the breakdown and on the floor, unfortunately he just doesn't do it. Wood is the same, works hard but too far from the ball at crucial times. Harrison was i thought someone who could really kick on as a 7 but we have played his at 8. A role he doesn't have the physical attributes to sustain; look at Billy V, Waldron, Hughes and the Island guys representing Quins and Tigers.

Quite a few posters commented on Eadie when he arrived and stated that he would fill the gap left by Piccomoles.He doesn't seem to appear in the coaches' top 23. He stands up well in Wanderers games but the A league is a long way off Premiership. What has gone wrong ? why did we recruit him if he cannot challenge for the 8 position.

It does seem that we are attempting to play a forward dominated game with a lightweight mobile pack - Lancaster anyone.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Forwards
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 17:21
Agreed Dee.

 
St tub
Re: Forwards
St tub (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 17:27
Mitch is the real deal - just needs Dorian to pick him (and not off the bench with 10-15 to go with a 30-40 point deficit on the score-board)

You don't pick up the plaudits for hitting 30 rucks or being the guard tackle - no Alex W, no Day, no CC and no KB (40mins fitness or not) has exposed the fact if everyone else is stood out wide or lining up a tackle on a #10 we just get driven backwards at will
Interesting Dalaglio launched such a vociferous assault on Dylan - who was one of the only guys visibly smashing the breakdown and causing problems in a pack that otherwise seemed to have no understanding of line speed and simply knocking down the ball carrier

Those luxury spots were only for Tiny, Courts (in defence) and Samu to do their cameos for the pundits.. everyone else was hit and around the corner.. repeat - as Exeter show, living with that for 80 is close to impossible as long as everyone is doing their job

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Forwards
HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 17:46
Tub I suspect LD got stuck in because he was also a leader domestically and internationally, he knows that in times of peril there is an additional burden to stand up and set the example. Vocally and physically. Dylan may have been hitting some rucks but he also slipped off a bunch of tackles and was visibly not exerting himself on the game.

Hopefully he will rekindle that desire which is so evident for England. I remember the days when Tim Rodber would save himself for England - we don't want that again!

 
BrianB
Re: Forwards
BrianB (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 17:52
Or a chance to get stuck into Dylan . I wouldnt trust anything dayglo has to say - just listen to him commentating on a Wasps game, biased as anything. As I mentioned on another thread, Flatman on channel 5 before the game stated that Dylan was playing his best rugby for Saints this season.

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Forwards
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 10:05
It has to be said that modern coverage has a lot of Biased pundits on show. Not an issue if you have one for each team but IMO they tend to only have one side represented. Flatman and Bayfs are two of the better ones IMO and even LTA is quite fair in most cases and honest enough to admit when he is being very very one eyed.

Still its a million times better than the rubbish we had to put up with on sky.

We have good forwards, we just struggle for balance and dont seem to work as a team except in the lineout.


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