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MESSAGES->author
Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Saint Dom (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 19:00
And so does Danny Care.

Both know what they are talking about...

BBC SPORT



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/99/99_0_1202835632.jpg
*I could agree with you - but then we'd both be wrong...*

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 19:28
Nice veiled dig again Dom, disappointed no Latin this time, thanks for posting article. After reading it, it is very England-centric.


This seems a key quote


"But Jones said Hartley, 31, was "a different person for England". "


I would still have him as England hooker but I am not that bothered about England to be honest.

 
andysaint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
andysaint (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 19:33
Iím torn. As a saints fan Hartleys form is not good enough for the two shirt for England or Saints. As an England fan, I can see that Hartley is important to the England team and he can separate club from country.

 
Deesaint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Deesaint (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 19:47
And somewhere in the quiet suberbs of npton
Not too far from The Gardens
A certain St Ed quietly weeps :-)
What does that Jones chap know about rugby anyway ?

 
Christoff
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 20:31
What do people expect England's management and fellow players to say? They are certain to rally around because......well......."they know what they're talking about", don't they?

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 21:04
Heís a good player just not on form which makes everyone right.

Although personally Iíd start George anyhow

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 06:53
Nice link Dom, it is nice to hear a Coach who's record these last few years puts him in the top echelon of coaches, bringing some realism to the Dylan debate.

Honestly if Jamie George was playing hooker for Saints at the weekend, he would probably have had a bad game.

I have played in games where my team was terrible and that made me try even harder and go into banshee mode, but you know what, in Rugby they man next to you can make it harder or easier for you. If your team is not playing well, you get the ball and immediately get hit, you are on the back foot and blowing harder than normal, this makes tackling harder, passing harder etc etc

Said it before, but it is a collective responsibility every man needs to be on the ball and making the man next to hims life easier.

 
ch saint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
ch saint (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 07:30
Yes there is collective responsibility, but this is our captain, not just another player.
On recent visual evidence he is neither good enough as a player nor captain. Incidentally I take with a pinch of salt comments from players in the England team of which he is the leader. I take far more notice of Dallallio's views, a recognised leader who was commenting on Dylan's performance for us on saturday. I would like to see more effort in all areas of his game.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 07:39
Dallallio might have criticised him but Eddie seems fine and we have only lost what 1 game in 20 under him? All this time with Dyls as captain.

I think he has played well this year, the last two have not been great though, but as I say it is hard to play well in a team that is terrible.

 
riverlodge
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
riverlodge (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 08:13
whatever you think, Jones is excellent value - the comments about Marcus Smith are priceless.

 
Walks11
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Walks11 (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 08:36
Quote:
ch saint
Yes there is collective responsibility, but this is our captain, not just another player.
On recent visual evidence he is neither good enough as a player nor captain. Incidentally I take with a pinch of salt comments from players in the England team of which he is the leader. I take far more notice of Dallallio's views, a recognised leader who was commenting on Dylan's performance for us on saturday. I would like to see more effort in all areas of his game.

Just a thought.. Dylan, not in the best of form and a little low on confidence. When in England camp he is surrounded by people busting a gut to learn and be the best they can, he ups his game accordingly. When at Saints he is surrounded by people low on confidence and according to BF not particularly striving to achieve anything, ends up banging his head against a brick wall continuously. People need to want to be led

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 09:10
You cant start singling out one player when the whole team is playing so badly. OK you have players ike Gibson and Harrison busting a gut but due to the position they play they are often able to receive more ball and make more tackles. As such they can have a bigger effect on the game and stand out better.

Yes Dylan had a bad game but so did at least 10 others. He is still one heck of a player and we need him to help drag the team back to the top. I fully expect Gaffney to lean on him quite a lot to help build confidence but its a whole team effort, not just one man.

When the team returns to form, if a player still falls below the expected standards then its fair game to ask for them to be replaced, until then we have to back the whole squad.

I do however fully expect Mikey to take over from Dylan sooner rather than later. Saints have had a fine history of Hookers and IMO Mikey is next in line to take on that mantle.

 
SaintsMan87
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
SaintsMan87 (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 09:14
Quote:
SaintsAsh
Nice link Dom, it is nice to hear a Coach who's record these last few years puts him in the top echelon of coaches, bringing some realism to the Dylan debate.
Honestly if Jamie George was playing hooker for Saints at the weekend, he would probably have had a bad game.

I have played in games where my team was terrible and that made me try even harder and go into banshee mode, but you know what, in Rugby they man next to you can make it harder or easier for you. If your team is not playing well, you get the ball and immediately get hit, you are on the back foot and blowing harder than normal, this makes tackling harder, passing harder etc etc

Said it before, but it is a collective responsibility every man needs to be on the ball and making the man next to hims life easier.

Totally agree with this, Dylan got slated for cares 1st try. Dylan was rick defence, care broke and went round the outside of him, with his pace Dylan has no chance an you need your second guard to help, unfortunately api left the gap far too wide and wasnít even looking at the situation. This looks bad on Dylan as itís his missed tackle but actually itís an issue between him and api

 
Saint Ted
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 09:47
But just to counter argue that, as first guard he should have been screaming for Api to move in, granted it doesn't always work out that simply

All in all Saturday was a collective balls up but it's games like that when you should be looking at your leader to get you through it, Dylan has been and still is an awesome leader, just for some reason, whats showing on the pitch both leadership wise and playing wise hasn't shone through recently

Hopefully the Gaff can nudge him back to where he should be, comments from the England coach, England players etc are all well and good, but they're talking about the England environment, not the Northampton one

 
TringSaint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
TringSaint (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 10:55
so, what EJ is saying is that despite Dylan playing poorly for Saints, he still wants him for england as he seems to 'up his game' for the national side. If so then what possible motivation will any player challenging for a spot in the national side have when players can not perform for weeks for their clubs but still get picked on their past international performance.

This is exactly what lancaster and jim have been slated for - having undropables.

Its a complete joke - Dylan and all the international players should be picked based on a mix of club and international performance, with the former providing an accurate indication of their current form, and the latter a measure of their ability to play at the required standard for internationals.

Dylan and George should not get picked by england and wales respectively as both have been abject / MIA of late, so based on club form they should not warrant selection and event their last international performances have shown them not to be operating at the highest level.

We need to treat, Dylan, George and all of our other 'stars' as nothing more than numbers in the squad. They have no greater or lesser influence on selection and their past allows for nothing when it comes to team selection for the next club game.

If they show they are good enough then they will get picked, but if they train or play badly then they should be dropped in favour of the guys who are putting their hand up.

We have blown too much smoke up the a***s of these guys for too long and they continue to fail to deliver, so now they need to earn their place, not be gifted it. Only then will we start to perform as a team.

Lastly, i would also not have Dylan as captain until he deserves it - Courtney has been our outstanding player of late and has led the team on a number of occasions so lets have someone who IS performing well lead the side out.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 11:09
Iím in your camp Tring but I guess by inclination we just wonít agree with Dom, Ash, Walks etc.


We can all agree that currently money is an issue for the club. As such I want every single player to represent value, I would be getting someone to help create a value metric like Moneyball.

2016/17 Dylan played in 12 out of 33 games
2015/16 Dylan played in 9 out of 32 games

To my reckoning he was lucky not to be let go by us after one of the last two misdemeanours, and of course he barely misses a game for England. We have shown remarkable loyalty but IMHO he has not shown value the last 2-3 seasons (I donít know his salary but assuming one of the higher earners).

Players come and go, coaches come and go, the only constant is the supporters. The shirt is on loan and no-one is guaranteed it, England captain or not.

Hopefully Gaffney gets some more England-like performances out of him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2018 11:10 by HungryLikeTheWolf.

 
Eif Jones
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 12:09
Let's not forget that, disappointingly, Eddie replaced Dylan after just 45 minutes at Cardiff last season. Not exactly something that would enhance your CV.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Stockers (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 13:39
Yeh, let's all give Dylan a good kicking, come on every one get stuck in!

Or.....

We could, as the Gaffer will, put an arm round his shoulders and say to him,

"C'mon mate, you're better than this, you can play better and be a real leader for the Club. What's holding you back? If you can't do it, just say, be honest. If you can do, it just feckin do it. You know you can. Shows us what you're made of. We want you to succeed!"

I think it's called being supportive?

 
riverlodge
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
riverlodge (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 13:50
Quote:
Eif Jones
Let's not forget that, disappointingly, Eddie replaced Dylan after just 45 minutes at Cardiff last season. Not exactly something that would enhance your CV.

I can rarely see the justification for people having a bite back at your comments, and frequently I see the merit of them. but to ignore the context with your oversimplified comment is pathetic - Hartley had a six week ban (not great in itself, and probably "worse for the CV"?) and was just returning right at the start of the 6N, and one week prior to Cardiff had led England to (another) win over France.

your point is misleading, and trite.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 13:53
Thats obviously what any of us would say to him privately to get performance out of him. But we are posting thoughts here on the club/team/results etc, not constructing 1-on-1 motivational speeches. I am not arrogant enough to assume players read this board or even give a monkeys, I am pretty sure they don't. Bear in mind the facebook Quins match thread had 700 responses, this is quite a small niche message board....

 
TringSaint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
TringSaint (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 14:36
Quote:
Stockers
Yeh, let's all give Dylan a good kicking, come on every one get stuck in!
Or.....

We could, as the Gaffer will, put an arm round his shoulders and say to him,

"C'mon mate, you're better than this, you can play better and be a real leader for the Club. What's holding you back? If you can't do it, just say, be honest. If you can do, it just feckin do it. You know you can. Shows us what you're made of. We want you to succeed!"

I think it's called being supportive?

ok, so lets take this on a little further. Dylan is 31, is a seasoned international with 89 caps, has been and, is again, the club captain, and you think that he needs a gentle talking to in order to motivate him into playing better??

sorry - but i dont buy this. I am a seasoned professional in my job - been doing it 20 years and get paid very well in return. But i can guarantee you that if i was not putting in my all, my boss would NOT put an arm around me and cosset me towards improving my performance. I would be given a performance review, time related targets and a clear indication that if i didnt pull my socks up and start performing then i would get fired.

So, unless professional rugby is now not a performance related sport, i dont buy your approach.
Even more so, that if we do take your approach then how can we and EJ continue to justify retaining Dylan as captain as, in your view, the guy is shot and needs some TLC. The last thing we or any team needs is a captain who is bereft of confidence, down on his game and needing words of motivation in order to get him playing anything near to his potential.

Would you want your captain to be leading both with motivation and performance, or one who just goes about the day job and does little to drive the team forwards? I think we would all want the former.

Nothing personal here - i actually like Dylan and his abrasive side, but thats the thing - that aspect of his game has gone and with it he is not hitting his bootstraps by a country mile. So, until he regains form, why burden the guy further with more pressure of the captaincy both for Saints and England?? (unless we are regressing back to primary school sports day mentality where everyone is a 'winner' and we all get a ribbon!)

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 16:14
On this one I don't agree Tring. Everyone in life needs support, whether they be a young child or OAP.

I also have ploughed my furrow in a results industry, sometimes I have lost my way and have found that a little encouragemet, positive thinking and belief from someone else has helped.

It is ok saying "well you've done this long enough, you're on your own" but that is not managemnet, this is why managers are paid good money to get the most out of their staff. I am sure Alan will be putting some perspective and positivity into our senior players.

 
SaintsMan87
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
SaintsMan87 (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 16:17
Tring, I have to disagree, a good manager will notice what you need, sometimes itís a shouting and a kick in. Sometimes when your low on confidence you might need an arm around you.

A good man manager will notice this and know which one you need. Iíd say if youíd had a couple of off days or a couple of silly mistakes a kick in would be the way but if your throwing everything at it but itís not quite working you might actually need a quiet chat and encouragement.

 
TringSaint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
TringSaint (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 16:35
You see, the thing about stocker's comment is that he says that he needs to re-motivated - this is my issue.
I can accept a dip in form
i can accept a crisis in confidence
Everyone in a results based job, including rugby players, suffer from this from time to time, but a loss of motivation???

He is the club captain, the captain of the national side, a senior operator at all levels and, yet, if all is to be believed, lacks motivation. for what ?
the game
the team

Either way, that is a massive difference to not playing well. And if this is the case, what has he done to address the matter?

Its not as if he is being paid bobbins - he is a senior player so will be on a damn good wedge (more than most of us will ever earn) and, if you believe the rugby sages, should be at the peak of his career. So if this is the net result, then we have a major problem, as his lack of motivation is as big an issue (possibly even bigger) than the other puss-filled elephant that needs lancing / shooting, etc, that everyone seems happy to hang draw and quarter at every opportunity, as the players look to Dylan for motivation, guidance and leadership.

If that is missing then where is the leadership coming from? How will the team crawl out from the hole that they are in if the captain lacks the motivation to deliver?

 
Longers
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Longers (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 16:38
Dylan works well in the England set-up. There he is given freedom to exercise his authority. There he has respect, an ear, an arm around his shoulders. He thrives.

Compare that to Saints, where he seems to struggle. Could it be that he simply gets excluded? It's all very well trying to lead from the front, but if those supposedly following choose to go off in a different direction, what can one do?

It appears to me as though he has been isolated within the Saints set-up for quite some time. I am sure his support of Matfield did not go down well.

He may just be exhausted, mentally rather than physically, by all the sh*t flying around. Including old sods on the touch-line who choose to have a go at him.

 
TringSaint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
TringSaint (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 16:44
Then why agree to become club captain again? If I felt marginalised by my employer or colleagues then I wouldnít accept a senior management position, as it would be a poisoned chalice.

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 18:43
Iíd personally say to him youíre not playing great but at least youíre playing better than Tom Wood.

After we bond over my amazing joke we go on to win the World Cup together.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 18:44
all fair points

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Stockers (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 18:55
Quote:
TringSaint
You see, the thing about stocker's comment is that he says that he needs to re-motivated - this is my issue.
I can accept a dip in form
i can accept a crisis in confidence
Everyone in a results based job, including rugby players, suffer from this from time to time, but a loss of motivation???

He is the club captain, the captain of the national side, a senior operator at all levels and, yet, if all is to be believed, lacks motivation. for what ?
the game
the team

Either way, that is a massive difference to not playing well. And if this is the case, what has he done to address the matter?

Its not as if he is being paid bobbins - he is a senior player so will be on a damn good wedge (more than most of us will ever earn) and, if you believe the rugby sages, should be at the peak of his career. So if this is the net result, then we have a major problem, as his lack of motivation is as big an issue (possibly even bigger) than the other puss-filled elephant that needs lancing / shooting, etc, that everyone seems happy to hang draw and quarter at every opportunity, as the players look to Dylan for motivation, guidance and leadership.

If that is missing then where is the leadership coming from? How will the team crawl out from the hole that they are in if the captain lacks the motivation to deliver?

Did I explicitly say he needs "re-motivating"? No.

Is he suffering from a crisis of confidence? Probably yes.

Why? Perhaps what works for him with England, doesn't work so well at Saints.

Tring, have you never had some self doubt in your career as a "seasoned professional" which you've "been doing it 20 years and get paid very well in return"?

Hasn't anyone, colleague, manager, director, whatever sat you down and had a few words from which you've walked away feeling better and ready to up your game?

If not, you must be Superman!

 
Deesaint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Deesaint (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 19:06
Tring
If you had performed your job to a high level
Then for whatever reason performance dropped
Expecting your Manager to immediately put you on Ďperformance Ď protocols
Would in my mind make him the most useless manager to ever hold the title
Simply removing someone then hoping you get a better replacement - which in work, sport, life, is a lottery would be a road to disaster
Much rather work with Dylan to get him back to where he needs to be
Letís see what happens

 
TringSaint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
TringSaint (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 19:37
In response to the last two posts, yes, I have but i recognised the issue and sought advice before it became critical.
I certainly didnít wait until I was at the point if no return before asking or accepting support.
In fact I often do a debrief with my boss after key meetings to review what worked / didnít work in order to keep improving.
That is a far cry from my boss putting his arm round me and saying there, there when things go wrong.
What is being described is kid glove treatment of highly paid professionals, which I find a little hard to accept.

 
Innings
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Innings (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 13:26
It seems that Brian Moore has identified Saints' present and looming crisis, in his assessment that the coaches have been allowed to have valued past achievements and loyalty to players ahead of the realities of the relentless pressure that requires clubs to look at present performance and contribution without sentimentality. They also have to build towards future success. It was amazing that one Waller broke all records for what seems like a decade-long record of successive starts at prop, but less amazing that the other players in his position upped sticks for playing time elsewhere.

'Un-droppable' players yield droppable managers. Just ask Mallinder and Lancaster. If DH performance level is so vital to England, why is his performance for Saints acceptable? I wrote here many weeks ago that both in terms of personal performance and leadership delivery DH was manifestly part of the problem, not part of the solution. Nothing in DH's contribution has changed since this bad run began, and if anything, his performances have actually deteriorated. Nobody should be surprised if the new broom decides that DH needs time right out of the limelight to prove that he still wants to play for Saints rather than occasionally paying a state visit to Franklins Gardens.

It cannot give anyone pleasure to see a club, any club, struggling on so many levels, but professional sport is just that, a profession. Professionals are paid to get results. That applies to players, coaches, physios, chief executives and tea-trolley pushers,



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
05 January, 2018 00:51
Eddie Jones is always good value for money, he was the same guy who said courtney lawes was not playing that well after he was named player of the month in the premiership and he also said Marcus Smith did not play very well, same guy who said Itoje was a Vauxhall Viva and after 3 weeks was a Rolls Royce so i take some of what he says with a pinch of salt.

As for the issue with Dylan, when Eddie came into the job, Dylan was the right man to be captain and i think he has been a great captain especially for the work he has been said to do off the field. You can't take that away from him.

As for his captaincy on the field, I cannot think of a single game where Dylan's captaincy has single handedly decided the game, lately he is off the field before the 60th minute when the finishers come on and the close games England have played recently, in the six nations against France and Wales, In Australia on the tour in 2016 all those games apart from the first test in Argentina, Dylan has not been on the field in crucial moments of the game.

So while i give him credit for adding a spine to a very spineless England team post 2015, the reason why England is winning has more to do with Itoje coming of age, Billy, Faz, Daly, Courtney becoming a well rounded player and all the other young players especially the lions players in the team. That is why England is winning at the moment, not because Dylan who will be off by 55 minutes is captain.

Eddie will have to make a decision by autumn of 2018 or maybe this summer when Dylan will be going up against Marx and that will be a very one sided match up. Dylan is not playing well enough either at Northampton or with England where he plays okay but not spectacularly to be the starting hooker long term. He can rediscover some form but when you look at Marx, Coles, they are in a different league as players to Dylan and those are the teams England will have to beat in 2019

 
SaintsMan87
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
SaintsMan87 (IP Logged)
05 January, 2018 11:22
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Eddie Jones is always good value for money, he was the same guy who said courtney lawes was not playing that well after he was named player of the month in the premiership and he also said Marcus Smith did not play very well, same guy who said Itoje was a Vauxhall Viva and after 3 weeks was a Rolls Royce so i take some of what he says with a pinch of salt.
As for the issue with Dylan, when Eddie came into the job, Dylan was the right man to be captain and i think he has been a great captain especially for the work he has been said to do off the field. You can't take that away from him.

As for his captaincy on the field, I cannot think of a single game where Dylan's captaincy has single handedly decided the game, lately he is off the field before the 60th minute when the finishers come on and the close games England have played recently, in the six nations against France and Wales, In Australia on the tour in 2016 all those games apart from the first test in Argentina, Dylan has not been on the field in crucial moments of the game.

So while i give him credit for adding a spine to a very spineless England team post 2015, the reason why England is winning has more to do with Itoje coming of age, Billy, Faz, Daly, Courtney becoming a well rounded player and all the other young players especially the lions players in the team. That is why England is winning at the moment, not because Dylan who will be off by 55 minutes is captain.

Eddie will have to make a decision by autumn of 2018 or maybe this summer when Dylan will be going up against Marx and that will be a very one sided match up. Dylan is not playing well enough either at Northampton or with England where he plays okay but not spectacularly to be the starting hooker long term. He can rediscover some form but when you look at Marx, Coles, they are in a different league as players to Dylan and those are the teams England will have to beat in 2019


While I agree with a lot of what your saying I just want to put one or two thought across.

Why does it matter that dyls comes of at 60? Why flog a player when you have another class one to come on fresh? Iím sure roles reversed George would be off after 60 too thatís nothing to do with Dylan

My second point is the first 60 could be more crucial than the last 20, theyíve done all the hard work tenderising, tiring and working the opposition for the guys with finishers to come on and finish the ground work put in by the starters?

Dyls decisions the entire game get us to a point where guys can come on and take the opposition apart and make the score line look good.

 
ThornbySaint
Re: Eddie Jones defends Dylan
ThornbySaint (IP Logged)
05 January, 2018 23:04
Two articles in the papers today.

Austin Healey in the Telegraph knocking Dylan, Stuart Barnes in the Times supportive.

Neither known for their love of Northampton (or vice versa, come to that).

I suppose it just shows how opinion is divided.


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