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MESSAGES->author
Semi final team
Chris Hoddle (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 12:55
Well loads of comments about yesterday but in just 5 days time we have a semi final against bath. I would have hoped that Saints will go all out for the win as the prize money would be most welcome in a fairly poor season.
There were quite a few injuries yesterday so there are bound to be changes.
My suggestion would be this:
15 Harry
14 Ace/Tom Collins
13 Rob Horne
12 Piers Francis
11 Ben Foden
10 Stephen Myler
9 Nic Groome

1 Francois Van Wyke (ma'afu Injured?)
2 Mikey
3 Kieran Brookes
4 Api
5 David Ribbans (if fit)
6 Jamie Gibson
7 Heinz Brussow
8 Tie Harrison

Replacements would include the best of the rest, maybe
James Grayson, Patterson, Corbus, Ford Robinson, Tom Stephenson, Reece Marshall, ace/Tom



http://chrishoddle.smugmug.com/photos/i-TsCHdzK/0/M/i-TsCHdzK-M.gif

 
andysaint
Re: Semi final team
andysaint (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 13:05
Van Wyk Clare Brookes
Api Ribbans
Nutley Ludlam
Harrison
Mitchell Myler
Collins Stephenson Horne Pisi
Mallinder

Bench

Haywood JFR Trinder Moon Eadie Reinach Hutchinson Elliott

 
St.Sinner
Re: Semi final team
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 13:08
Whoever fancies a game really!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Semi final team
Chris Hoddle (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 13:10
I'll pack me boots then as well(Sm128)



http://chrishoddle.smugmug.com/photos/i-TsCHdzK/0/M/i-TsCHdzK-M.gif

 
tedge
Re: Semi final team
tedge (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 13:11
With 3 possible no. 10's in that team they wouldn't need Grayson on the bench

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Semi final team
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 13:58
Myler-Francis needs to happen. We looked much better with 2 distributors in midfield. Luther a good bloke and all, but limited skill set.

 
Nath-coys
Re: Semi final team
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 14:06
Is that Wolfy saying Piers is a 12 and not really a top 10?? winking smiley

 
Walks11
Re: Semi final team
Walks11 (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 14:11
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
Myler-Francis needs to happen. We looked much better with 2 distributors in midfield. Luther a good bloke and all, but limited skill set.

But it will be selected based on Luther being unavailable rather than through choice. I agree though Francis is a 12

 
tboullem
Re: Semi final team
Houghton Saint (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 14:33
All depends if they want to win a trophy or not. If the answer is yes pick the strongest twenty three who want to play, if the answer is no then call up the youngsters and fringe players. Notwithstanding the fact that Bath are playing today ( sun ), they are at home and will pick a strong side.

 
Walks11
Re: Semi final team
Walks11 (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 15:12
Given how abject the best 23 were yesterday Iíd say pick a team in the spirit of the competition and play half and half.

 
tboullem
Re: Semi final team
Houghton Saint (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 15:22
I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment but could somebody please advise me where it is written down that the AW is a development competition ?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Semi final team
Chris Hoddle (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 15:48
Agree Mobbs don't think it is anywhere.
Also a few season ago it was said the prize money was actually more than the HC cup at the time.
If youngsters are to be given a chance there is the rest of the season to do that?



http://chrishoddle.smugmug.com/photos/i-TsCHdzK/0/M/i-TsCHdzK-M.gif

 
Cransley Saint
Re: Semi final team
Cransley Saint (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 16:15
15 Harry
14 Pisi
13 Rob Horne
12 Piers Francis
11 Ben Foden
10 Stephen Myler
9 Cobus

1 Van Wyk
2 Mikey
3 Kieran Brookes
4 Api
5 Paterson
6 Jamie Gibson
7 Ludlum
8 Tiemana

Marshall, Jamal, Clare, Moon, Heinz, Groom, Grayson, Collins

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Semi final team
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 16:27
Quote:
Nath-coys
Is that Wolfy saying Piers is a 12 and not really a top 10?? winking smiley


When Myler came on Francis and Stephen were inter-changing with Stephen often at 12

I believe thatís how Biggar and Piers will play next year

Luther isnít my kind of 12.... modern day I like 2 playmakers

With the way we are set up (not ball carrying up front apart from a couple) we need width on the game to get Horne and others making yards

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Semi final team
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 16:29
I also regret to say I donít like Tom Stephenson currently at 12, doesnít distribute, canít kick, lacks vision / ability to create space for others

Caveat that is currently. I suspect Boyd will bring this into his game, heís a physical talent no doubt about that.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Semi final team
Chris Hoddle (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 16:45
Wolfie,
May well be that Tom is not with us next season he is out of contract and the Gaff has suggested on The Saints show that he has a number of things he has to improve on



http://chrishoddle.smugmug.com/photos/i-TsCHdzK/0/M/i-TsCHdzK-M.gif

 
Nath-coys
Re: Semi final team
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 17:16
Quote:
HungryLikeTheWolf
Quote:
Nath-coys
Is that Wolfy saying Piers is a 12 and not really a top 10?? winking smiley


When Myler came on Francis and Stephen were inter-changing with Stephen often at 12

I believe thatís how Biggar and Piers will play next year

Luther isnít my kind of 12.... modern day I like 2 playmakers

With the way we are set up (not ball carrying up front apart from a couple) we need width on the game to get Horne and others making yards


Was just being bit of a wind up mate.

But I agree with the above totally, depending on circumstances.

I do still think there is a very big place for Big physical centres.
Canes play with one themselves, albeit a kiwi centres core skills are of a very high standard.
But they do play a lot of crash ball off first phase ball, thus creating the width out wide.
Also to effectively play 2 playmakers I think you need a pack consistently going forwards.
For example it usually works for England.
But when Scotland nullified England's pack and most importantly dominated the breakdown the double play making axis struggle to make yards.
And at times like this you could do with a muscular centre to hit the hard lines and try and get your team moving forward. (Dare i say Manu is starting to find some form...)

However I agree I think that's how Saints will go next year and I also think that's why we have signed a massive winger.
Our back 3 next year is going to be BIG I would suggest.
And I think you will see the wingers involves in a lot of first phase ball in the centres Chanel.
And once the gainline is made this is when your two playmakers should really expose the space created.

Fingers crossed it works something like that anyway Wolfy because this has been a dreadful year! Haha

 
twsaint
Re: Semi final team
twsaint (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 17:21
Stevo is going to get chances in the next few weeks to win that contract.

With the injuries he'll come into the squad. Ludlam or Nutley will be in and I hope Tom Collins gets a chance.Ribbans if fit.

Seems a bit retrograde to play Myler, but it's the obvious move after yesterday.

Grayson will be with England Under 20.

Bath have a 5 day turnaround. Despite our dreadful display yesterday we can make the final .

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Semi final team
Chris Hoddle (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 17:50
With Bath just 5 points off a play off place I wonder how they will play it? Rest some of the more influential players in the hope they can get into the top 4 or go with the silverware?



http://chrishoddle.smugmug.com/photos/i-TsCHdzK/0/M/i-TsCHdzK-M.gif

 
Shiraz_Saint
Re: Semi final team
Shiraz_Saint (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 17:57
It's a Mickey Mouse cup - who cares ?

Not me !

 
tedge
Re: Semi final team
tedge (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 18:10
Quote:
Shiraz_Saint
It's a Mickey Mouse cup - who cares ?
Not me !

Noted !

 
twsaint
Re: Semi final team
twsaint (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 18:20
Quote:
Shiraz_Saint
It's a Mickey Mouse cup - who cares ?
Not me !

Thank you for that insightful observation.

 
OlneySaint2
Re: Semi final team
OlneySaint2 (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 18:29
I am absolutely certain that those in charge will, injuries permitting, pick a similar starting team to that which started yesterday. That is the same starting team, give or take, that we have had all season. The team that the coaches think is our strongest team, despite the results and, on occasions, gutless performances. There will be no thought of resting players, creating healthy competition for places or encouraging those squad players who, barring injury, never get a chance. Their thinking will be that the AW Cup is all that this season holds, so we should go all out for it. I can understand their thinking. I just happen to disagree with it.

It is viewed by the rest of the premiership as a development competition, but that perception is not a rule, unwritten or otherwise. It's just that putting out a stronger team to beat opposition fielding squad or even academy players rather devalues the prize if you win it.

For me, I would like to see some of Hill, Nutley, Ludlam, Collins, Clare, Mitchell, Grayson, Painter and Moon involved. These are the sort of players who, I believe, would respond well to being given a chance.

 
northampton_lad
Re: Semi final team
northampton_lad (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 19:53
Is it still the case winners get into Heineken Cup? If so, we should go all out for it

 
OlneySaint2
Re: Semi final team
OlneySaint2 (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 21:16
No.

 
St.Sinner
Re: Semi final team
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
04 March, 2018 22:01
Iíd rather be in the 2nd tier European cup, had enough embarrassments in Europe now.

 
Eif Jones
Re: Semi final team
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 01:58
For example, if Grayson has the potential to be a regular 1st team player then surely he should have been a regular in this competition. Saints don't have many away at 6N time so its easy for the coaches to pick a side full of the regulars. Watching Saracens today who lose quite a few, their younger players will have learnt a lot versus Exeter. Saints have a side who are deservedly in the bottom 3 but the coaches are still blindly choosing the same players when they should be looking to the future. Seems as if the club are going to be in the market to buy in replacements rather than working hard at developing their own. Once upon a time Keith Barwell was asked which would he prefer to see, having six local lads in the 1st team or having one Carlos Spencer, his reply (1-CS) summed up the culture at the Saints at that time, seems as if nothing much has changed. By my arithmetic, yesterday's 23 man squad had 11 SH players plus a further 2 who qualify for England and that's without Hartley. If we are not careful it will become like Soccer. when you play 'spot the Englishmen' whilst watching the top teams play.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Semi final team
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 02:59
Agree with that

 
Deesaint
Re: Semi final team
Deesaint (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 08:15
I donít know about other clubs but it appears to me the investment into the academy has been a little short at Saints
I donít expect the finished article to take the field when opportunity arises but I would expect good solid knowledge of basics
Harryís tackling and field position
Collinís defence
TS passing game
Could go on but the shortcomings are there

Is the problem that we use trainee coaches to manage the academy when we should be installing greater experience to make sure far more rounded/skilful players are produced

 
Nath-coys
Re: Semi final team
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 08:41
Our academy gets a lot more stick than it deserves.

The amount of players we have had come through and represent U20's speaks for itself.

Academy players do not train full time till they have finished school.

They train usually twice a week.

Players will always have strengths and weaknesses, all the way up too International level.

While there could be improvements, there is always room for improvement in sport and I hope they are always looking at ways too improve and make the academy better.

Think there needs to be a more realistic expectation.

I think we have more of a problem with the progression and integration of our younger players to the senior squad.
Than there is a problem with the Academy.

 
tedge
Re: Semi final team
tedge (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 08:50
As said many times get rid of relegation and ring fence the AP and coaches will change their approach overnight

 
tboullem
Re: Semi final team
Houghton Saint (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 09:01
With regard to the league, I see no experimentation until such time that relegation is mathematically impossible. It would be good for the final game of the season to see the likes of Grayson, Mitchell, Ludlam, Moon, Collins and Painter all starting for Saints but I will not hold my breath. The AW is a chance for an element of redemption no matter how some people view the competition. Survival or survival with a trophy ?

 
Nath-coys
Re: Semi final team
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 09:01
Quote:
tedge
As said many times get rid of relegation and ring fence the AP and coaches will change their approach overnight

Couldn't agree more.

Current internationals will get more protection.
young players will get more chances.

 
stjj
Re: Semi final team
stjj (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 09:47
Shiraz Saint
With respect, it may be a Mickey Mouse cup in your rather disparaging opinion, but the benefits of winning for the teams morale and the good prize money are clear. Play the strongest team possible.

 
Casual Saint
Re: Semi final team
Casual Saint (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 10:50
With regard to the success or otherwise of the Academy, it was interesting to note that Sarries played a young lad as a sub on the wing who had started life at ONs and progressed to the Saints Academy. I guess he was not what was needed, surplus to requirements or not up to the mark and let go. I wonder how many other young players have taken a similar route ?



Once a scrum half .... always a scrum half

 
Nath-coys
Re: Semi final team
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 11:00
Quote:
Casual Saint
With regard to the success or otherwise of the Academy, it was interesting to note that Sarries played a young lad as a sub on the wing who had started life at ONs and progressed to the Saints Academy. I guess he was not what was needed, surplus to requirements or not up to the mark and let go. I wonder how many other young players have taken a similar route ?

We offered him a contract.

He turned it down in favour of Studying at Loughborough Uni.

Sarries offered him big money in his 2nd year at Uni I think it was and he accepted.

Not much we can do there.

However one thing I think our academy could do better is retain more players.
We usually only retain 2, which we can get funding for from the RFU.
So we have a whole squad playing for 2 spots.

I know that other clubs keep up to about 6 on, and see how they progress.

Chosing two players at the age of 18, can only be a educated guess.

But obviously it costs more money to keep more players on, whether we have that extra money I do not know.

 
Casual Saint
Re: Semi final team
Casual Saint (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 12:04
Quote:
Nath-coys
Quote:
Casual Saint
With regard to the success or otherwise of the Academy, it was interesting to note that Sarries played a young lad as a sub on the wing who had started life at ONs and progressed to the Saints Academy. I guess he was not what was needed, surplus to requirements or not up to the mark and let go. I wonder how many other young players have taken a similar route ?

We offered him a contract.

He turned it down in favour of Studying at Loughborough Uni.

Sarries offered him big money in his 2nd year at Uni I think it was and he accepted.

Not much we can do there.

However one thing I think our academy could do better is retain more players.
We usually only retain 2, which we can get funding for from the RFU.
So we have a whole squad playing for 2 spots.


I know that other clubs keep up to about 6 on, and see how they progress.

Chosing two players at the age of 18, can only be a educated guess.

But obviously it costs more money to keep more players on, whether we have that extra money I do not know.

Thanks for the update, I always wondered how he slipped through the net.

 
Shiraz_Saint
Re: Semi final team
Shiraz_Saint (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 12:17
Please talk me through the prize money - how much do you think we would get ? is it, in your opinion, enough to fund the raft of squad payers we need to employ to be able to take part in it ?


We are away from home so Bath keep all the gate money.

If you guys like the competition that's great and, for your sakes, I hope we win it. But just kid yourselves it has any relevance in the greater scheme of things.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Semi final team
Chris Hoddle (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 13:10
Shiraz,
you forget that we have to pay off £600000 for a loan and we will have had to pay off Jim. So probably over £3/4 M to find before we can think about players. Surely any prize money going towards this is better?



http://chrishoddle.smugmug.com/photos/i-TsCHdzK/0/M/i-TsCHdzK-M.gif

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Semi final team
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 14:26
We built a premiership winning team on lessons learned in the lower competitions. You have to build from somewhere. You only get a maximum of 4 cup finals a year. Two of them have a lower perceived value than the other two but only a maximum of 4 teams in the league will win a cup. I do think the AW is the lowest of the 4 but its still better than winning nothing.

We should try our best to win, but if there is a 50/50 call between a departing player and someone here next year then pick the player for the future.

 
Walks11
Re: Semi final team
Walks11 (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 15:10
Quote:
Casual Saint
Quote:
Nath-coys
Quote:
Casual Saint
With regard to the success or otherwise of the Academy, it was interesting to note that Sarries played a young lad as a sub on the wing who had started life at ONs and progressed to the Saints Academy. I guess he was not what was needed, surplus to requirements or not up to the mark and let go. I wonder how many other young players have taken a similar route ?

We offered him a contract.

He turned it down in favour of Studying at Loughborough Uni.

Sarries offered him big money in his 2nd year at Uni I think it was and he accepted.

Not much we can do there.

However one thing I think our academy could do better is retain more players.
We usually only retain 2, which we can get funding for from the RFU.
So we have a whole squad playing for 2 spots.


I know that other clubs keep up to about 6 on, and see how they progress.

Chosing two players at the age of 18, can only be a educated guess.

But obviously it costs more money to keep more players on, whether we have that extra money I do not know.

Thanks for the update, I always wondered how he slipped through the net.

I guess the difference is other sides senior squad contain 6 as you say, ours is 2 but the difference made up with what are proving to be journeymen older players. Sounds like a false economy to me and risk averse. We have preferred the luxury of a fatter squad in terms of experience as opposed to taking a risk the with the academy. That dynamic may well change under Boyd

 
twsaint
Re: Semi final team
twsaint (IP Logged)
05 March, 2018 17:10
Come on chaps get your facts right. Our Senior Academy has 13 players in (14 at the start of the season). We had a small intake this year , 3...Strachan, Dingwell and Ryan,

Only 4 clubs have more . There is a Salary cap on the academy. I think £200,000

This year's under 18s had a disappointing league season although there's talent there. 2 are in the England under 18 squad with another injured. One is in the Scotland under 20 squad.

Senior squad players are not being taken on the expense of 18 year olds.Very few make it into the first team squad at any club. It's a major decision at 18 , it's got to be realistic.

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: Semi final team
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
06 March, 2018 08:54
Stephenson should be the first name on the list. We all remember the player he was before his injuries. That class does not disappear.


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