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SaintsAsh
Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 15:46
I think most of us would agree that here in the NH we have to play rugger a little different, lots of mud, different refs etc.

But I keep hearing that we cannot play SH rugger in the NH and all we need to do is look at Blackadder as an example.

It got me thinking, Bath are playing a NH style game and it is not working, would they have been worse or better if Todd had Bath playing more SH style rugger. Maybe they just don't have the players for it, or maybe the refs won't allow it, or maybe the mud will prevent it.

Thoughts?

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 15:58
Blackadder didnít achieve a whole amount in Canterbury despite inheriting the greatest foundations in global club rugby, Iím just not sure heís very good

That aside Johann is doing very well at Glaws. Joe Schmidt was amazing for Leinster and now for Ireland. Pivac is doing brilliant things at Scarlets. Pat Lam did v well at Connacht but he knew our game. Iím not sure we have much more to go on from the elite level of coaches. Gatland has won a lot. Hansen did quite well? Smudger did well but wasnít here long enough to learn about our game and adapt.


I donít think there is a yes or no, progressive bright coaches seem to succeed but others donít. Being smart enough to be surrounded with help seems to be important.

 
Walks11
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Walks11 (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 16:01
Blackadder hasnít brought in any coaches and has inherited Booth &co. They have a lot of skilful players too

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 16:04
interesting, Pivac seems to have implemented a SH style quite well. Even with the rain/mud they have to contend with.

 
Nath-coys
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Nath-coys (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 16:04
Ever time I've watched them this season they have looked very very one dimensional.

When they do play they do look dangerous and have the players too do it.
But they seem to want to rely on that heavy pack mullering people upfront.

HLTW might be able to give a better idea of how Crusaders played before Blackadder came over here!?

What has most impressed me about Boyd is the way he speaks about making sure he knows the differences, but at the same time he makes it known he will be putting his stamp on things and the way we play.
I actually think our Pack will try to play somewhat like it did yesterday, there is no doubt the guys needed to front up at scrum time and stop being penalty machines.
That generally seems to have happened.
And with a bit more power in the engine room from the second row I think we will look to limit penalties on oppo ball and get the ball away fairly quickly on our ball.
Signings suggest we aren't going too suddenly try and start eking out pens at every scrum.
If we bring in a Bigger, ball carrying Number 8, and Eadie kicks on as well. I think we are fairly set in the forwards.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 16:13
This is a good summary from kiwi rugby fanzine


ďBlackadder left New Zealand rugby in 2001 and returned to the scene only in 2008 when he took the Tasman coaching job. The fledgling union would take a number of years to find its feet, but Blackadderís already seemed to be itchy. The Crusaders job beckoned, the Robbie Deans era was coming to a close (and would ultimately end in another title triumph, led by Blackadder clone Reuben Thorne) and Blackadder was adjudged the man for the job. Everything pointed to a continued run of success for the most successful team in Super Rugby history.

Eight seasons later, the Crusaders are still waiting to win another title. They have come close, and they have only once missed the playoffs (in 2015), but it never felt like it was enough Ė for the fans, for the franchise, or for the coach.

Throughout his reign Blackadder faced criticism for being too conservative, for developing a robotic structure that pulverised teams more than it ever electrified fans; for relying too much on substance over style. Supporters have long wondered why he wasnít able to lead the team to a championship, given the quality of players at his disposal. When you can boast a team with the likes of Corey Flynn, Crockett, Andy Ellis, Dan Carter, Kieran Read, Sam Whitelock, and R H McCaw, it is probably a fair question Ė or is it?Ē

 
ajack
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
ajack (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 16:45
As far as I am aware no coach has succeeded everywhere they have been and some have had success but got stale over time, sometimes a new face changes things for the better, sometimes for the worse, nothing is guaranteed. If any one style or tactic always worked then everyone would use it and so it could no longer work, most coaches and indeed clubs have that golden spell but sooner or later it ends.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 16:50
Alex Ferguson always adapted, changing his assistant every 3 years or so which kept ideas fresh.... that approach provides the longevity.

 
ajack
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
ajack (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 17:07
Ferguson did succeed over a long period of time with different groups of players but he was within a match of being fired early on if my memory is correct. But that is a different sport and a few years ago now, try naming five that have done it at rugby.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 17:10
Schmidt has done I think

Gatland always competing over a long period

Steve Hansen


smaller sample with rugby but yeah itís not easy

 
andysaint
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
andysaint (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 17:19
I think Bath issues go further than Blackadder and the rest of the coaches. For me, you play to your players best abilities rather than a specific NH/SH style. It is far more efficient to adapt the game to the players you have rather than adapting the players to the game you want to play.

 
MarchingIn
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 19:52
Quote:
Nath-coys
I actually think our Pack will try to play somewhat like it did yesterday, there is no doubt the guys needed to front up at scrum time and stop being penalty machines.
That generally seems to have happened.

One swallow doesn't make a spring as they say.

The way the referee controlled the game was a big part of it IMO, he took the "leave it 2!" approach, warning both sides when they were going to be pinged if they persisted; Saints listened to him and generally played him well. A ref more like Barnes would have left them to their own devices more, and probably given both sides more penalties, but we'd have come off worse as a lot of the warnings were for defensive disruption and we spent a lot more time defending.

 
Saint Wilf
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Saint Wilf (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 21:17
Lets not get too excited, Tigers gifted us the game through the combination of an abysmal lineout, creaking scrum and generally sloppy play.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 21:45
Doesnít that mean we were just the better side?

 
Eif Jones
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 01:09
I'm sure that Jon Joseph would have preferred to play on the apparent (SaintsAsh) muddy New Stradey pitch rather than the nonsense Saracens pitch which meant his poor ankle had nowhere to go. Too many of these plastic pitches around these days, glad that New Stradey has stayed as grass.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 04:56
Quote:
Eif Jones
I'm sure that Jon Joseph would have preferred to play on the apparent (SaintsAsh) muddy New Stradey pitch rather than the nonsense Saracens pitch which meant his poor ankle had nowhere to go. Too many of these plastic pitches around these days, glad that New Stradey has stayed as grass.

Me too, not saying that the pitch is bad or always muddy. But it rains a lot in the UK and Wales has it's fair share and with rain comes mud. And they seem to still be able to play decent rugger even in the mud.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
Matthew (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 22:38
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Doesnít that mean we were just the better side?

Most match stats (pretty much all except the scoreline!) suggest we should have been walloped:

[www.espn.co.uk]



ACTUAL TRAINING FOOTAGE FROM
BEHIND THE SCENES AT SARACENS:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37800000/Scrooge-McDuck-gif-mickey-and-friends-37815657-245-188.gif

 
ajack
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
ajack (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:16
They are some amazing stats.

 
tedge
Re: Northern Hem versus Southern Hem
tedge (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 17:01
Just goes to show stats other than the final score can prove or disprove nothing in particular.


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