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Former Hollywood Saint
Israel Folau
17 April, 2018 08:27
I was reading an article about Israel Folau this morning and that he was unhappy with Rugby Australia after the fallout of his latest views on homosexuals etc. He has mentioned that as his contract is coming to an end, he is looking both in Australia and abroad for opportunities.

Whilst being very talented and a game changer, he clearly is very religious and has some very bold views on things (some may argue outdated too).

So the question is: Would you be happy seeing him in a hypothetical Saints shirt?

Take away the salary cap argument and all that, but I'm wondering if - given the opportunity - I would want to see him at Saints or not. I mean, free speech is free speech, but maybe there are some views you keep to yourself (I know he was actually answering a question set to him on Twatter). In my view, I would rather not see him here, talented as he is. He would just bring too much negativity and baggage with him.

Thoughts?





FHS

 
SuffolkSaint
Re: Israel Folau
SuffolkSaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 08:39
As good as he is probably the last thing that Saints need now is a disruptive sh*t storm!

Priority for next season is to get every one pulling in the same direction and rebuilding spirit and culture.

Once we have firm foundations again, then you can take a risk or two on the odd difficult player in the hope that the strength of the unit will handle it.

 
StGonne
Re: Israel Folau
StGonne (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 08:46
I would absolutely love to have him. Heíd add so much to the attack and is a phenomenal player. His views are his own and he has (most of the time) voiced them respectfully. I donít necessarily agree with some of the stuff that he believes in, but I donít see why having a different opinion on some matters should mean we turn our nose up at him. First and foremost we are a rugby club and he is an outstanding rugby player.

 
HerbieSaint
Re: Israel Folau
HerbieSaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 08:47
No thanks, don't want the dreadful homophobe anywhere near our club.

The right to free speech doesn't protect you from the consequences of what you say.

 
St.Sinner
Re: Israel Folau
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 08:52
Iíd snap him up without hesitation if he was interested in signing for us!

We are after all, a rugby club.
Not a political party.

He is entitled to his beliefs.
if you donít want to hear them, donít ask him. Quite simple!

If gay people want to get married, that is okay. If he thinks thatís wrong, that is okay.

Until he starts gatecrashing same sex marriages and preaching from the streets homophonic messages, then what is the problem. He is just as entitled to his view as everyone else is theirs. Freedom of speech seems to only work one way in this world. We donít all have to agree with each other or the minorities out of fear of being critisised.

Live and let live. We should respect his upbringing and views just as much as anyone elseís. Nor should he have to lie when asked a question just to appease people. What he said was not malicious, itís clear to see thatís his genuine belief.

As long as he continues to be a quality rugby player. Iíd love to see him at FG.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 09:03
He posted on his Instagram page - which is open social media - that gay people will go to hell unless they repent their sins.

That isnít quietly having a view and frankly it smacks of someone in the closet anyway.

No thanks.

 
fair_weather_fan
Re: Israel Folau
fair_weather_fan (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 09:07
The free speech argument is ok but I imagine a few players might be offended by his views now they know what they are. So that could be a problem.

 
tedge
Re: Israel Folau
tedge (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 09:07
Great player - shame we can't afford him

 
Casual Saint
Re: Israel Folau
Casual Saint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 09:25
Fantastic player, but not what the club needs right now.



Once a scrum half .... always a scrum half

 
Saint Matt
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Matt (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 09:43
A million times no.

Saying gay people will go to hell is not quietly having his own view, its proving he's a homophobic idiot. I wouldn't want him wearing a Saints shirt even if he was guaranteed to score 4 tires every game.

I also feel the very fact we're having this debate shows how far we've still got to come on gay rights, would this thread exist if he'd said black people should go to hell? what about Jews?

No no and no

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
Stockers (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:12
No

 
Dick Dastardly
Re: Israel Folau
Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:14
He is not simply a ďhomophobic idiotĒ as sadly he was expressing a view shared by a large part of the worlds population based on their religious beliefs. No doubt we have and continue to employ players with similar beliefs. He was clearly ill-advised to express his view on social media but perhaps it is the Religous Institutions that should assist their believers by clarifying their doctrines on this and other allied matters.

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: Israel Folau
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:17
Quote:
St.Sinner
Iíd snap him up without hesitation if he was interested in signing for us!
We are after all, a rugby club.
Not a political party.

He is entitled to his beliefs.
if you donít want to hear them, donít ask him. Quite simple!

If gay people want to get married, that is okay. If he thinks thatís wrong, that is okay.

Until he starts gatecrashing same sex marriages and preaching from the streets homophonic messages, then what is the problem. He is just as entitled to his view as everyone else is theirs. Freedom of speech seems to only work one way in this world. We donít all have to agree with each other or the minorities out of fear of being critisised.



Live and let live. We should respect his upbringing and views just as much as anyone elseís. Nor should he have to lie when asked a question just to appease people. What he said was not malicious, itís clear to see thatís his genuine belief.

As long as he continues to be a quality rugby player. Iíd love to see him at FG.

Well said Sinner. To live in a free country is to have freedom of thought and expression.

 
StGonne
Re: Israel Folau
StGonne (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:18
Quote:
Saint Matt
A million times no.
Saying gay people will go to hell is not quietly having his own view, its proving he's a homophobic idiot. I wouldn't want him wearing a Saints shirt even if he was guaranteed to score 4 tires every game.

I also feel the very fact we're having this debate shows how far we've still got to come on gay rights, would this thread exist if he'd said black people should go to hell? what about Jews?

No no and no

It isn't the same though. He is of the, albeit outdated view, that being gay is a choice and his deeply conservative religious upbringing has lead him to believe this. It's not that he believes that the people are bad, it's that he believes their actions are bad.

We've had deeply religious members of this club before, I highly doubt their view towards homosexuality was any different.

We are a rugby club, If he promises to keep his personal views to himself, i would welcome a player of his calibre.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:18
people can believe what they like privately as long as it doesnít affect others. Iím not sure I support inherited belief systems, itís a form of indoctrination especially of children and sometimes against the notion of free will

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:22
Quote:
StGonne
Quote:
Saint Matt
A million times no.
Saying gay people will go to hell is not quietly having his own view, its proving he's a homophobic idiot. I wouldn't want him wearing a Saints shirt even if he was guaranteed to score 4 tires every game.

I also feel the very fact we're having this debate shows how far we've still got to come on gay rights, would this thread exist if he'd said black people should go to hell? what about Jews?

No no and no

It isn't the same though. He is of the, albeit outdated view, that being gay is a choice and his deeply conservative religious upbringing has lead him to believe this. It's not that he believes that the people are bad, it's that he believes their actions are bad.

We've had deeply religious members of this club before, I highly doubt their view towards homosexuality was any different.

We are a rugby club, If he promises to keep his personal views to himself, i would welcome a player of his calibre.



As you say, upbringing ie inherited. At some point people need to think for themselves, I know a reverend who is very pro gay rights so Iím not sure that argument stacks up. Otherwise we would all be living with 2000 year old social values. Thinking gay people shouldnít be married or have kids is one step, saying they all go to hell is pretty extreme.


Iím very pro free speech, canít stand pc but this moves towards radical hate speech IMHO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/04/2018 10:23 by Wilson Pickett.

 
Walks11
Re: Israel Folau
Walks11 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:24
Itís a fine line isnít. A rugby club (or any professional sporting club) runs a risk of employing an individual who has strong views that may offend either supporters or sponsors. Itís a similar scenario (for different reasons) to the Irish lads, Jackson & Oldroyd. Do you want to risk losing supporters and financial investors for a player. Is that player going to bring you more than you risk losing. I would argue Folau is good enough to potentially do that. I think any Ďfamilyí club as we like to badge ourselves we would steer clear.

 
Stevie Myler's right boot
Re: Israel Folau
17 April, 2018 10:25
Immaterial of his views we donít need George Northís rucksack. All it would achieve is spending a load of cash to put a big blocker in front of Harryís development. Now if he was a quality 8 it would be a different question

 
Saint Matt
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Matt (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:32
Quote:
StGonne
Quote:
Saint Matt
A million times no.
Saying gay people will go to hell is not quietly having his own view, its proving he's a homophobic idiot. I wouldn't want him wearing a Saints shirt even if he was guaranteed to score 4 tires every game.

I also feel the very fact we're having this debate shows how far we've still got to come on gay rights, would this thread exist if he'd said black people should go to hell? what about Jews?

No no and no

...
We've had deeply religious members of this club before, I highly doubt their view towards homosexuality was any different..


You may well be right, but the fact we don't know for certain proves the point entirely. Once Falau decided to post his views on a public platform, line crossed for me.

Imagine the other side of the coin - 13,500 people at FG, statistically a number of them will be gay, how do you think they would feel seeing a Saints player who had openly said they should go to hell?

 
Saint Ted
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:33
I'm just going to put the context of this up for those that don't know the whole story as the context around it helps understand a little more about the guy. I think that some may believe that he just whacked up on instagram/twitter that homosexuals should burn in hell

This all started when the Australians were voting on gay marriage, at that point Folau said...

'I love and respect all people for who they are and their opinions, but personally, I will not support gay marriage'

Now, Folau is a deeply religious man, his Twitter feed is predominantly bible quotes and people seem to ask him a lot of questions about what god thinks about x,y,z

Which in turn leads to the post that has lead to this situation. Somebody asked him what Gods views were on homosexuals, to which Folau replied with a quote from a docterine, that they will burn in hell unless they repent their sins

So he was quoting and didn't actually say that was his belief, although granted as his religion is so important to him, it would imply that is also his belief

 
Guildford Saint
Re: Israel Folau
Guildford Saint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:45
Believing these things privately, and saying them publicly are two different things. For that reason, no I would not want him at Saints.

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Israel Folau
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:48
I would say no thank you.

Whatever the rights or wrongs (I believe he is wrong in what he believes) from a purely Rugby perspective its making the same mistake we have many times before. A marquee signing should be used to add a little sparkle IF you have more cash left over having spent the cap on an excellent team (Even though i think players outside the cap is stupid). We should invest in a good core of English players who will be in it for the long haul and only then think about spending money we cant afford on a single player.

 
twsaint
Re: Israel Folau
twsaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 11:01
It's easy to trot out the libertarian view of freedom of speech.Freedom of speech should not be an absolute right. It comes with responsibilities.Sometimes so-called freedom of speech only serves to silence and exclude others.

Folau is a role model .The rugby world , as it should in modern society, embraces inclusion . Folau has said and written things and then defended his position.Why would he quote from the bible (which he tells us he reads every day) if he didn't believe it?

 
Saint Ted
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 11:06
I don't disagree TWS, it's just context, don't get me wrong I don't for one second share his belief, but context can be helpful

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 11:10
Quote:
twsaint
It's easy to trot out the libertarian view of freedom of speech.Freedom of speech should not be an absolute right. It comes with responsibilities.Sometimes so-called freedom of speech only serves to silence and exclude others.
Folau is a role model .The rugby world , as it should in modern society, embraces inclusion . Folau has said and written things and then defended his position.Why would he quote from the bible (which he tells us he reads every day) if he didn't believe it?


There is a balance because pc also silences and excludes others.


Ted - He should have said ďplease refer to the scriptureĒ. Letís not pretend that he didnít know the implications of what he wrote.

 
Saint Ted
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 11:18
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Quote:
twsaint
It's easy to trot out the libertarian view of freedom of speech.Freedom of speech should not be an absolute right. It comes with responsibilities.Sometimes so-called freedom of speech only serves to silence and exclude others.
Folau is a role model .The rugby world , as it should in modern society, embraces inclusion . Folau has said and written things and then defended his position.Why would he quote from the bible (which he tells us he reads every day) if he didn't believe it?


There is a balance because pc also silences and excludes others.


Ted - He should have said ďplease refer to the scriptureĒ. Letís not pretend that he didnít know the implications of what he wrote.

Oh, you won't get any argument from me on that one, what he even wrote wasn't a direct quote from the bible, I think the closet you get to it is Jude 7

"...just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire"

He knew what he was doing, to a degree, it's just that to a certain extent when somebody who has such ingrained belief, it's hard to see outside of that

I'm not convinced he's a malicious man, just more a little too engrained in his beliefs

 
SaintsEdward
Re: Israel Folau
SaintsEdward (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 11:20
Folau is a difficult one. Do i want that sort talent in a Saints shirt? Yes. Do I want our club associated with the comments hes made? No.

That said, although I completely disagree with what he's said and there's no place for it in rugby or life, I sort of respect him for having values and standing by them. Much like religion on the whole, not for me, but can respect the discipline and values people strictly abide to.

 
JRM
Re: Israel Folau
JRM (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 11:51
Pig roast would have to go.(Sm102)

 
StMartin
Re: Israel Folau
StMartin (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:02
No thank you - would reflect very poorly on the club in my opinion.

He may be an amazing rugby player, but as a role model for kids he is not someone I'd want connected to the club.

 
TringSaint
Re: Israel Folau
TringSaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:04
personal views are just that - person, and should remain so.

The fact that he morally believes that same sex relationships are wrong and will result in said participants going to hell is very outdated, but who am i to tell him that his personal beliefs are wrong (even if i absolutely think that they are).

Thing is, when you hold such beliefs, you keep them to yourself or with like-minded individuals, not spray them over the internet via social media - that is both crass and stupid and he deserves to be getting the flak that is / has come his way.

sonny-bill is a practicing muslim, but you dont hear him making the same comments (despite his religious beliefs likely being in conflict with same sex relationships) - its all about class, and Folau has demonstrated that he has none.

So, bring him here? No thanks - dont want to be knwn as a bunch of bigots!

 
Saint Ted
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:07
Article form the rugby paper...

Full Article

Israel Folau escapes sanction by ARU for comments about gay community
Posted on April 17, 2018 by admin in Featured, International Rugby, Latest News, Test Rugby with 0 Comments

By Adam Ellis

The Australia Rugby Union has confirmed it will not be reprimanding Israel Folau for his comments on his Instagram profile about gay people.

The Wallabies full-back came under fire earlier this month when he replied to a userís question about Godís plan for gay people by saying, ĎhellÖ unless they repent for their sins and turn to Godí. But after discussions with the player, ARU chief executive Raelene Castle confirmed no punishment would be enforced against the Waratahs back.

ďIsrael clearly articulated his religious beliefs and why his faith is important to him, and has provided context behind his social media comment,Ē Castle said.

ďIn his own words, Israel said that he did not intend to upset people intentionally or bring hurt to the game. We accept Israelís position.Ē

This follows Folau going public with for the first time to address accusations of bigotry and homophobia, by revealing his views in a column for PlayersVoice.

In the column, the 29-year-old drops the bombshell that in a meeting with Castle and Waratahs general manager Andrew Hore, he said he was willing to walk away from his contract if they felt his position as a Wallaby international with his views had made for an untenable situation.

ďDuring the meeting I told them it was never my intention to hurt anyone with the Instagram comment, but that I could never shy away from who I am, or what I believe,Ē Folau wrote.

ďThey explained their position and talked about external pressure from the media, sponsors and different parts of the community, which I understand.

ďAfter weíd all talked, I told Raelene if she felt the situation had become untenable Ė that I was hurting Rugby Australia, its sponsors and the Australian rugby community to such a degree that things couldnít be worked through Ė I would walk away from my contract, immediately.

ďI feel I need to explain this part in more detail because at no stage over the past two weeks have I wanted that to happen.

ďThere have been things written about me angling to get a release from my Rugby Australia deal to pursue an NRL contract. That simply isnít true. There have been rugby offers from the UK, Europe and Japan that are way above anything I could earn in Australia.Ē

Folauís contract with the ARU and Waratahs expires in 2019 and it has been suggested a three-year extension had been in the works for the international.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
Neil-H (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:15
Posted somewhere else and shows him as a bit hypercritical

Livicitus 19:28

"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD"

Seen all his tattoos?

 
sainttim
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Tim (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:24
No.

I am not disputing ones rights to hold such a view. But we are a small company with a wide customer base and a large media reach.

Having someone with such published views is not how you get team harmony. There may be players that are gay, players will certainly have friends or family who are gay. The supporter base will include a huge number likewise.

Do you want to alienate that part of your business for the want of one exceptional player.

Look at how divisive it was having Krige at Saints?

 
TringSaint
Re: Israel Folau
TringSaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:24
this article smacks of the ARU bottling it under pressure and fear of losing folau to league or overseas. To state that he explained his beliefs and wee understood the context and thats all now ok is basically saying that so long as you can substantiate your views, no matter how extreme, you will escape sensure.

in terms of folau, he could have refused to respond to the question - he was not forced to answer it, but did so of his own free will.

What will happen if another top player makes sexist remarks or racist remarks or whatever, but can substantiate that the remarks are as a result of their profound, deep-seated beliefs?? Will they get let off eith a slap on the wrist and a 30 day twitter suspension?

For me, folau should have been censured in a similar way to basteraud and solomona in that they have behaved in a manner contrary to the rules and ethics of the game, bringing it and themselves into disrepute.

ARU have now painted themselves into a corner and will find it hard to censure anyone who blurts a load of bile onto social media.

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: Israel Folau
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:35
Quote:
TringSaint
personal views are just that - person, and should remain so.
The fact that he morally believes that same sex relationships are wrong and will result in said participants going to hell is very outdated, but who am i to tell him that his personal beliefs are wrong (even if i absolutely think that they are).

Thing is, when you hold such beliefs, you keep them to yourself or with like-minded individuals, not spray them over the internet via social media - that is both crass and stupid and he deserves to be getting the flak that is / has come his way.

sonny-bill is a practicing muslim, but you dont hear him making the same comments (despite his religious beliefs likely being in conflict with same sex relationships) - its all about class, and Folau has demonstrated that he has none.


So, bring him here? No thanks - dont want to be knwn as a bunch of bigots!

So that makes sense then, if you condemn homosexuality you must keep it to yourself, if you celebrate it then it is 'classy' to broadcast it via social media. A modern liberal attitude.
I am pleased when people have different opinions to mine, and I defend their right to express them freely.
I do not want my grandchildren to celebrate or accept homosexuality until they are mature enough to study the issue.

 
lost in duston
Re: Israel Folau
lost in duston (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 13:31
ĎSo that makes sense then, if you condemn homosexuality you must keep it to yourself, if you celebrate it then it is 'classy' to broadcast it via social media. A modern liberal attitude.
I am pleased when people have different opinions to mine, and I defend their right to express them freely.
I do not want my grandchildren to celebrate or accept homosexuality until they are mature enough to study the issueí

Iíd infer from that homophobia is acceptable

Have I misunderstood?

 
TringSaint
Re: Israel Folau
TringSaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 14:39
Quote:
Hantsaintsrus4
Quote:
TringSaint
personal views are just that - person, and should remain so.
The fact that he morally believes that same sex relationships are wrong and will result in said participants going to hell is very outdated, but who am i to tell him that his personal beliefs are wrong (even if i absolutely think that they are).

Thing is, when you hold such beliefs, you keep them to yourself or with like-minded individuals, not spray them over the internet via social media - that is both crass and stupid and he deserves to be getting the flak that is / has come his way.

sonny-bill is a practicing muslim, but you dont hear him making the same comments (despite his religious beliefs likely being in conflict with same sex relationships) - its all about class, and Folau has demonstrated that he has none.


So, bring him here? No thanks - dont want to be knwn as a bunch of bigots!

So that makes sense then, if you condemn homosexuality you must keep it to yourself, if you celebrate it then it is 'classy' to broadcast it via social media. A modern liberal attitude.
I am pleased when people have different opinions to mine, and I defend their right to express them freely.
I do not want my grandchildren to celebrate or accept homosexuality until they are mature enough to study the issue.

not quite the same thing - saying that homosexuals should burn in hell is not the same as a gay couple celebrating their same sex relationship. Equally, you dont have to read their posts (unless you are trolling their facebook pages or whatever) and you can bring up your children and grandchildren to understand that the world is made up of all-sorts and there is no right or wrong. Far better to do that than to have the awkward question posed by one of them as to why two men are kissing!!

The dividing line here is posting a comment in acknowledgement of something is vastly different to posting a comment condemning something.

people in the public eye need to watch what they say and if they hold beliefs which may not be mainstream, best not to air them in public

I personally dont care what my kid's orientations are / will be, so long as they are safe and happy

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: Israel Folau
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 14:52
Tring, the difference between us is I encourage others to have opinions different to mine, mainstream or not,and express them.
The views of homosexuality vary from abhorrence to tolerance to acceptance to celebration. It is not for me to tell anyone what to think or say or communicate.
If he is available to join our club consideration should be taken. I suggest we have other priorities than that which he offers.

 
MarchingIn
Re: Israel Folau
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 14:53
I am an atheist, a secularist, and a liberal. I am very comfortably straight and quite happy to (for example) drink in a gay bar with my gay friends. However, I don't subscribe to this ultra-PC view that progressive liberalism is the only acceptable moral stance and should dictate what religious beliefs are "allowed".

As long as somebody is respectful and not advocating the oppression of homosexuals, then I am quite inclined to leave their beliefs to them. I think the acid test I would put to him is "would you happily play in a side with openly gay team mates?" if the answer is yes, then without going through what he has said in detail then yes, I would have him at Saints.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
desbralass (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 15:13
I imagine a scenario whereby he says more on this subject and upsets more people..he will eventually become unemployable.Lots of clubs wouldn't touch him with a bargepole for fear that his views would upset many people,including sponsors.Money doesn't just talk,it shouts.So as talented as he is,no thank you.Do any of us know how many gay men are connected to Saints? I'm talking players,their family members,coaches,support staff etc.Would they be happy having Folau at the club?

Same sex marriage is lawful in Britain,so we must abide by by those laws.If we spout anti gay stuff in public or on social media,are we not breaking the law? If any player did this,they would be bringing the club and rugby into disrepute.It takes some people a lot of courage to "come out" and that saddens me..that they need to declare their sexuality.So no thank you to us having this undoubtedly talented player at Saints.

Just my take on the subject.



Bridesmaids no more.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
skybluesaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 15:38
Being a decent human being is nothing to do with politics, free speech, freedom of religion, or other apologies for an intolerant bigot. The same goes for the Irish lads who treated one young woman with contempt and showed by their messages to each other that they had the same attitude towards young women in general. They might be great players, but I would not want the club I support to be tainted by their presence. Can you imagine the feelings of other players sharing a dressing room with them, or of supporters who know how they would be regarded or even treated by the player in question? Having an opinion is fine ("I don't approve of single-sex marriage") but there comes a point when it crosses a line into despicable and dangerous intolerance ("...and they will burn in Hell, and I'm going to tell this to everyone who'll listen").

A few strings below, people were welcoming the arrival of a great player who has also showed himself to be a great bloke. Let's stick with those sorts of characters at this club.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 15:40
Quote:
MarchingIn
I am an atheist, a secularist, and a liberal. I am very comfortably straight and quite happy to (for example) drink in a gay bar with my gay friends. However, I don't subscribe to this ultra-PC view that progressive liberalism is the only acceptable moral stance and should dictate what religious beliefs are "allowed".
As long as somebody is respectful and not advocating the oppression of homosexuals, then I am quite inclined to leave their beliefs to them. I think the acid test I would put to him is "would you happily play in a side with openly gay team mates?" if the answer is yes, then without going through what he has said in detail then yes, I would have him at Saints.


I am 90% with you although would differ on the last part. Suggesting someone goes to hell is fundamentalist and weíve no place for that intolerance.

I assume he also agrees with and adheres to all the various limitations written in Leviticus. I bet he doesnít.

To be honest I donít know what I believe in, I certainly below in more than pure physical existence. Anyone who pretends to know is lying, because they donít and wonít until death. Especially when their beliefs are an inherited geographical coincidence.

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: Israel Folau
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 15:52
I don't have to abide with any same sex law any more than with tractor brake light laws. It is nothing to do with me. We are all allowed different opinions, what we are not allowed to do is incite hatred or violence against those we disagree with.
I don't agree with Israel Folau on this particular subject but it should not affect our decision on whether to sign him.
Just think how it would be if one person's opinion was worth more than the next.

 
andysaint
Re: Israel Folau
andysaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 15:58
If this club is going to be sustainable, we need to not consider these kind of signings.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 16:24
Quote:
Hantsaintsrus4
I don't have to abide with any same sex law any more than with tractor brake light laws. It is nothing to do with me. We are all allowed different opinions, what we are not allowed to do is incite hatred or violence against those we disagree with.
I don't agree with Israel Folau on this particular subject but it should not affect our decision on whether to sign him.
Just think how it would be if one person's opinion was worth more than the next.


You donít think suggesting someone goes to hell based purely on their sexual orientation is inciting hatred? If I said all sikhs/muslims/Buddhists etc go to hell would that be inciting hatred?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
OldPete (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 16:44
There are many many practical reasons why I wouldn't want to sign him - budget - money better spent elsewhere etc etc.

That should be enough fora discussion on signing any player but this one comes with baggage and the sort of baggage that having excited a fairly heated discussion on this message board suggests to me that it is baggage that would beyond this message board have a detrimental effect on and within club.

BTW I have been mostly politically incorrect most of my life - you should have tried standing up for gay , women's rights and being antiracist 50 years ago.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
OldPete (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 16:44
There are many many practical reasons why I wouldn't want to sign him - budget - money better spent elsewhere etc etc.

That should be enough fora discussion on signing any player but this one comes with baggage and the sort of baggage that having excited a fairly heated discussion on this message board suggests to me that it is baggage that would beyond this message board have a detrimental effect on and within club.

BTW I have been mostly politically incorrect most of my life - you should have tried standing up for gay , women's rights and being antiracist 50 years ago.

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: Israel Folau
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 17:20
People seem very happy was Islam to have their outdated views but itís not ok for a Christian to say the same thing (however misguided).

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 17:27
no Iíd think they both have moronic inherited views

 
Longers
Re: Israel Folau
Longers (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 17:46
If I were gay, but did not believe in Hell, should I still be offended?

 
Shire
Re: Israel Folau
Shire (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 18:12
Man is part of the natural world;thus what he does is natural .Discuss

 
TringSaint
Re: Israel Folau
TringSaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 18:35
I donít care what his views are, but rather he kept his own counsel rather than spouting forth into the web.
We all have our views on different sections of society but being members of that society typically ensures that we act in a manner that is in keeping with a multiracial, sexual, religion, size, colour, intelligence, etc population.

I personally keep my views on such matters to myself or only discuss with those whom I know share similar views or are open to a good debate without being offended.

As a side note, I am personally really impressed by the very modern views presented on here. Makes me proud to be a rugby fan, that we have the roughest, most Ďmanlyí sport on the planet yet are open and inclusive of all, irrespective of peopleís orientation, etc. I wonder what the typical reaction on a football or cricket forum would be??

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 19:17
He's a Christian holding a well-known Christian view. It may seem out-dated to many of us but that's his religious belief.

He didn't advocate doing anything directly harmful to homosexuals.

I fundamentally disagree with his view. But the idea he be stigmatised and punished for expressing his sincere religious beliefs is as horrible to me as the idea that people were forced to go to church against their will centuries ago.

Both are the majority imposing their values and will on those less powerful. IMHO.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 19:48
I believe we are discussing whether we want someone with those views at our club or not. Not whether they should be allowed those views or be punished for them - absolutely not, thatís scary Orwellian stuff.

 
Former Hollywood Saint
Re: Israel Folau
17 April, 2018 20:04
I think the crux of the argument above which was started by a social hand grenade (sorry about that!), is that the views are outdated, and that it certainly wasn't the best way to get his view across, even though he was answering a fan with his views.

Mum (Mrs MK Al) raised a good point when I was talking to her about it. His views are his own, and although he was responding to someone else, he may have gone about it in a better way. She also noted that - as others have above - that there are several highly religious people at the club. We see Ace, Ken, Nafi and Cobus along with Nic Groom before praying on the pitch as they came on. They may hold the same or similar views on the issue, however they have kept it to themselves as they know they are role models.

People can have views on homosexuals, foreigners, black people etc but there is right time, place and way to air your views. Social media is not the best way.

He'll probably end up at Bristol as they don't seem to care about what their fans say (see Bears fiasco) and seemingly are ignoring the salary cap already (see Piutau on a £1 million a year contract).


Oh, and I didn't realise about the whole tattoos thing as well. That makes his views even more ridiculous in my view!





FHS

 
tboullem
Re: Israel Folau
Mobbs (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 20:16
I'm not sure that some of my views on a number of issues would be described as 'modern' and don't necessarily mean some of the obvious topics discussed previously on this thread. Rightly or wrongly I find this discussion a little out of place on this forum with some danger that we might be falling out with each other again. Social media can be a very corrosive place........

 
Former Hollywood Saint
Re: Israel Folau
17 April, 2018 20:29
Quote:
Mobbs
I'm not sure that some of my views on a number of issues would be described as 'modern' and don't necessarily mean some of the obvious topics discussed previously on this thread. Rightly or wrongly I find this discussion a little out of place on this forum with some danger that we might be falling out with each other again. Social media can be a very corrosive place........

I understand what you're saying, but the original post wasn't meant to eke out who shares similar views. It was just a simple question of if you took a player despite him being quite controversial. I did think twice about posting it but I thought it was a good topic to post seeing as it does exactly what the board needs - a discussion.

But, yeah I agree, social media and this board can both be quite volatile sometimes so maybe I should have taken extra care.




FHS

 
Saint Ted
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 20:32
I think itís going quite well as a discussion, yeah itís ditracted a bit from the rugby, but I wouldnít say anyone is falling out over it and has been a good discussion mixing views from people of differing opinions in a mature and respectful manor

Donít get me wrong I know the potential for it to blow up is there, but thatís why I have a delete button!

 
Happywifehappylife
Re: Israel Folau
Happywifehappylife (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 20:36
Don't worry Mobbs - a subject like this will always generate debate & I've been following it for the past couple of hours to check our lovely posters aren't offending each other & I don't think they are

IMO it's good debate at the mo & am happy to leave to our posters to respect each other's views without getting offensive please

 
tboullem
Re: Israel Folau
Mobbs (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 20:36
FHS

I agree, it has been a largely civil discussion on a contentious topic so far...........moderators will be watching closely I'm sure !

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
OldPete (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 21:24
A small point that always worries me is the label " christian " mainly because I find the rigid intolerance of some who brandish that label very much at odds with what I and many others find in the teachings of Christianity.

Unfortunately in a mostly secular world it seems to be that only the most literalist and authoritarian version is what is seen as christian - as for example in the political manifest ions of such in the USA and elsewhere.

 
Former Hollywood Saint
Re: Israel Folau
17 April, 2018 21:39
Quote:
OldPete
A small point that always worries me is the label " christian " mainly because I find the rigid intolerance of some who brandish that label very much at odds with what I and many others find in the teachings of Christianity.
Unfortunately in a mostly secular world it seems to be that only the most literalist and authoritarian version is what is seen as christian - as for example in the political manifest ions of such in the USA and elsewhere.

This. Great point OP.

Mum (Mrs MK Al) goes to church and is a Christian, however she always jokes that she is a liberal Christian. She believes in God, however homosexuals don't bother her and if they are happy - great. She also believes in evolution and other things that could be considered un-Christian.

I suppose it tends to be how extreme you go and how you interpret the rules. Much like Rugby!!





FHS

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 21:48
Agree with Pete, Folau seems to have a very fundamentalist version of Christianity. I have muslim mates that have been on Hajj but have the occasional drink and wouldn't spout off about the kafir or going to hell.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 22:40
For those who believe Folau did something unacceptable, is it that he believes such an abhorrent view or purely because he expressed it publicly?

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 23:00
I think his views were relevant for Roman/early medieval times not today. I think his views express pure ignorance. He has a right to hold those views, I have a right to think theyíre simple-minded. He is very aware of the offence those views have on millions and millions of people and as such he should keep them to himself. If he doesnít then heís open to have those views shot at.

 
TringSaint
Re: Israel Folau
TringSaint (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 23:01
For me is the making his views public that I have an issue with.
What he believes is his own choice, just donít go telling the world!

 
Saint Matt
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Matt (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 10:04
Quote:
SaintMaul
For those who believe Folau did something unacceptable, is it that he believes such an abhorrent view or purely because he expressed it publicly?

As a high profile sports 'star', it is the airing of those views that's unacceptable for me. Rugby is all about inclusion and respect, and he must have known that airing those views would cause genuine pain and upset for gay rugby fans.

As I said above, if he did ever sign for Saints, what message would that send to the hundreds (statistically) of gay people turning up at FG, or thousands watching at home?

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: Israel Folau
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 10:28
We need leaders in the team, and leaders are often controversial figures who say outrageous things. People often speak of being 'managers' but few can manage these controversial figures. If you can then they often add value.
Some will say Trump, Corbyn, Blair and Ricky Livid should keep their views to themselves. I am happy for them to speak freely, they have different opinions to mine, but of course I'm not 'offended'. I can't be free to speak out unless I allow others the same right.
Sonny Boy wants to join us? If it ever happens I for one will welcome him.
Inclusiveness is not about banning things.

Education, education, education should teach the young about having different views.
Blimey some people support Leicester, now they should be kept quiet!

 
Saint Matt
Re: Israel Folau
Saint Matt (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 10:56
Quote:
Hantsaintsrus4

...
Some will say Trump, Corbyn, Blair and Ricky Livid should keep their views to themselves. I am happy for them to speak freely, they have different opinions to mine, but of course I'm not 'offended'...

There is a difference between speaking freely (something I absolutely support) and hate speech. Deciding if what Folau said crosses the line into hate speech is probably not best debated on a rugby forum.

There is also a difference to the people you've named (excluding the fictional character!) in that they are not sports stars. Of course politicians should be free to speak what they truly believe, in fact some may argue the world would be slightly better if they actually did from time to time! An international rugby player has to accept that he has become a role model to the community as a whole, and if he has the beliefs of a Neanderthal, he should keep them to himself or accept the inevitable consequences if he decides to speak up.

Note how this is hurting people in the wider rugby community:

[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
MarchingIn
Re: Israel Folau
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 14:12
When considering this topic, it is worth bearing in mind that homosexual acts are actually still illegal in Samoa and Tonga and punishable by up to 7 or 10 years in prison respectively. I am not in any way suggesting this is a good thing, as it isn't, but that is the social and cultural background from which many professional players come - Folau's parents are Tongan. Fiji is alone of the south sea island nations by protecting LGBT people from discrimination in it's constitution, but all 3 of those great rugby playing south sea island nations are quite deeply conservative and religious.

The sport may want to think carefully before lifting the lid too far on players religious beliefs as I suspect Folau is far from alone - the media has isolated him and it would be a brave man who would speak in support and agreement.

I actually respect Folau's honesty and integrity - and I strongly suspect that he believes I, as an unrepentant apostate living in sin with a woman, am also going to hell - the bible says that as well. Hell is hell, there isn't a special one for some types of sin. I don't feel offended by that opinion. The judgement comes not from Israel Folau, but from a centuries old book, and I reject it.

Folau isn't advocating oppressing or punishing "sinners", he simply believes, as do billions of other people, that God will do so. The level of condemnation he has faced is actually more bigoted than anything he has said.

I'm very pro-LGBT rights, and I have good friends who are gay and lesbian, but I don't believe they or I have any right to demand validation from everybody else to the exclusion of their own religious beliefs.

Those who think he should believe what he wants but keep his gob shut are apparently overlooking the fact that the bible also calls on Christians to spread the word of God, so silence is also incompatible with belief.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 14:48
Folau was born in NSW. Sydney is the gay capital of Australia.

Thatís like saying it would be ok for me to be racist because my grandparents were ?

 
Hantsaintsrus4
Re: Israel Folau
Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 18:01
Fictitious? I was lead singer in Ricky Livid and the Tonedeafs, never rebooked was our best record.

 
MarchingIn
Re: Israel Folau
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 22:21
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Thatís like saying it would be ok for me to be racist because my grandparents were ?

No, it's not, that's a fallacious argument.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 22:33
Why? Saying his homophobic views are understandable because theyíre prevalent in Samoa and thatís where his family originate from... despite being born and brought up in Australia which is incredibly pro gay etc


I donít mind the bible adherence argument but suggesting because your grandparents or parents have archaic views when youíve grown up in a modern western society is BS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/04/2018 22:34 by Wilson Pickett.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Israel Folau
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 22:33
Quote:
MarchingIn
When considering this topic, it is worth bearing in mind that homosexual acts are actually still illegal in Samoa and Tonga and punishable by up to 7 or 10 years in prison respectively. I am not in any way suggesting this is a good thing, as it isn't, but that is the social and cultural background from which many professional players come - Folau's parents are Tongan. Fiji is alone of the south sea island nations by protecting LGBT people from discrimination in it's constitution, but all 3 of those great rugby playing south sea island nations are quite deeply conservative and religious.
The sport may want to think carefully before lifting the lid too far on players religious beliefs as I suspect Folau is far from alone - the media has isolated him and it would be a brave man who would speak in support and agreement.

I actually respect Folau's honesty and integrity - and I strongly suspect that he believes I, as an unrepentant apostate living in sin with a woman, am also going to hell - the bible says that as well. Hell is hell, there isn't a special one for some types of sin. I don't feel offended by that opinion. The judgement comes not from Israel Folau, but from a centuries old book, and I reject it.

Folau isn't advocating oppressing or punishing "sinners", he simply believes, as do billions of other people, that God will do so. The level of condemnation he has faced is actually more bigoted than anything he has said.

I'm very pro-LGBT rights, and I have good friends who are gay and lesbian, but I don't believe they or I have any right to demand validation from everybody else to the exclusion of their own religious beliefs.

Those who think he should believe what he wants but keep his gob shut are apparently overlooking the fact that the bible also calls on Christians to spread the word of God, so silence is also incompatible with belief.

+1

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Israel Folau
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 22:47
well the history is that Folau was a lunatic party boy in his early career, often going out until 6am day after games, sleeping with random women, waking up in random places etc... which is all fine but it was wrecking his career

So he Ďfound godí and uses a strict adherence to religion to keep his lifestyle in check and be successful. Iíve got boxing mates who are Muslim for similar reasons albeit heís gone very orthodox.


thereís no problem with anyone having or airing any views IMHO and equally I/we/anyone can take a view on those opinions. Itís when the law are involved that people should worry about closing down opinion. Otherwise itís all fair game.


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