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Eif Jones
International Qualification
Eif Jones (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 11:27
Its good to read that players signed after Dec 31 2017 have to reside for 5 years in order to transfer their international eligibility. It was a bit of a farce at 3 years especially in England where Rugby League converts, who had already played for a different country at League, were fast forwarded to becoming international Union players.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: International Qualification
Abington Adam (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 12:10
Yes it is good news, yes it was a bit of a farce, well done on crowbarring in a dig at England.(Sm120)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2018 12:12 by Abington Adam.

 
Walks11
Re: International Qualification
Walks11 (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 12:28
and Wales have not been guilty at all I guess

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: International Qualification
higgy365 (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 12:59
Would never blame INDIVIDUAL players or coaches for exploiting but staying within the rules to their best advantage.

Itís still only arbitrary but 5years does sit a bit better with me.

Edit = INDIVIDUAL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2018 14:41 by higgy365.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: International Qualification
OldPete (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 13:36
Every one does it to a degree from the USA to Japan The white , red , blue , green and black shirts are now more symbolic of a " national brand " than they are as representatives of a nations rugby playing population.

 
SaintsAsh
Re: International Qualification
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 14:36
I have already highlighted in another thread how many of the Welsh squad were not Welsh, and yes they had even more than England.

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: International Qualification
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 17:04
So Eif is a troll and yet heís allowed to carry on this nonsense?

Mods are you blind may I ask?

 
JRM
Re: International Qualification
JRM (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 17:54
Quote:
Lamont4Saints
So Eif is a troll and yet heís allowed to carry on this nonsense?
Mods are you blind may I ask?

A good rule of thumb is not to read posts by posters who raise your blood pressure. Eif is obviously one where you are concerned. Personally I have my list (3) of culprits and have found that ignoring these both keeps my heart beating regularly and the cat is pleased as it doesn't need to hide when I read 'Marching On.'

 
fleetg
Re: International Qualification
fleetg (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 20:56
Eif is just a very bitter Welshman L4S : no story in that !

 
Saint Ted
Re: International Qualification
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 21:16
Quote:
Lamont4Saints
So Eif is a troll and yet heís allowed to carry on this nonsense?
Mods are you blind may I ask?

Take his name off the post and I can almost guarantee a different set of responses.

Youíre mind is made up before you read what has been written, so as JRM says, donít read his posts if they bother you that much.

His opinion is that fast tracking rugby league converts that have already played for another country was a farce, many other English will agree.

If itís getting too much to ignore him and you donít like how the board is moderated, youíre other option of course is to just not logon, whatever works best for you

 
Corkst
Re: International Qualification
Corkst (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 21:50
Quote:
Saint Ted
Quote:
Lamont4Saints
So Eif is a troll and yet heís allowed to carry on this nonsense?
Mods are you blind may I ask?

Take his name off the post and I can almost guarantee a different set of responses.

Youíre mind is made up before you read what has been written, so as JRM says, donít read his posts if they bother you that much.

His opinion is that fast tracking rugby league converts that have already played for another country was a farce, many other English will agree.

If itís getting too much to ignore him and you donít like how the board is moderated, youíre other option of course is to just not logon, whatever works best for you

Fair enough but the fact is that you can't imagine anyone else's name on a post like this with a blatant anti English sentiment thrown in for no good reason other than to be offensive. It would be different if it were a one off but it's a regular thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2018 21:56 by Corkst.

 
fleetg
Re: International Qualification
fleetg (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 22:31
Bitter anti English Welshman : a non story really.
Just post a load of anti Welsh bile in response ; it will likely get a bite !

 
Saint Ted
Re: International Qualification
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 22:40
which part of it is offensive? Genuine question.

People say heís anti English, he may weíll be, but every post along those lines is aimed at England rugby, not the English in general, taking pop at the rugby club, do we think the same when people have a pop at Saracens or Tigers

I know itís difficult, but when you separate the poster from the post, a lot of what he posts are valid points, granted spoilt by digs at England rugby, just ignore those bits, as soon as he posts anything that is insulting another poster or gets personal heís gone, but up until now, Iíve never seen it and nobodyís reported it

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: International Qualification
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 23:13
The most outrageous example of abuse of the eligibility rules was Wales playing Shane Howarth.

The rigour of the WRU due diligence was basicslly: "Well he told us he had a Welsh grandparent so that was good enough for us."

 
Corkst
Re: International Qualification
Corkst (IP Logged)
09 August, 2018 23:43
Okay, I'll give you my take on it :-
You say they are digs at England rugby rather than the English in general, but that is because this is a rugby site. If it were a football site I feel it would be digs against English football, a knitting site the English would be using foreign sourced knitting needles and more expensive wool. Also it is not just digs at the national side and governing body, it is the premiership ruining things with their high salaries or how they're underperforming in Europe etc...
You say they are valid points spoiled by digs at England rugby but I think the digs are the point of the post rather than the rugby related content.
When I used the term offensive I meant that it was his intention to offend via anti-English sentiment.
No, he doesn't insult individual posters so stays within the boundaries but that doesn't mean he's not guilty of bigotry. Given the provocative nature of some (?) of his posts it's hardly surprising that people feel the need to respond in kind.
Anyway, to end on a positive note this forum is still the best place to come to for all things saints and keep up the good work!

 
Saint Ted
Re: International Qualification
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 07:35
Don't get me wrong Corkst, I agree with you, Eif is very similar to a chap that drinks in my pub, very similar in opinion and how they come across, he'll often make a bee line for me when he see's me, I roll my eyes and think 'here we go again', and he'll start on his anti English rugby rants, but like all things in the rugby world I counter argument with him and at the end we have a beer together. I know they aren't the same person as I don't think I've met anyone with such a hatred for Scarlets!

That's how I see him, same could probably be said about some saints fans, everything saints does is right, everything Saracens/Tigers do is wrong, I don't look at it any differently, but then hey, we're all different

Most of the responses in this thread are good ones in the argument, but it becomes a struggle to find them within the anti-Eif posts, which I am more than aware I am contributing to!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: International Qualification
Neil-H (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 07:48
Quote:
SaintMaul
The most outrageous example of abuse of the eligibility rules was Wales playing Shane Howarth.
The rigour of the WRU due diligence was basicslly: "Well he told us he had a Welsh grandparent so that was good enough for us."

You missed Brett Simpkinson and Colin Charvis along with Howarth... all of which played for Wales while not qualifying u see any laws.

I to am glad of this change which was implemented a good 3-4 years ago and mainly pushed 8n by Gus Pichot.

And the rugby league was a farce but how many have there been? Solomana, Paul? Teo has an English grandparent btw.

I personally would make it longer than 5, or have an exception, that if they played all there professional rugby in that country, then maybe reduce qualification by a few years?

This new rule is a step in the right direction, but needs more imho

 
SaintsAsh
Re: International Qualification
SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 08:00
Quote:
Saint Ted
which part of it is offensive? Genuine question.
People say heís anti English, he may weíll be, but every post along those lines is aimed at England rugby, not the English in general, taking pop at the rugby club, do we think the same when people have a pop at Saracens or Tigers

I know itís difficult, but when you separate the poster from the post, a lot of what he posts are valid points, granted spoilt by digs at England rugby, just ignore those bits, as soon as he posts anything that is insulting another poster or gets personal heís gone, but up until now, Iíve never seen it and nobodyís reported it

They are not by themselves offensive, it is the collective weight over many many posts.

It has been said that his/her posts are just points and opinions about Rugby, a while back he complained about the amount of non-English in the English team. I did my research and counted the amount of foreigners on the books for both nations, I proved that the Welsh used more. Does Eif respond with a post about being annoyed with how many foreigners are playing for Wales? No he tried another tact at pointing the blame for all the bad things in Rugby onto England, that was then also proven wrong. So IMHO it is clear that he is merely trolling as when proven wrong he finds another way of slagging off England rather than engaging in a debate. Forums are for debate, he merely states an inflammatory point (that often has no basis in truth) then has no further part to play in the debate. What valid Rugby points is he making by doing that?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: International Qualification
shendy (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 08:11
Exactly the point I was about to make St Ash - nothing offensive in the post, in isolation. Taken as part of the constant flow of digs however and it's something else.

And the problem is, St Ted, that no-one else would have written that post like that - I doubt many would disagree with the main gist of the post, then bam, something completely unnecessary against English rugby.

 
Saint Ted
Re: International Qualification
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 08:17
I'll give you that the playing no further part in the debate is infuriating, but the inflammatory points do raise debate between others, when you read between the posts about him

As I've said above, if the posts didn't have names off, the responses will be different

Likewise, replace England with Saracens and everybody will jump on the bandwagon

On the plus side he's stopped his almost monthly 'Wasted local talent' threads from back on the old official site!

 
Corkst
Re: International Qualification
Corkst (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 08:25
Quote:
Saint Ted
Don't get me wrong Corkst, I agree with you, Eif is very similar to a chap that drinks in my pub, very similar in opinion and how they come across, he'll often make a bee line for me when he see's me, I roll my eyes and think 'here we go again', and he'll start on his anti English rugby rants, but like all things in the rugby world I counter argument with him and at the end we have a beer together. I know they aren't the same person as I don't think I've met anyone with such a hatred for Scarlets!
That's how I see him, same could probably be said about some saints fans, everything saints does is right, everything Saracens/Tigers do is wrong, I don't look at it any differently, but then hey, we're all different

Most of the responses in this thread are good ones in the argument, but it becomes a struggle to find them within the anti-Eif posts, which I am more than aware I am contributing to!

I see what you mean but this is more like if the guy you know walked into the pub, had his rant and walked straight out again without engaging in the back and forth. So if any of us met Mr Jones in the pub it would be a completely different dynamic and we'd (probably) react differently. Agree completely with the point that some saints fans are guilty of wearing the blinkers as well, and then they end up looking for someone else to blame when saints lose rather than accepting it as part of sport.
As to the inter club rivalry in Wales, it leaves banter way behind in the rear view mirror and goes somewhere a bit darker. One could argue that it is due to the passion the fans have for rugby but it seems to come from a different place, but as you say, we're all different.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: International Qualification
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 08:35
as mentioned earlier the only high profile player to have played international rugby whilst not being qualified to do so was...... drum roll......


Wales full back Shane Howarth


Every country does it. Ireland actively recruit players to nationalise them, Bundee Aki. NZ offers scholarships to islander kids (no bad thing for their families). Aussie doing the same. Scotland all the time doing it. France have a load of kiwis and islanders.


really inane to point the finger at any one country



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2018 08:39 by Wilson Pickett.

 
Corkst
Re: International Qualification
Corkst (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 08:39
Quote:
Saint Ted
I'll give you that the playing no further part in the debate is infuriating, but the inflammatory points do raise debate between others, when you read between the posts about him
As I've said above, if the posts didn't have names off, the responses will be different

Likewise, replace England with Saracens and everybody will jump on the bandwagon

On the plus side he's stopped his almost monthly 'Wasted local talent' threads from back on the old official site!

Ditto the rolling maul rants and the why did nuttley get dropped after the sarries game diatribe (although that one still appears now and again).

 
Saint Ted
Re: International Qualification
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 08:44
How does this sound as a compromise...

Eif, from now on, if you post anything inflammatory without a source, if you can't link, name the source and somebody else will put it up, if it's just a straight out attempt to troll, I'll edit it and keep on editing until they don't need it anymore

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: International Qualification
Neil-H (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 08:49
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
as mentioned earlier the only high profile player to have played international rugby whilst not being qualified to do so was...... drum roll......

Wales full back Shane Howarth


Every country does it. Ireland actively recruit players to nationalise them, Bundee Aki. NZ offers scholarships to islander kids (no bad thing for their families). Aussie doing the same. Scotland all the time doing it. France have a load of kiwis and islanders.


really inane to point the finger at any one country

See above, Brett Simpkinson was same time as Howarth, Howarth just got more press, but for me the biggest name to play international rugby when not qualified was Colin Charvis?

His qualification wasnít legit, but was only picked up, just as he qualified through residency rule... funny that?

But yes they all do it and if itís within the laws, they will all carry on doing it... personally, I think itís far to easy and want it made even harder to qualify smiling smiley

 
Deesaint
Re: International Qualification
Deesaint (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 16:32
Your telling me Shane Howarth wasn't Welsh !!!

Nope cant believe it

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: International Qualification
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 20:33
oh yeah and he was capped by New Zealand beforehand, in Union not League

 
fleetg
Re: International Qualification
fleetg (IP Logged)
10 August, 2018 21:04
That sounds fair Saint Ted and frankly long overdue !
Just a shame you came down on me like a ton of bricks after one post a while ago without a link (which I had not realised was necessary).
Eif consistently posts about a supposed story (almost always anti English or at least anti English Rugby) with no requirement for a link.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: International Qualification
OldPete (IP Logged)
11 August, 2018 06:13
And exactly how will you tell what is inflammatory ? will it apply to posts by others as well ?

If for example I were to post criticising the English Premiership Salary cap and compared it unfavourably with the French system of financial control for clubs - is that inflammatory or even anti English.

It seems to me that you are on very dangerous ground here.

 
Saint Ted
Re: International Qualification
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
11 August, 2018 07:06
No idea Pete, Iíll figure it out!

 
Lamont4Saints
Re: International Qualification
Lamont4Saints (IP Logged)
11 August, 2018 07:30
Pete if you put a balanced article together and then stayed to discuss it I wouldnít mind. Itís the posts which are there to be anti English without a balanced view and no proper discussion which is dull.

The real question should of been, why canít England find a decent 12 and always look to converts or other country imports to fill that role. Teío, Flutely, Burgess, Farrell (whose a 10), Manu (whoís a 13), Banahan the list goes on

That would of been a good article. Eif could of even bragged about Jamie Roberts being central to Walesí great run and also Henson who in his day was fantastic.

Just an example of how to properly do the internet.

 
Corkst
Re: International Qualification
Corkst (IP Logged)
11 August, 2018 09:40
Quote:
OldPete
And exactly how will you tell what is inflammatory ? will it apply to posts by others as well ?
If for example I were to post criticising the English Premiership Salary cap and compared it unfavourably with the French system of financial control for clubs - is that inflammatory or even anti English.

It seems to me that you are on very dangerous ground here.

And the award for the most disingenuous post of the day goes to........

 
oldtoastersaint
Re: International Qualification
oldtoastersaint (IP Logged)
11 August, 2018 11:40
Someone wrote to my local paper a while back calling for the return of capital punishment based on the back of an extensive cost/benefit analysis he'd meticulously compiled, perhaps with the help of Shylock!


Seems to me that Eif is likewise inextricably constrained to seek any obscure angle with an undeniable element of truth to it however ungermane.

I agree, by the bye, that my local editor was right to publish that amoral commercial angle to the 'dead end' where it literally and morally deserves to publicly permanently reside.

Eif is different from most polemicists on here in that he is consistently an outlier, but freedom of speech demands that he should be allowed to hang himself however many times he feels it necessary to prove that he's truly 'talking through his (non-green black and gold) hat' most of the time.

 
fleetg
Re: International Qualification
fleetg (IP Logged)
11 August, 2018 19:10
Totally agree oldtoastersaint that Eif should be allowed to continue to post as he does now. My gripe is that anyone else who chooses to respond or post a new topic with an anti Welsh or anti Welsh rugby stance should also feel free to post just that without being accused of being imflamatory and threatened with the post being removed.
Same rules all round surely !

 
Saint Ted
Re: International Qualification
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
11 August, 2018 20:04
Right, so to get this straight, some want him banned, some want him censored and some want him to be able to stay as he is.

I'll be honest, I don't care, I've always applied the same to him as everyone else personally and have deleted several posts

Fleetg, you got warned because of the headline you put up whilst there was already an argument going on in another thread about Eif and the english and Welsh and antagonizing. You were just unlucky that I logged on just after you posted it to deal with somebody else posting more antagonistic stuff

As I've said to lamont4saints, don't like the missing, don't log on, whatever suits you

Its a web forum about saints, it's not that important in the grand scheme of things what anyone says

 
John Tee
Re: International Qualification
John Tee (IP Logged)
13 August, 2018 15:27
Id say 5 years is too short.
I'd also look at scouting because football has an issue whereby you need a full senior cap.
In a game with money, you could in theory, transfer a youngster to another country and therefore plunder a rich seen in players in an age group from poorer playing nations.
If a 17-18 yr old had to qualify through residency over 7 years and therefore be 25 ish, that is possible lalf an international career. That would make them think.

What you need to avoid is picking up a world class age group player and joining a rich team in another country...and 'qualifying' if the progress.
What is to stop you doing that to quite a few...?? And thereby increase your potential player pool.

In football, the Mali u20's reached the semi finals of the u20 wc...they stood up against the Spains Germany and Englands. That would make them outstanding in that age group and bodes very well for their full national team.
Half those players could end up in a rich European league for peanuts...and then qualify lots of them.
In terms of cost of scouting in football, that would be cheap.

If you replace the likes of Mali with the Pacific Isles then you get the possibilities.

My feeling is the qualifying period was woefully short at 3, and not much better at 5.

 
Saint Stokey
Re: International Qualification
Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
13 August, 2018 23:35
If a person qualifies for a nation, as in becomes a legal citizen, then and only then should they be eligible to represent that country.

If a player, Tongan for example, moves to England, becomes a legal citizen, i have no issue with them representing the adopted country.

Its unlikely that the length of a rugby career would allow it, but if a player had represented one country but was able to become a legal citizen of another, then to be selected by that country, i would have no qualms

 
MarchingIn
Re: International Qualification
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
14 August, 2018 13:10
Quote:
Eif Jones
England

Quote:
Eif Jones
England

Quote:
Eif Jones
England


He's obsessed, bless him.


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