Quantcast

The Unofficial Northampton Saints Supporters' Message Board




Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Discussion started by Saint Stokey , 14 November, 2018 12:48
Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Saint Stokey 14 November, 2018 12:48
Just thinking about potential new signings in the wake of this 'England centre rumour' and the raft of injuries that we currently have.

I know we would love to see some World Class Hurricanes players coming to re-join Boyd but as far as i can see, this is unlikely.

I think i read on facebook that someone spoke to Boyd about this and whilst he couldn't say anything, he gave a wry smile. However, as far as I am aware, we are only allowed 2 foreign players in the squad. I may be wrong, so any update would be appreciated.

With this 2 foreign players rule, I believe this doesn't include EU nationals (brexit may bring a whole set of other issues - to be discussed later) or Kolpak qualified players. I believe Kolpak to include South Africa and South Sea Islander players.

Players such as Big T, i believe to be Kolpak as they have South Sea Island heritage, essentially a dual passport. So i would imagine that our 'foreign players' would be Kellaway and Franks.

Does this mean that any signings would have to either be European or Kolpak? presumably, franks and kellaway are on multiple year contracts so, money no object, we cannot sign a Keiran Reed or a Beauden Barrett (again, I'm assuming as i don't know their heritage).

Does this mean that if we were looking to sign an All Black, they would have to have a dual passport for an island or europe?


Does this also mean that we cannot sign James Wilson as he would be a 3rd foreign player?

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
twsaint 14 November, 2018 13:02
I think that largely true. I believe (although I might be wrong) that only 2 overseas defined players are allowed on the field at one time.

It shouldn't be hard to find a couple of decent ABs with a European or a Pacific Island granny.

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Saint Ted 14 November, 2018 13:30
Today's Brexit deal announcement could have a big effect on this as it's all about the EU trade agreements

What could also have an effect is both Australia and New Zealand are both in negotiations from this year, if I've read things correctly

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Abington Adam 14 November, 2018 13:55
The Kolpak ruling is intrinsically linked with our membership of the EU so if the Brexit agreement ends freedom of movement for EU citizens it will also (probably) end our obligations under Kolpak. With a transition period to follow our (probable) formal departure in March this may not be a consideration for clubs for a couple of years, but it will be a matter that the RFU will need to react to in fairly short order.



COME ON YOU SAINTS!
Church's Stand season ticket holder
EMRU Referee

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
tedge 14 November, 2018 14:16
If the rule is not more than 2 foreigners on the pitch (or is it "in the squad" ? ) it does mean you can sign more and as forwards are often rotated more than backs you could engage say another foreign prop

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Saint Ted 14 November, 2018 14:24
From premiership rugby....

How many foreign or overseas players can play in the Premiership?
It is important to note that the legal definition of foreign players is different to one of non-English players. In addition, players can fall under the Bosman or Kolpak rule. The Bosman ruling reinforced the Treaty of Rome in a sporting context, allowing the free movement of EU national workers around other EU countries. This effectively means any EU national has the same rights as any ‘local’ worker and therefore cannot be defined as a foreigner.

In the Premiership, the rule on foreign players has been amended to come into line with the regulations in European competitions. A maximum of two foreign players can now be on the pitch at any one time, at all periods during the season.

The level of English Qualified Players (EQP) in the Premiership has been fairly consistent since the inception of the league, and now stands at approximately 70%. This means on average there are approximately 200 English players playing every weekend in the Premiership.


Read more at [www.premiershiprugby.com]

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
tedge 14 November, 2018 14:52
If we leave the European Union it might mean that all non-British players would be subject to the work permit regulations as devised by the Government. In UK professional football at present, if a player does not qualify by being a citizen of the EU, or covered by the Kolpak rules, the proposed recruit would be subject to a GBE (Governing Body Endorsement) which has been agreed between the Home Office and the FA and essentially relates to the player's age and his international caps. Generally speaking, a club must demonstrate that a non-EU/EEA player is "internationally established at the highest level, and will make a significant contribution to the development of football at the highest level in the UK".

In order to automatically qualify for a GBE, the player must have participated in a certain percentage of senior international matches for his national team. Generally, that percentage is calculated over a two-year period, but is variable according to age and the international status of his country.

If qualified, there is no limit to the no. allowed and English clubs can and often do put out sides with no English qualified players - hence the relative paucity of England qualified players available for the national team.

So if the Government and the RFU (or WRU or SFU) agree a similar arrangement then clubs could sign players from anywhere in the world on the above basis. The individual unions could add their own rules restricting numbers on the pitch etc in order to avoid reducing promotion of English talent but you would think they would have to allow more than the present 2 foreigners once the "freebies" are no longer available.

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Saint Stokey 14 November, 2018 16:01
Without adding to the post-brexit politics, the current situation is 2 'foreign players' on the pitch.

so in theory, we could have 4 foreign players in the match day squad if they were all front row. What would happen if there was an injury. We couldn't bring on another sub due to there being 3 foreign players, but we could provide a front row replacement. Would that mean uncontested scrums?

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
SaintsEdward 14 November, 2018 16:17
Am I the only one sitting here majorly confused by this!

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
ramseysaint 14 November, 2018 16:25
It's not just you.
So we have Tuala, Pisi, Kellaway big T and Cobus can't all play at the same time?

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
SaintsEdward 14 November, 2018 16:27
Quote:
ramseysaint
It's not just you.
So we have Tuala, Pisi, Kellaway big T and Cobus can't all play at the same time?

Just read the link above, and i think I've got my head round it. If they're an established international it doesn't fall into the rule. So out of those players only Kellaway would be classed as 1 of the 2.

Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
tedge 14 November, 2018 16:40
Quote:
SaintsEdward
Quote:
ramseysaint
It's not just you.
So we have Tuala, Pisi, Kellaway big T and Cobus can't all play at the same time?

Just read the link above, and i think I've got my head round it. If they're an established international it doesn't fall into the rule. So out of those players only Kellaway would be classed as 1 of the 2.

Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

I think you are; Tuala, Pisi, as Islanders and Reinach, as South African, are not classed as "foreign" under the "Kopak" ruling. I think Naiyaravoro might also be classed as an "Islander" (by birth and possibly passport) despite having played for Australia. Ratuniyarawa is an Islander, as is Tuitavake and Brussow is South African as is Van Wyk. Ribbans is either South African or has a UK passport so he doesn't count as foreign either.

Kellaway, as an out and out Aussie is a "foreign" player. Franks might be but has been in the UK a long time so might be non-foreign due to residence (not sure where that comes in though !). Rob Horne was a "foreigner".

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
LeicesterSaint 14 November, 2018 17:34
I'd be surprised if Franks is on more than a year contract given his age? That aside it would seem that there is room for another 'foreign' player in the squad given that most are either UK, SA or islander in one way or another.

Perhaps the revival of trust in our academy players is well timed if it is going to be harder to have South African and Islander players in the squad/team in a few season's time - I'd hope that there would be a sensible transition period but who knows. As I'm completely clueless about the round ball game is there anything similar there? I'd imagine that outcry would be a whole lot louder given the relative size/value of the sports (not that football clubs were tripping over themselves to sign Islanders last time I checked!).

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Saint Stokey 14 November, 2018 18:36
Imagine the uproar at Gloucester or Saracens when it turns out 90% of their team are now classed as foreign so cant all play together

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
andysaint 14 November, 2018 19:37
There are plenty of players from the British isles available who have worked hard come through the systems and know the leagues. Why there is so much urge to employ SH players I do not know

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
None 15 November, 2018 08:41
I have nothing against foreign imports per se as long as they are the best of the best. Rugby is, however, fast going down the road of football, bringing vast numbers of journeymen players often past their best, just here for their pensions or for their bulk.

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Walks11 15 November, 2018 09:15
Quote:
tedge
Quote:
SaintsEdward
Quote:
ramseysaint
It's not just you.
So we have Tuala, Pisi, Kellaway big T and Cobus can't all play at the same time?

Just read the link above, and i think I've got my head round it. If they're an established international it doesn't fall into the rule. So out of those players only Kellaway would be classed as 1 of the 2.

Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

I think you are; Tuala, Pisi, as Islanders and Reinach, as South African, are not classed as "foreign" under the "Kopak" ruling. I think Naiyaravoro might also be classed as an "Islander" (by birth and possibly passport) despite having played for Australia. Ratuniyarawa is an Islander, as is Tuitavake and Brussow is South African as is Van Wyk. Ribbans is either South African or has a UK passport so he doesn't count as foreign either.

Kellaway, as an out and out Aussie is a "foreign" player. Franks might be but has been in the UK a long time so might be non-foreign due to residence (not sure where that comes in though !). Rob Horne was a "foreigner".

I’m not sure this is quite right either Tedge.. being South African (or other qualifying nation) doesn’t automatically mean you fall into the Kolpak ruling. Certainly in cricket the player has to declare his unavailability from international duties to qualify. So Reinach would not be classed as Kolpak given he is still on fringes of SA squad. This is of course assuming ECB and RFU rulings are the same

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Duckonstilts 15 November, 2018 10:48
Southern hemisphere players are attractive for two reasons. They look very good from afar in the no tackle leagues and many are very cheep.

Some happen to play for 3 of the best teams in the world too.

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
tedge 15 November, 2018 11:40
Quote:
Walks11
Quote:
tedge
Quote:
SaintsEdward
Quote:
ramseysaint
It's not just you.
So we have Tuala, Pisi, Kellaway big T and Cobus can't all play at the same time?

Just read the link above, and i think I've got my head round it. If they're an established international it doesn't fall into the rule. So out of those players only Kellaway would be classed as 1 of the 2.

Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

I think you are; Tuala, Pisi, as Islanders and Reinach, as South African, are not classed as "foreign" under the "Kopak" ruling. I think Naiyaravoro might also be classed as an "Islander" (by birth and possibly passport) despite having played for Australia. Ratuniyarawa is an Islander, as is Tuitavake and Brussow is South African as is Van Wyk. Ribbans is either South African or has a UK passport so he doesn't count as foreign either.

Kellaway, as an out and out Aussie is a "foreign" player. Franks might be but has been in the UK a long time so might be non-foreign due to residence (not sure where that comes in though !). Rob Horne was a "foreigner".

I’m not sure this is quite right either Tedge.. being South African (or other qualifying nation) doesn’t automatically mean you fall into the Kolpak ruling. Certainly in cricket the player has to declare his unavailability from international duties to qualify. So Reinach would not be classed as Kolpak given he is still on fringes of SA squad. This is of course assuming ECB and RFU rulings are the same


I quote below from Wikipaedia:

the Kolpak Ruling declares that citizens of countries which have applicable Association Agreements with the EU, and who are lawfully working within an EU country, have equal rights to work as EU citizens, and cannot have restrictions such as quotas placed upon them. Such countries include those within the African, Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) group of states, such as South Africa, Jamaica and Zimbabwe.

and:In rugby league and rugby union, the Kolpak ruling has allowed teams to sign many players from Fiji, Tonga, Samoa and South Africa, all of which are also ACP countries. Many rugby union clubs have also signed South African players under Kolpak, most notably the French team RC Toulonnais and English team Saracens F.C.

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Thrupp artist 15 November, 2018 13:20
I've noted the use of term Journeyman (men) recently but have been unsure what meaning it was intended to convey? My understanding was that it meant a skilled worker competent to work in their chosen field following a suitable apprenticeship. Sounds to me like a good former Academy player in the rugby context. however it seems to me that what some folks believe is that there are a large (vast?) number of ordinary quality 'foreign' players in the Premiership of who subvert the opportunities of the true journeymen. I simply don't think that the latter is in fact true.

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
shiversaint 15 November, 2018 15:23
Quote:
Thrupp artist
I've noted the use of term Journeyman (men) recently but have been unsure what meaning it was intended to convey? My understanding was that it meant a skilled worker competent to work in their chosen field following a suitable apprenticeship. Sounds to me like a good former Academy player in the rugby context. however it seems to me that what some folks believe is that there are a large (vast?) number of ordinary quality 'foreign' players in the Premiership of who subvert the opportunities of the true journeymen. I simply don't think that the latter is in fact true.

Your understanding of the term is an American definition and has quite a specified meaning when it comes to a type of qualification in a manual trade.

A journeyman in the context of rugby is someone with decent skills, but has never really secured a starting spot in a team and ends up bouncing around different clubs. The most obvious example in recent memory is James Wilson, although plenty of people would argue that is not a fair illustration of him as a player.

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Saint Stokey 15 November, 2018 16:58

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
tedge 15 November, 2018 17:11
Every team needs several of these

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
ramseysaint 15 November, 2018 17:54
With 98 caps for Ireland and 200+ games for Munster I wouldn't call Stringer a journeyman, but I can see how he would fit in to the Premiership journeyman class.

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
higgy365 15 November, 2018 19:40
Well, I’m glad we cleared all that up*

Re: Potential new signings - No Rumours here
Toulousian Firefighter 16 November, 2018 11:40
Surprised they missed Andy Gomarsall from that list. Didn't he play for 7?

I think would be harsh to say that about James Wilson. He's at the end of his career, was with us 5 years and helped cover injury at Bath. Hardly a 'journyman'.

I'd also question whether rugby is going the way of football etc as someone points out above. Look at the U20 World Cup and the squads around the premiership each weekend. Usually a blend of stars, experience and young players coming through. If a player isn't good enough, they don't get on the pitch.


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net

Who is online?

  • Total users online:
     
  • Most users online:
     
  • Users on this site:
     
  • Where are they?