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St.Sinner
Hartley
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 22:20
With a lot being questioned about Hartley at the moment. Whether he will make the World Cup squad or if he will retire etc.

If we look at the many great current and ex players who rate him as a leader and his work off the field. He definitely brings something in a world class capacity in that respect. With Boyd here for another two seasons, do you suspect there might be a bigger picture planned, possibly Dowson taking the reigns as head coach after Boyd, and keeping Dylan in the squad until that point where he can step into a forwards coaching role?

I have no idea if he is interested in coaching but all his touted attributes point towards making a great coach. There are undoubtedly better playing Hookers in the prem, but with Eddie Jones, Farrell, Martin Johnson etc all banging on about his leadership. If he canít play any more surely integrating him into our coaching set up would be beneficial. Maybe it was a plan to slip into a player coach role after the World Cup season but this injury has scuppered plans.

Dowson running the show with Hartley and Vesty would be a great young English coaching team for us to progress with after learning the ropes under Boyd.

Do we think thereís a bigger picture or a case of him potentially retiring if he misses World Cup selection, or gradually being overtaken by the current crop of hookers and then retirement?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Hartley
Neil-H (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 08:21
Not sure about Hartley, but Id say Vesty would be Boyds number 2?

 
ajack
Re: Hartley
ajack (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 09:39
Not sure being a great leader makes anyone a great coach. Martin Johnson being a good example.

 
ramseysaint
Re: Hartley
ramseysaint (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 09:47
Quote:
ajack
Not sure being a great leader makes anyone a great coach. Martin Johnson being a good example.

You got in first shack.
I've never been a believer that just because you are/were a great players you would make a great coach. Look at Boyd, what was his playing career?

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Hartley
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 10:26
Vesty seems to be the coaching talent

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Hartley
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 10:41
Dowson started working on his coaching quite early and always looked like he had the determination and skill to make it. Vesty seems a natural talent, I would back him to make the step up but you never can tell. Dickens is a great coach but struggled when thrown in at the deep end, hopefully once he has time to move at his own speed he will be good enough in future but perhaps not.

Dylan might be a good coach, he might not. He has a good grounding but he would need to be wise and take it slow. Good coaches are grown over time.

I am hopeful that Boyd will be here for the long term. IMO he needs a big trophy or two under his belt to consider his move a professional success. Personally he might be having a great time and what he has done in 1 year is bring back our soul that was missing for a few years.

 
St.Sinner
Re: Hartley
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 12:13
Quote:
ramseysaint
Quote:
ajack
Not sure being a great leader makes anyone a great coach. Martin Johnson being a good example.

You got in first shack.
I've never been a believer that just because you are/were a great players you would make a great coach. Look at Boyd, what was his playing career?

I completely get that it doesnít often translate over. But most captains are there because theyíre the best in their position and lead from the front on the pitch.

Hartley is arguably behind Jamie George, Cowan Dickie, Jack Yeandle , even Haywood at
Saints. Yet still gets to be England captain and start ahead of them all. And not for his on field capabilities. But his leadership and work in the week behind the scenes. That points to offering something off the pitch, even if he canít offer it on the pitch like he used too.. that points to coaching to me.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Hartley
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 12:16
Letís re-engineer the question. How many of the worlds top coaches were national team captain, or captain or a very successful club side?

 
ajack
Re: Hartley
ajack (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 13:59
Pat Lam is the only one that springs to mind. Not sure if he would be classed as one of the worlds top coaches yet.

 
Dragonboy
Re: Hartley
Dragonboy (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 14:14
Tana Umaga.

 
St.Sinner
Re: Hartley
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 14:43
Leo Cullen ?

I personally think if thereís no intention of moving him into coaching at Saints , and retaining his Ďoff field leadershipí people love to say about... Retirement is the best option, he will struggle to even start in our team next season. Weíd be better served spending his wages elsewhere in the pack and playing Haywood with Fish & Marshall back up.

Only reason I asked the question about a bigger plan, and wanting to keep him around.. as to me it seems quite obvious having a high earner, Iíve read elsewhere he may even be one of our marquee players, who isnít even guaranteed to be the best player in his position within the squad, seems stupid.

Progressing him through to player/coach then coaching may of justified his place as we look to retain his leadership and behind the scenes work. If we look at him as just a player. He isnít worth the money any more. This isnít a dig at him, just with finances tight , heís offered the least value for money in number of appearances & impact during those few appearances.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2019 14:48 by St.Sinner.

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Hartley
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:46
The reasons to keep a top international are complicated. Having a big voice inside the England cap can be very helpful when your trying to get honors for your younger players (yes teams put effort into getting their guy picked, its part of running a top club) Also it sends a difficult message to other players if your seen to either not support top talent or not have the funds to keep a player. I think honestly though, in Dylans case he was still worth it when he last renewed. If he had not been injured then its hard to say how good he could have been this season. He does the basics very well. He leads well. Thats honestly enough for me from a complicated position like hooker.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Hartley
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 23:52
I'm smiling at the thought Dylan could easily be lifting the World Cup in a few months time and how wonderful that would be for him and for us to have a Saint as the World Cup winning captain.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Hartley
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 09:02
Quote:
SaintMaul
I'm smiling at the thought Dylan could easily be lifting the World Cup in a few months time and how wonderful that would be for him and for us to have a Saint as the World Cup winning captain.


easily.... hmmm... not sure about that. Nice thought though.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Hartley
Neil-H (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 09:22
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Quote:
SaintMaul
I'm smiling at the thought Dylan could easily be lifting the World Cup in a few months time and how wonderful that would be for him and for us to have a Saint as the World Cup winning captain.


easily.... hmmm... not sure about that. Nice thought though.

Not easily, but its not beyond the realms of possibility???

think I could be the closest contested world cup in a long time?

All Blacks still the team to beat and rightly favourites, but there for the taking more so this than any last two world cups

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Hartley
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 09:50
I will be there for the group games... just not sure Eddie knows the right team to play. Thereís a few friendlies I guess and you donít want to peak early.


I have a feeling that South Africa are a dark horse. Proper coach for once, massive pack and ball carriers, dangerous half backs and pace out wide...

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Hartley
Neil-H (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 11:53
Wilson

After beating NZ in NZ in Championship, Boks have to be in contention.

Ireland have they peaked, but on their day have shown they can beat NZ, they have twice in as many years, so cant be ruled out

Wales.. need to believe in themselves, a couple of big wins in group n quarter finals and get confidence flying, then who knows?

Agree with you about Eddie... injuries haven't helped much recently... Need both Billy n Mako fit, if we have all our ball carriers in pack fit?, think back row about sorted imho Underhill, Curry n Billy (Wilson on bench as covers all 3 spots)Ö lots of pace in back 3

Farrell should be 10, not 12... Will Manu be fit? but with Curry n Underhill, the need for a lump in centers isn't is much as a few years ago, when back row all 6.5s and we got slow ball and no one to truck it up in the middle

For me its finding the center partnership that's been his headache?

But England on their day can beat anyone?

France and Aussies?? its their coaches stopping them!

Argies could be interesting Jaguares having a great Super Tournament


Have you been to Japan???? I am so jealous, went twice for business last year, an incredible country!!! I just need win the lottery soon... or my mrs to agree we don't need a family holiday and I am going LOL

 
SaintGuy
Re: Hartley
SaintGuy (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 12:24
Quote:
Neil-H
Wilson
After beating NZ in NZ in Championship, Boks have to be in contention.

Ireland have they peaked, but on their day have shown they can beat NZ, they have twice in as many years, so cant be ruled out

Wales.. need to believe in themselves, a couple of big wins in group n quarter finals and get confidence flying, then who knows?

Agree with you about Eddie... injuries haven't helped much recently... Need both Billy n Mako fit, if we have all our ball carriers in pack fit?, think back row about sorted imho Underhill, Curry n Billy (Wilson on bench as covers all 3 spots)Ö lots of pace in back 3

Farrell should be 10, not 12... Will Manu be fit? but with Curry n Underhill, the need for a lump in centers isn't is much as a few years ago, when back row all 6.5s and we got slow ball and no one to truck it up in the middle

For me its finding the center partnership that's been his headache?

But England on their day can beat anyone?

France and Aussies?? its their coaches stopping them!

Argies could be interesting Jaguares having a great Super Tournament


Have you been to Japan???? I am so jealous, went twice for business last year, an incredible country!!! I just need win the lottery soon... or my mrs to agree we don't need a family holiday and I am going LOL

Agree with country analysis on this. Argentina seem to turn up at RWCs and France such an unknown quantity that I think they will also prove difficult. Slade has to be in there for the boot, at 13 if Manu plays, at 12 if Manu is injured (maybe with JJ at 13).

Hopefully heading out for quarters and further.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Hartley
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 13:04
Quote:
Neil-H
Wilson
After beating NZ in NZ in Championship, Boks have to be in contention.

Ireland have they peaked, but on their day have shown they can beat NZ, they have twice in as many years, so cant be ruled out

Wales.. need to believe in themselves, a couple of big wins in group n quarter finals and get confidence flying, then who knows?

Agree with you about Eddie... injuries haven't helped much recently... Need both Billy n Mako fit, if we have all our ball carriers in pack fit?, think back row about sorted imho Underhill, Curry n Billy (Wilson on bench as covers all 3 spots)Ö lots of pace in back 3

Farrell should be 10, not 12... Will Manu be fit? but with Curry n Underhill, the need for a lump in centers isn't is much as a few years ago, when back row all 6.5s and we got slow ball and no one to truck it up in the middle

For me its finding the center partnership that's been his headache?

But England on their day can beat anyone?

France and Aussies?? its their coaches stopping them!

Argies could be interesting Jaguares having a great Super Tournament


Have you been to Japan???? I am so jealous, went twice for business last year, an incredible country!!! I just need win the lottery soon... or my mrs to agree we don't need a family holiday and I am going LOL



my first time there, have a pretty chocked itinerary. Weekends in Tokyo then out to Kyoto and other rural stuff. I really enjoyed the cultural vortex of South Korea and Iím sure this wonít be any different!


Centres I think Slade has to start. No idea on the other...

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Hartley
Neil-H (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 13:45
Love South Korea to, but for me Japan is another step or 2 above it, youll love it.

Yes agree with Slade, he has found his place at 13 and finally consistently delivering what we thought he could? but 13 isn't the challenge its 12...

If fully fit, Manu at 12? slow ball, tank it up, Curry n Underhill up his bum, should be quick ball???.. please not Farrell at 12?

 
Saint Stokey
Re: Hartley
Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 13:57
then perhaps have the other Curry stowed away in the dressing room... just in case*


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