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HungryLikeTheWolf
Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:11
Rugby League legend at St Helens, and very successful attacking coach. It will take him a season to get up and running...

but this again shows another progressive intelligent and over-achieving coach in Gustard appreciating how the game is developing and getting ahead of the curve

This is the Crusaders last weekend, they are a blueprint for how the game will go. Exeter beware

[m.youtube.com]

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:23
I agree 100%.

Rugby is an entertainment business. It is funded mostly by TV and they want open running rugby to sell.

There will always be a balance between forward and backs but (hopefully) the days of monsters smashing into each other are dead. I expect there will be law changes soon to improve the scrum.

 
ajack
Re: Sean Long to Quins
ajack (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:42
Personally I would much sooner watch a game like Sarries v Exeter or the European cup final to that. When tackling and defence are taken out of rugby it becomes pretty dull pretty quick IMO.

 
Saint Stokey
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:52
In the case of the recent Crusaders game, their defence was amazing! But it was the speed that they turned defense into attack and how clinical they were.

There were a number of 'flair' moments, without being careless with the ball. They were, like Sarries, ruthlessly efficient.

It pains me to say it, but I think Sarries are becoming a more and more entertaining side of late. They are moving further from the massive pack being the sole source of dominance; they jast happen to have a massive pack.

Where we excel it the handling and pace of our backs. A preseason and another season of gelling and our backs could be a ruthless as any in the Prem, if not Europe. On paper, we have the personnel and in Boyd & Vesty, we are fast getting the coaches.

The scrums aren't the only issue, its the repeated pick and goes that kill the game, are pretty much undefendable without getting carded, and the abomination that is the 'caterpillar ruck' thing before box kicking.

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:53
Quote:
ajack
Personally I would much sooner watch a game like Sarries v Exeter or the European cup final to that. When tackling and defence are taken out of rugby it becomes pretty dull pretty quick IMO.

I need to make clear that I love a good pick and drive, maul, scrum, hard tackle etc. But there needs to be a balance. There was a trend in the early 2000s towards picking a bunch of ogres and skills like "having a step" and "passing in the tackle" were some how exceptional skills. I am not a huge fan of some of the rugby on display in the southern hemisphere where tackling looks optional BUT overall the tide is turning back towards skilled players taking risks and keeping the ball alive. Thing is, having watched us play this year I dont want to go back to where we were.

 
ch saint
Re: Sean Long to Quins
ch saint (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:54
Some people prefer to see the brute strength of forwards crashing into each other and I can see the attraction if your teams has the brute strength and the requisite skill, but I prefer to see open rugby which is why I am so happy with last seasons developments at the Gardens.
The referee has a big influence on the style of any particular game, continuous scrum resets, apparent sealing off the ruck, going over the top etc, they all go against free flowing rugby.
The big question is what strategy Chris B adopts to counter absolute weight and power advantage. Next year we will have two enormous backs coming into the squad (Harry and Andy Symonds) plus Proctor, I assume they will have an influence, but our backs have been outstanding without those three, we will almost have too many. How will we get some degree of parity in the forwards to enable our SH style open play result in trophies?
Also I wonder how the Crusaders would perform against Sarries?

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:54
Quote:
ajack
Personally I would much sooner watch a game like Sarries v Exeter or the European cup final to that. When tackling and defence are taken out of rugby it becomes pretty dull pretty quick IMO.


Rebels are poor so I would recommend watching Crusaders vs Highlanders, Stormers etc.

There is a middle ground but the attacking play is another level to anything in Europe, even Clermont.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:57
Another point, wasnít the great Welsh team of the 70s of course very hard up front but so much skill and attack.

The pro game saw a move to Ďogre ballí, who has the biggest and strongest rather than using space. Going through tackles rather than past them.

This is a refreshing watch

[m.youtube.com]


and indeed letís hope France goes back to the days when they were as dangerous from their own 22 as anywhere else. Far too much forward dominated, big backs stuff over the last decade. More Blanco less Bastareaud please



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2019 16:00 by Wilson Pickett.

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 16:03
Quote:
Saint Stokey
the abomination that is the 'caterpillar ruck' thing before box kicking.

Yes, i thought we banned that bleedin' thing years ago... Saracens did it we were all up in arms.. Now everyone is back at it.

 
Walks11
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Walks11 (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 12:20
isn't one of the appeals of the game (or at least for me) is that its a game for all shapes and sizes? the fat boys up front, the big lump and beanpoles in the 2nd row, gnarly horrible ones in the back row and the nippy boys in the backs. I know professionalism has meant that all these guys are fit as a fiddle and can run all day but its still clinging onto the all shapes mantra for now. Lose the grunt up front and we are in danger of ending up a bit like rugby league, a load of similarly sized blokes bashing into or around each other. I get very bored quite quickly with southern hemisphere rugby and that is not to belittle the skills on show.

As for Sean Long it feels like a very good signing.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 13:01
Who said lose the grunt? Crusaders have a nearly all black pack.....


but they donít box kick 50% of possession, always look for space, create space, offload, everyone comfortable on the ball.


Possession vs Territory

 
Duckonstilts
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 13:18
Yes Walks, exactly why we dont want 15 flankers running around the pitch. The fact so many good wingers have been considered "too small" for England has been a real shame. All that matters is you get past the defenders. Big T and Tom C do it in very different ways but both are effective.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 13:56
Quote:
Duckonstilts
Yes Walks, exactly why we dont want 15 flankers running around the pitch. The fact so many good wingers have been considered "too small" for England has been a real shame. All that matters is you get past the defenders. Big T and Tom C do it in very different ways but both are effective.


+1 ogreball

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 14:12
Another angle which I have empathy for is injuries. I was chatting to Callum Clark around the autumn and he was recovering from a broken forearm. I think he said 3 other first team players at that time at Sarries had the same injury caused by having to tackle with the arms but having to tackle increasingly big men running fast! I also remember an ex player telling me how they hated having to run into human walls every week in the latter years of Jim and Dorian.

So anything that moves slightly away from that crash bang contact style is good for players too...

 
ajack
Re: Sean Long to Quins
ajack (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 15:52
Any physical contact sport is going to face that dilemma. As players become fitter, bigger and faster impact will increase and player safety will always be a concern. There are many ways player safety could be increased but all or at least all I can think of would take away from the game I love.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 16:57
what examples do you have Ajack, I ask that because one would probably have said the same thing about tackles above horizontal, accidental collisions in the air, any contact to the head even if slipping up etc.... but not sure any of those have detracted that much? There is no right or wrong here of course...


I donít think we want a long list of brain damaged or broken bodied men in 20 years time.... if you compare the size of players now from the start of professionalism, itís quite stark. Would Nadolo have had the same impact as Lomu?


thank you for your interesting and reasoned responses



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2019 16:58 by Wilson Pickett.

 
ajack
Re: Sean Long to Quins
ajack (IP Logged)
12 June, 2019 07:37
Well for a start the scrum is always going to be an area with the potential of serious injuries, so that could be done away with or just turned into a leaning contest that just ties in 8 players from each side. Rucks are another high injury area so eliminate them to something more akin to league.

How far do you want to take it? Make the game touch and eliminate all tackling if you then said no running only walking, with those two simple changes you could virtually eliminate all injuries but not sure what you would be left with. Mind you touch is played up and down the country and walking is an Olympic event so who knows?

If player welfare is the real aim then reducing the number of games they play is the real answer, but we all know money is more important than player welfare don't we?

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
12 June, 2019 09:21
Oh come on now youíre being silly


no-one is suggesting no tackling, no scrums etc. Just contrasting styles where playing one way makes and runs into space rather than straight into people.

 
Walks11
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Walks11 (IP Logged)
12 June, 2019 09:29
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Who said lose the grunt? Crusaders have a nearly all black pack.....

but they donít box kick 50% of possession, always look for space, create space, offload, everyone comfortable on the ball.


Possession vs Territory

but surely that's the way its heading if you are suggesting a fast moving game as per super rugby. Im not saying now or in 3 years time but if there is less 'up the jumper' rugby and less reliance on mauls eventually the bean pole will not be required, the fat lad will not be required, etc.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
12 June, 2019 09:33
There are still lineouts = beanpole
There are still scrums = fat lad

They just create space and keep the ball rather than run into people and kick everything

 
ajack
Re: Sean Long to Quins
ajack (IP Logged)
12 June, 2019 10:00
Is there any evidence that Saints had less injuries this year due to playing a more open style of play? Compare Saints injury list to say Exeter and it would seem the exact opposite is true or maybe possession is the key less injuries attacking rather than defending?

Interesting interview with Chris Ashton the other day about joining Toulon and how much less intense the training was there compared to Sarries who apparently train to game level intensity given that and a pitch that supposedly increases injuries they seem to not have too many.

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
12 June, 2019 10:25
Thatís a good point but we havenít see the broad transition to a space creation game from an attrition game, yet. I mentioned players in 20 years time having less broken bodies and brains, we wonít know until we get there. Iím assuming the game in general goes towards use of space, which overall should help. Of course if Exeter want to send 19 stone blokes running into 18 stone blokes for 80 minutes I suspect some of the 18 stone pick up injuries.

I was chatting to a guy who had a couple of years in the Top 14

Pain au Chocolat and a cigarette for breakfast, much less conditioning work

in a romantic way I kind of like that approach

 
SaintGuy
Re: Sean Long to Quins
SaintGuy (IP Logged)
12 June, 2019 13:44
Quote:
ajack
Interesting interview with Chris Ashton the other day about joining Toulon and how much less intense the training was there compared to Sarries who apparently train to game level intensity given that and a pitch that supposedly increases injuries they seem to not have too many.

They barely train in France. Most players who go there say the standard of nutrition, recovery etc is 10-15 years behind everyone. Sale I believe have 1 contact training session a week and they're injury list is low and with their squad size being fairly small, that works well for them.

 
St.Sinner
Re: Sean Long to Quins
St.Sinner (IP Logged)
12 June, 2019 21:23
i Donít think contact is needed in the week, skill work and tactics should be focussed on. These lads know how to play. The fresher they are for a weekend the better. Upskilling position specific work, and touch Rugby will do. A solid pre game warm up will get them contact ready. Donít see the need for hammering bodies all week myself.

 
ajack
Re: Sean Long to Quins
ajack (IP Logged)
13 June, 2019 07:44
Sarries trophy cabinet would suggest that is not true, assuming winning is rated above player welfare. To be fair Sarries injury list seems no bigger than the average either.

 
Walks11
Re: Sean Long to Quins
Walks11 (IP Logged)
13 June, 2019 12:34
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
There are still lineouts = beanpole
There are still scrums = fat lad

They just create space and keep the ball rather than run into people and kick everything

you missed it again.. I'm not saying there isn't now im saying that's where it will been 5-10 yrs because there will be less reliance on both


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