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MESSAGES->author
Average gates
Chris Hoddle (IP Logged)
08 July, 2019 19:12
Not sure this has been posted before, if it is I hope it gets deleted.
From the Bristol Live [www.bristolpost.co.uk]

I would say there is room for improvement for the Saints and with the way we have started to play lets hope that an improvement will be seen.
We are 7th.
Average attendance at home stadiums (Total Attendance)
Leicester Tigers – 20,987 (230,855)
Bristol Bears – 16,348 (179,827)
Wasps – 16,160 (177,761)
Gloucester – 14,378 (158,158)
Bath - 14,192 (141,924)
Harlequins – 13,044 (130,435)
Northampton Saints – 12,936 (129,356)
Exeter Chiefs – 12,037 (144,446)
Saracens – 9,191 (101,098)
Worcester Warriors – 8,287 (91,162)
Newcastle Falcons – 7,354 (73,542)
Sale Sharks – 6,586 (72,443)

This figure was calculated using Premiership match reports, excluding games which were all played at larger venues away from clubs' home grounds; rounded to the nearest number.
Games excluded are:
The Clash (Bath v Bristol - 60,152 at Twickenham)
Big Game 11 (Harlequins v Wasps - 82,000 at Twickenham)
The Derby (Leicester v Northampton - 40,013 at Twickenham)



http://chrishoddle.smugmug.com/photos/i-TsCHdzK/0/M/i-TsCHdzK-M.gif

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Average gates
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
08 July, 2019 19:23
Suspect Wasps flattered by very low pricing

 
tedge
Re: Average gates
tedge (IP Logged)
08 July, 2019 21:48
If Saints do well they should get the crowds up to near 15k on a regular basis.It's a bit harder these days partly because I think the number of travelling away fans has dropped off due to tv coverage.

 
Dragonboy
Re: Average gates
Dragonboy (IP Logged)
08 July, 2019 21:59
Even more interesting that Sarries and Exeter as our two “top clubs” feature so lowly. Maybe in Exes case it’s because they are not in a population rich catchment area even allowing for the lack of competition. As for Sorries? Well looking at UK based stats eg attendances well maybe there’s nothing special going on there now anymore and now that everyone plays according to the Salary Cap Rules. Just seems though that they can’t bring supporters in at the gates though. As an aside. Has anyone news on the latest cover up of the latest “alleged salary cap breeches? I’m hazarding a guess that a certain someone may have been declared not to be the messiah but has been declared in private to be a very naughty boy. Who chuckled quietly to himself as he boarded his private jet to fly off to ***** classified due to a bung to someone to sort this ***** where he will holiday in a style we can only dream of .............

 
shiversaint
Re: Average gates
shiversaint (IP Logged)
08 July, 2019 23:06
I'm staggered by Saracens. I knew it wasn't great but that is unbelievably low.

I also think the Derby figure is a lot lower than it should have been, when you look at an average attendance for tigers + saints, you're at 32/3k. Vs the other big games at HQ, our game did very poorly for gate numbers.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Average gates
SaintMaul (IP Logged)
08 July, 2019 23:32
Attendances for teams with large supporter catchment areas like Sarries, Quins, Bristol will continue to grow IMHO.

I wouldn't expect to see town teams like us, Tigers, Gloucester grow much bigger attendances. Town teams have doubled average attendances since the game went professional. But my suspicion is easy growth has already been mined and growth will significantly slow for town teams over the next 20 years. Whereas teams with larger catchments in rugby hotspots will see greater growth.

7th ain't bad 23 years after the dawn of professionalism. Equally it shows how hard it will be for our club, with no sugar daddy, and bottom half of the table average attendances to compete for top 4 where money talks.

 
Seamo
Re: Average gates
Seamo (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 08:33
I may be wrong but I thought Sandy Park only has a capacity of just under 13,000. If so the Exeter figure isn't too bad.

It's a Catch-22 but in ensuring season tickets continue to represent good value, Saints have started to look pretty pricey for the occasional supporter which doesn't help fill the ground.

 
Saint Ted
Re: Average gates
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 08:54
It's tough to draw a fair conclusion based on just the average figures, a club can only sell as many tickets as it has capacity for and that is what they will need to be aiming for, that figure then needs to be sustained for a period of time before you increase the capacity, then hope your team doesn't go off the boil and you're left with a half empty stand and average figures below you're previous capacity.

So for comparison, here are the average gate percentages based on the figures from Chris and the capacities listed in Wikipedia, it's a very different read

https://i.imgur.com/bkcKEas.jpg

 
Saint Stokey
Re: Average gates
Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 09:01
I think, as you mentioned, the one off tickets can get pricey, so a Season Ticket makes it more affordable to regularly attend.

However, it would appear that the last few seasons of poor rugby have encouraged people to shy away. Hopefully, lasts seasons successes and entertaining rugby will draw supporters back so that we have a decent crowd again.

I do think that the pricing structure is a little off though. The South Stand has always been less expensive than the Churches or Carlsberg, and i think that the Barwell Stand should reflect the South. If there is ever a large gap in the stands, its more than likely to be in the Barwell.

I do like the large temporary signage that has been put up at times to mask this.


Fingers crossed, this season we'll be back to our noisey norm.

 
fair_weather_fan
Re: Average gates
fair_weather_fan (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 09:17
Ticket revenue per attendee would be an interesting statistic to see. Some changes in the list then, with Saints climbing.

 
Seamo
Re: Average gates
Seamo (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 10:22
As Saint Stokey says, pre-Boyd the rugby was pretty forgettable which didn't help pull in the punters.

As an ex-season ticket holder, I appreciate the value argument for making season tickets look cost-effective but this seems to mean that we have to discourage ad-hoc supporters by making one-off match tickets correspondingly more expensive.

I can't commit to a season ticket right now, particularly with the TV scheduling issues, but I'd be up for making 3 or 4 games a season when I can now that Chris Boyd has got some proper rugby back at the Gardens.

I am, however, put off by being quoted £50+ a ticket whenever I look into it.

 
Saint Stokey
Re: Average gates
Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 10:58
I remember that there was a 'half season' ticket. Perhaps they should do this again... for the first half then again for the second... perhaps paying a make up to full season ticket if the the first 'half season' ticket has been purchased?

Do the Season Tickets still have a pay in monthly installments option?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Average gates
Abington Adam (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 11:10
Stokey, yes you could pay for your season ticket by Direct Debit, but I think that option has expired now.



COME ON YOU SAINTS!
Church's Stand season ticket holder
EMRU Referee

 
HungryLikeTheWolf
Re: Average gates
Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 11:47
Quote:
Saint Ted
It's tough to draw a fair conclusion based on just the average figures, a club can only sell as many tickets as it has capacity for and that is what they will need to be aiming for, that figure then needs to be sustained for a period of time before you increase the capacity, then hope your team doesn't go off the boil and you're left with a half empty stand and average figures below you're previous capacity.
So for comparison, here are the average gate percentages based on the figures from Chris and the capacities listed in Wikipedia, it's a very different read

https://i.imgur.com/bkcKEas.jpg



another train journey, Mr Portillo ?

 
Walks11
Re: Average gates
Walks11 (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 11:55
Quote:
Saint Ted
It's tough to draw a fair conclusion based on just the average figures, a club can only sell as many tickets as it has capacity for and that is what they will need to be aiming for, that figure then needs to be sustained for a period of time before you increase the capacity, then hope your team doesn't go off the boil and you're left with a half empty stand and average figures below you're previous capacity.
So for comparison, here are the average gate percentages based on the figures from Chris and the capacities listed in Wikipedia, it's a very different read

https://i.imgur.com/bkcKEas.jpg

Thanks Ted, I think that's more meaningful.

90%+ is probably a good target. I would expect our % against capacity to rise this season. I would also expect our season ticket quota to be on the rise again. exciting rugby rather than food, drink, etc is always the telling factor

 
Saint Ted
Re: Average gates
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 12:07
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Quote:
Saint Ted
It's tough to draw a fair conclusion based on just the average figures, a club can only sell as many tickets as it has capacity for and that is what they will need to be aiming for, that figure then needs to be sustained for a period of time before you increase the capacity, then hope your team doesn't go off the boil and you're left with a half empty stand and average figures below you're previous capacity.
So for comparison, here are the average gate percentages based on the figures from Chris and the capacities listed in Wikipedia, it's a very different read

https://i.imgur.com/bkcKEas.jpg


another train journey, Mr Portillo ?

Not this time, I'd just rather do anything other than my actual job at the minute!

I tried doing the average cost per ticket but info for last season is hard to come by and the 2017/2018 data doesn't seem to support the narrative that saints are more expensive than everyone else

 
ajack
Re: Average gates
ajack (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 12:41
As with just about everything you can spin it one way or the other to suit the point you are trying to make. On the face of it Sarries and Chiefs don't look great especially given the form they have shown over the past few years but to get within 900 of capacity has to be pretty good. I think Saints were second a few seasons ago behind Tigers so do seem to have slipped a bit but I know Wasps discount heavily maybe others do as well? Interesting info from Chris and Ted.

 
Sara'sman
Re: Average gates
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 13:35
Some interesting posts.

Quote:
Saint Ted
I tried doing the average cost per ticket but info for last season is hard to come by and the 2017/2018 data doesn't seem to support the narrative that saints are more expensive than everyone else

Ted - imo your "behind the posts" prices are a little on the steep side, "side-on" much better value especially with an early bird discount. You may be interested to take a look at a few of the comparisons that I've made over at our place while watching the cricket - see here.

Chris - should your OP also mention that other "big" games have been excluded - ours v Quins and Falcons' "Big One" for example?

 
alexc
Re: Average gates
AlexC (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 13:58
I suspect had the tigers match been played at Franklin’s Gardens our average (assuming that would have been a sell out) would be a tad higher, though by only a few hundred I would guess but would probably put us closer to Bath and above Quins.

 
Saint Ted
Re: Average gates
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 14:01
Quote:
Sara'sman
Some interesting posts.
Quote:
Saint Ted
I tried doing the average cost per ticket but info for last season is hard to come by and the 2017/2018 data doesn't seem to support the narrative that saints are more expensive than everyone else

Ted - imo your "behind the posts" prices are a little on the steep side, "side-on" much better value especially with an early bird discount. You may be interested to take a look at a few of the comparisons that I've made over at our place while watching the cricket - see here.

Chris - should your OP also mention that other "big" games have been excluded - ours v Quins and Falcons' "Big One" for example?

Thanks for pointing out your stats, based on that ( I only looked at us, tigers, sarries and quins) Average price for a full price paying adult is exactly the same as Tigers and £2 more than Sarries, either I've done something wrong or Quins average is a lot lower by the best part of £80

That said looking at average cost of a season ticket across the stadium throws up all manor of problems as we don't know what tickets have been sold at what price, our new pricing structure for young adults kind of screws it totally

So based on full price adult Saints are £505, but based on the whole structure it's £269, but there are too many variables and not enough knowns for me to give any worthwhile stats (I too have been doing this whilst watching the cricket!)

 
Saint Ted
Re: Average gates
Saint Ted (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 14:07
Quote:
AlexC
I suspect had the tigers match been played at Franklin’s Gardens our average (assuming that would have been a sell out) would be a tad higher, though by only a few hundred I would guess but would probably put us closer to Bath and above Quins.

That would put our average at 13145, 86.2% of tickets sold so higher in the average attendance but unaffected in the sense of percentage of tickets sold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2019 14:08 by Saint Ted.

 
tboullem
Re: Average gates
Houghton Saint (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 15:36
Lets face it, it is an expensive business to watch Premiership rugby and the market is finite. As others have said, Saints can pull in 11-12 thousand without too much trouble but making that jump towards capacity is a big ask, week in, week out. I also have a perception that less people travel to away games these days due part to expense allied to the fact that there is probably a 50% chance that your teams away match will be on BT.

Saints have tried some innovative marketing to attract younger fans but they still miss the plot in some other areas. Obviously success on the field of play will induce larger crowds at the Gardens and some England success at the RWC would give a feelgood boost across the board.

 
ajack
Re: Average gates
ajack (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 16:03
I would imagine the fact that any game can be a Friday evening, Saturday early or late afternoon or evening or a Sunday afternoon would also put people off of buying a season ticket but that would be true across all clubs.

 
tedge
Re: Average gates
tedge (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 16:58
When Saints won the league and other trophies the capacity was around 2k lower than now and I think there were numerous sell-outs and the average must have been well over 90% of capacity. When demolition of the Sturtridge was mooted the plan was to increase capacity to 17k plus and quite a few people thought even that was unambitious. Eventually the Board in its wisdom reined it back to what it is now.

Unfortunately the completion of the new stand coincided with a decline in performance and associated drop in ST sales as well as walk up customers. As a result we have until now found it difficult to achieve sell-outs - I can only recall one attendance in excess of 15k in the last three seasons and as we see from the stats the average has dropped to a new low. As I mentioned earlier the drop is compounded by (purely my perception) that the numbers of away fans has also dropped, due mainly to tv coverage plus its impact on days of play.

With the benefit of hindsight the Board was right to be cautious with its expansion plans. I still think sell-outs on a regular basis are feasible but depend almost entirely on what happens on the pitch.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Average gates
Abington Adam (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 17:29
A good showing from England at the World Cup would do the game a lot of good, and have a positive effect on attendances. I'm not highly confident it will happen though!



COME ON YOU SAINTS!
Church's Stand season ticket holder
EMRU Referee

 
Saint Stokey
Re: Average gates
Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 21:10
So far the new board has acquitted themselves admirably. The sturt ridge demolishion was under the old regime so we can't blame the current board.

Like almost every other decision, I fully expect that the right ones will be made and coinciding with an upturn in entertainment and success, we will see increased attendances sooner rather than later.

Have faith.

 
JohnI
Re: Average gates
JohnI (IP Logged)
09 July, 2019 23:52
Not convinced when I see attendance figures as we have all seen the way they tend to be reported against what looks a very low attendance inside the ground. I always had the impression that if you had 12000 ST holders then you started with 12000 and then the rest who bought tickets for the game were added as opposed to the number that ACTUALLY attended the match. Attendance to means numbers through the turnstiles and not ST holders and all else buying tickets.

 
ajack
Re: Average gates
ajack (IP Logged)
10 July, 2019 07:42
I thought it always was tickets sold not people attending so ST holders count as turning up to every game that the ticket is valid for as well as others who don't turn up for whatever reason.

 
tedge
Re: Average gates
tedge (IP Logged)
10 July, 2019 11:02
Quote:
ajack
I thought it always was tickets sold not people attending so ST holders count as turning up to every game that the ticket is valid for as well as others who don't turn up for whatever reason.

As far as ST' holders are concerned I doubt that the numbers of them absent for any one league match would make a significant difference to the actual attendees figures.If they are assumed to be there probably not more than a couple of hundred would be missing (for a variety of reasons). This wouldn't apply to cup matches necessarily as people are more selective.


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