Old Prop Steve
Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Old Prop Steve
By Old Prop Steve
May 17 2009
Over the years coaches have devised ever more exotic lineout signals, which would have kept those old Bletchley code breakers happily employed for days, but these often seem to confuse their own teams almost as much as the opposition.
Old Prop Steve
May 17 2009
Over the years coaches have devised ever more exotic lineout signals, which would have kept those old Bletchley code breakers happily employed for days, but these often seem to confuse their own teams almost as much as the opposition.
STEVE'S
BLOG - The
Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop.
Reproduced with the permission of the Cornish Pirates May 17th 2009
Reproduced with the permission of the Cornish Pirates May 17th 2009
Steve's
Blog will be a feature of the new Pirates website (coming soon), but for now everyone
will have chance to read & join in here
How can you improve the odds in the lineout lottery?
Do you find that one of the most frustrating aspects of following the Pirates- or indeed any other team that you might feel passionately about - comes after a simple chance of penalty points is turned down?
Often this is absolutely the right thing to do, depending upon the score at the time and the weather conditions, but so often the kick to touch is followed by a lineout which is either lost or the hooker is penalised for a crooked throw.
It generally drives me and seemingly those sitting around me absolutely nuts.
Last
season the Pirates had their various 'ups and downs' (weak pun intended) but in
fact their general lineout play improved markedly.
We saw much more consistent throwing from Rob Elloway and Darren Dawidiuk and a lot of well-timed jumping from Heino and Ben Gulliver as well as from the back row.
Mark Hewitt had his critics but he clearly did a very good job in this particular area.
One derided and discarded ELV last season was the one where a team did not have to match the opposition numbers at a throw in. Did any coach whether at International or GPL level let alone in National One ever seek to exploit this opportunity in any fundamental or creative way? Indeed was this particular ELV ever given a proper trial? I think not.
Over the years coaches have devised ever more exotic lineout signals, which would have kept those old Bletchley code breakers happily employed for days, but these often seem to confuse their own teams almost as much as the opposition.
Few of us who were at Coventry a few seasons ago could ever forget the sight of nineteen stone Will James being hoisted way up into the blue yonder - only for Peter Ince to hurl the ball unerringly at that troublesome little spot about midway between his navel and his knees!
The loss of any subsequent advantage following a penalty award so frequently also seems to o a little against natural justice. For once it would seem that it is not the Laws but the tactics employed and the referee's latitude which need some more thought.
One of the more eccentric lineout ploys I can recall was many years ago playing for John Gendall's Pirates Third XV at - yes you've guessed it - St. Day. We were winning by about fifty points and poor old St. Day had hardly won a lineout for the entire afternoon. With a brilliant flash of inspired genius their captain then yelled out "This time EVERYBODY jump" which they duly did and all of them bobbed dutifully into the air like a row of self-conscious Morris dancers.
Standing opposite me was a little ginger fellow with very bad teeth who I swear wasn't an inch over five feet high. He gazed up at me and grunted "This is a really stupid ****ing idea mate". Before I could even nod in total agreement he leaped up in the air and landed right on my foot. Needless to say the ball sailed harmlessly over everyone's heads and I then spent the last few minutes hobbling about in a futile attempt to keep up with the play. Oh happy days!
So what sort of things might actually improve a team's performance in this area? Four simple things spring to mind but I am sure there are many others.
Have clear lineout calls which even aged prop forwards can understand. As soon as they are twigged by the opposition then go to a second code and even a third but 'keep it simple stupid'.
Have the best thrower of a rugby ball doing the throwing in. Ignore the custom and practice that it has to be the hooker.
Be more prepared to have cut down four man lineouts. They are not always a good idea but can work well in windy conditions, close to ones own line (where the other four only have to retreat to the try line whereas the opposition have to retreat ten yards) or if you are already losing the lineout battle and want to try something different.
Referees to be a little bit more sympathetic with throw-ins especially after a penalty. For some reason they turn a blind eye to the most blatant crooked feeds into scrums yet can be real nit-pickers when it comes to throw-ins.
What do others think?
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Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Posted by: Unofficial Pirates (IP Logged)
Date: 17/05/2009 11:52
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Re: Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Posted by: DJ Pirate (IP Logged)
Date: 17/05/2009 12:15
Can only stand out on the wing and and agree with you Steve, once again another great insight to the game we love.
105 Days til the Harlequins match
105 Days til the Harlequins match
Re: Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Posted by: *Stalwart (IP Logged)
Date: 17/05/2009 13:01
Another entertaining and thought provoking blog, thanks Steve.
The issue of "not straight" is a puzzling one. As you say, why be so strict on the lineout throw, but ignore the feed to the scrum?
The lineout is a bit less of a jungle these days, and is genuinely competitive. Smart players and coaches can benefit by "nicking" opposition ball, which often creates brilliant attacking opportunities. But a little more leniency on the throw would be a positive thing - especially, as you say, after penalties have been kicked to touch.
The issue of "not straight" is a puzzling one. As you say, why be so strict on the lineout throw, but ignore the feed to the scrum?
The lineout is a bit less of a jungle these days, and is genuinely competitive. Smart players and coaches can benefit by "nicking" opposition ball, which often creates brilliant attacking opportunities. But a little more leniency on the throw would be a positive thing - especially, as you say, after penalties have been kicked to touch.
Re: Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Posted by: covmick1/Michael Carter (IP Logged)
Date: 17/05/2009 13:20
Good read, My Rugby career was akin to the Michael Green coarse rugby style. But great days and good friendships where formed. Great memories like yours Steve, Keep them coming. On the question of message boards it is through these that I and countless others have made friends up and down the land and still meeting some great and wonderful people.
covmick/Michael Carter
covmick/Michael Carter
Re: Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Posted by: harbourview (IP Logged)
Date: 17/05/2009 14:28
I think the main point I would make is that lineouts have improved massively in recent years - especially at the higher levels of the game. It is really interesting to see clips of old international games, even relatively recently, and to see what a shambles they used to be - often referred to as the problem child of rugby union.
I agree about the strange fascination of always having the hooker through in - go back a little while and it used to be the wingers. Maybe its just that us hookers tended to be too short to jump. When Daniel Dubrocca - a converted prop and generally a beast of a man was playing for France - he would let the scrum half throw in and stand in the half back position himself, more often than not driving through the midle of the line. That would probably be a good tactic these days as forwards fan across the field more and are reluctant to commit to the breakdown.
I do thing referess should ping crooked throws and also that the ball should be put into the middle of the channel at the scrum.
I agree about the strange fascination of always having the hooker through in - go back a little while and it used to be the wingers. Maybe its just that us hookers tended to be too short to jump. When Daniel Dubrocca - a converted prop and generally a beast of a man was playing for France - he would let the scrum half throw in and stand in the half back position himself, more often than not driving through the midle of the line. That would probably be a good tactic these days as forwards fan across the field more and are reluctant to commit to the breakdown.
I do thing referess should ping crooked throws and also that the ball should be put into the middle of the channel at the scrum.
Re: Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Posted by: cheshire exile (IP Logged)
Date: 17/05/2009 16:09
With the ELV permitting collapsing of the rolling maul being discarded for next season, I think we can expect to see more kicks-to-the-corner next year.Steve's points are [yet again] highly pertinent, particularly the attitude towards crooked throws compared to scrum put-ins.
Yesterday's Premiership final, otherwise reffed excellently by Wayne Barnes, saw some more blatant examples of feeding.
I did hear a suggestion that the ref watches the binding whilst the touchjudges[sorry, assistant refs] watch the backlines to make sure they're keeping their distance, but surely watching the put in cannot be beyond the collective wit of 3 officials?
Yesterday's Premiership final, otherwise reffed excellently by Wayne Barnes, saw some more blatant examples of feeding.
I did hear a suggestion that the ref watches the binding whilst the touchjudges[sorry, assistant refs] watch the backlines to make sure they're keeping their distance, but surely watching the put in cannot be beyond the collective wit of 3 officials?
Re: Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Posted by: *Stalwart (IP Logged)
Date: 17/05/2009 16:12
Mick -
Hope you had a good weekend in Kernow. Not sure if you got my PMs about supermarkets, fish and chips and pasties - but I'm sure you didn't starve anyway!
Hope you had a good weekend in Kernow. Not sure if you got my PMs about supermarkets, fish and chips and pasties - but I'm sure you didn't starve anyway!
Re: Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Posted by: Pirate Pig. (IP Logged)
Date: 17/05/2009 17:55
Another great blog,Steve,a famous line out story involving the Lions in South Africa,when the late great Gordon Brown said that the Lions in '74' had agreed to 'hit' the nearest springbok at the 1st line out in the test match.
Brown then punched his giant springbok opponent,who unknown to him,had a glass eye,the punch knocked the eye out and the game was then held up,whilst all the forwards got down on their hands and knee's to find it and return it to the owner.
It was duly found and the Springbok lock but it back in but unfortunately not the right way and with a blade of grass attached to it,which Brown couldn't help staring at during every line out!!!
You couldn't make it up at a time when the line out was a bit of a lottery and jungle rules took place over the laws of the game.
I'm sure there was a further occassion when in a test match,all the Japanese forwards started jumping up and down(obviously having watched the video of the St Day match)
so their opponents joined in only for the ball to be thrown in along the ground for their scrum half to pick up and pass out to his fly half,fantastic,I'm sure the laws are made for Referee's to enforce and coaches and players to get around by whatever means.
Looking forward to the next one
Brown then punched his giant springbok opponent,who unknown to him,had a glass eye,the punch knocked the eye out and the game was then held up,whilst all the forwards got down on their hands and knee's to find it and return it to the owner.
It was duly found and the Springbok lock but it back in but unfortunately not the right way and with a blade of grass attached to it,which Brown couldn't help staring at during every line out!!!
You couldn't make it up at a time when the line out was a bit of a lottery and jungle rules took place over the laws of the game.
I'm sure there was a further occassion when in a test match,all the Japanese forwards started jumping up and down(obviously having watched the video of the St Day match)
so their opponents joined in only for the ball to be thrown in along the ground for their scrum half to pick up and pass out to his fly half,fantastic,I'm sure the laws are made for Referee's to enforce and coaches and players to get around by whatever means.
Looking forward to the next one
Re: Steve's Blog The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop
Posted by: Yog (IP Logged)
Date: 17/05/2009 18:54
Good article Steve. A number of things to think about and comment on.
As for lineout calls, I have noticed in the last season a lot of teams in the Prem and Nat-1 have adopted the foolproof method of having someone walk up to the hooker and whisper what the play will be. Not rocket science, but it works, and the poor Hooker doesn't have to worry about hearing the right call above the chant of "Pirates, Pirates right behind him
One thing that would improve the quality of lineouts considerably would be to cut out the really long throws, especially on windy days. I know why it is done, because if it works it gives the last man a lot of space to attack into, but the longer the throw, the longer the ball is in the air and the longer the other team has to react to it. Also the longer the ball is in the air, the more chance the elements can push it off straight. It drives me absolutely bug s**t when we win the lineout in a good position, throw it long, and have the other team manage to get to it first. If the weather is bad or the other team have a strong lineout, then keep it short !!
I know what you mean about the Ref's showing a little leniency on the throw-in, as they seem to do with scrum put-ins. The whole reason there is a lineout is because one team has done something wrong, so from that point of view you don't want the lineout to be 100% even, or there wouldn't be any point in not putting the ball out at every opportunity. You might argue that being able to determine where the ball is thrown into is advantage enough, but I'm sure that we've all seen teams that have totally dominated the lineout, whether it was their throw-in or not.
On the other hand it would be hard to administer a rule that allowed a "degree" of not straight, it would be an absolute nightmare for Refs.
I did see a match recently where the Ref stopped the game for a lineout not being straight. as it happened the wind took the ball and fractionally blew it towards the opposing team who caught it cleanly and who were about to make good yardage with it, so the re-start went to the opposing team. If we can't rely on some Ref's showing even this amount of common sense, how would they manage a "degree" of not straight allowance.
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Why are we called "The Pirates" ? ....... Because we Arrrggghhh!!!
As for lineout calls, I have noticed in the last season a lot of teams in the Prem and Nat-1 have adopted the foolproof method of having someone walk up to the hooker and whisper what the play will be. Not rocket science, but it works, and the poor Hooker doesn't have to worry about hearing the right call above the chant of "Pirates, Pirates right behind him
One thing that would improve the quality of lineouts considerably would be to cut out the really long throws, especially on windy days. I know why it is done, because if it works it gives the last man a lot of space to attack into, but the longer the throw, the longer the ball is in the air and the longer the other team has to react to it. Also the longer the ball is in the air, the more chance the elements can push it off straight. It drives me absolutely bug s**t when we win the lineout in a good position, throw it long, and have the other team manage to get to it first. If the weather is bad or the other team have a strong lineout, then keep it short !!
I know what you mean about the Ref's showing a little leniency on the throw-in, as they seem to do with scrum put-ins. The whole reason there is a lineout is because one team has done something wrong, so from that point of view you don't want the lineout to be 100% even, or there wouldn't be any point in not putting the ball out at every opportunity. You might argue that being able to determine where the ball is thrown into is advantage enough, but I'm sure that we've all seen teams that have totally dominated the lineout, whether it was their throw-in or not.
On the other hand it would be hard to administer a rule that allowed a "degree" of not straight, it would be an absolute nightmare for Refs.
I did see a match recently where the Ref stopped the game for a lineout not being straight. as it happened the wind took the ball and fractionally blew it towards the opposing team who caught it cleanly and who were about to make good yardage with it, so the re-start went to the opposing team. If we can't rely on some Ref's showing even this amount of common sense, how would they manage a "degree" of not straight allowance.
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Why are we called "The Pirates" ? ....... Because we Arrrggghhh!!!
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