What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.

So reading between the lines, a lot of the original investors who couldn't raise the money to keep us in the championship thus were dismissed by the RFU etc have come back with a similar offer but as stated above still seem to be saying they cant afford to progress the club upwards or maybe even keep us in the championship.
Thus as has been stated before as one view, is that what is realistically achievable is we stay pro with a reduced budget/ go semi pro, play a good standard try to hold in championship/ drop to div 2 maybe.
As I have openly said before without a very rich sponsor or benefactor this is realism. Without being in administration though we can hopefully hold out to ensure that there is no chance of a massively rich rugby nut popping up last minute before we have to jump, but at least we know there is an option to not be a London 4 club.
My only questions are being an events organisation what would Lucid want in return in the way of the clubs allocation of tickets etc.
Its not a dig but a fair question as one of the draws to get people into a club is the possibility of match tickets and I am not naive enough to think people throw money around for nothing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010:02:02:01:27:22 by DantheOccie.

Richard contacted me last week about the possibility of a Supporters' Trust being formed (as was proposed last summer). We both agreed that a ST wouldn't be a core source of funding but a way to include supporters in the running of the club. The trust would have a shareholding in LW Ltd.

A trust would be properly constituted and regulated with a small annual joining fee (normally equivalent to a single match ticket). Membership is open to anyone and each member gets a single share in the trust and therefore one vote at any general meetings of the trust. Happy to answer any questions about this.

Personally I have great concerns about carrying on the way we are and requiring funding of £1m+ from either a single or small number of sources. If that funding doesn't come through or pulls out we will again be left with a huge shortfall that supporters will be asked to make up. I want to see something more viable - promotion to the GP will only lead to bigger losses, only 2 GP currently turn a profit.

Without dragging this into a debate about international tickets, I believe that for a number of years a percentage of our tickets have been sold to hospitality companies at a premium and that it brings in a significant income - equivalent to almost half our season ticket sales according to my quick calculation. We were told by Hollinshead that this proportion would remain the same this year but that LW would use them for their own hospitality. Clearly this didn't happen. Do we know what actually happened to them? Di Bark can you clarify?

Nigel Doe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:02:02:10:06:28 by nld.

In terms of International tickets, I thought it worthwhile clarifying the position with regard to how they would be used. Any club can sell England tickets to Licensed Operators, of which Lucid is one.
However the preference would be to try & build a London Welsh event business, which is within RFU rules, whereby season ticket holders & sponsors can buy packages where the profit goes back into the club. If this was not as successful as planned then Licensed Operators would be looked at to drive revenues.
With regard to Wales, there is not a licensed operator scheme outside of the ground. Again we would look to provide hospitality for supporters & fans for home games.
In terms of access to tickets for the fans & the current ballot. A proportion of tickets would continue to be available to fans & would be managed in exactly the same way as it is now. The support of individuals who undertake this, is exactly the kind of support that makes rugby clubs what they are. The more that this kind of work is supported by fans, the stronger the club will be.

Thanks for replying, however what is a 'proportion' please.

We must know our rough allocation numbers wise, therefore it would be helpful to understand from the beginning the numbers you are talking about as compared to members.

Thanks.

"Fresh Start includes a number of investors from the London Welsh Consortium but without any of the previous management team involved apart from me"

Does this mean that John Taylor is out to the frame?

With regard to the ticket allocation, I honestly would not know at the moment, as I can only take a guess of how many tickets would be available overall based on other Championship clubs. We would want to ensure that all fans & members do not feel disenfranchised.
With regard to the statement 'previous management' I was referring to some of the team involved in the previous consortium, not current members of staff.

NLD and Richard I welcome any idea that has the possibility of saving LW so please do not think i would be willing to see the club drop through the divisions to just ensure that X members get a ticket to Cardiff, although that is a very Welsh emotion. It was just a point at the end of my post as although I don't believe there is one club in the Country i know of that doesn't use allocation as a fundraiser I just wanted to clarify, so that it nipped in the bud, any inference that this was a purely speculative offer of help to 'grab' all the international tickets with no other real interest in the clubs future or prospects.


Dave I gathered from this 'the previous management team' that it reffered to the one pre this one (2008/9 season pre administration) as they were originally involved with this consortium I believe. (I could be wrong as so much has gone on its all become a blur) but would be very concerned if that did include JT etc as I personally think he is one person I genuinely trust to do what he believes is right for the club as a club.

JT may be and I am sure is a 'jolly nice bloke' but many heads of organisation get sacked not because they lack passion or belief in the cause but because they make wrong decisions and ;lack the necessary judgement. If I were an investor i would be very concerned at his lack of judgement in not checking Mr Hollingshead out and for believing his obvious cr*p!

fROM PREVIOUS POST

jT may be and I am sure is a 'jolly nice bloke' but many heads of organisation get sacked not because they lack passion or belief in the cause but because they make wrong decisions and ;lack the necessary judgement. If I were an investor i would be very concerned at his lack of judgement in not checking Mr Hollingshead out and for believing his obvious cr*p!



HERE WE GO AGAIN ANOTHER WITCH HUNT IS IT THE WAY FORWARD?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010:02:02:17:45:12 by Di Bark.

Katie b why not look at the administrators, the banks and the rfu who were all hoodwinked and upon which I'm sure JT made his recommendations. I was very suspicious but believed that the administrators and the rfu were enough of a watertight backstop. If long term money wasn't available then at least we had two years to try to rectify it.
I too believe that JT is the man to take us forward and agree with Danny that he is a man who I thoroughly trust, unlike the previous Peter Thomas led administration.

From west of the Tamar it looks as though some of you are more interested in bickering than moving your Club forward.
"Massively rich Rugby nuts" are few and far between and, in any event total reliance on limited sources of finance leaves the Club vulnerable under a range of circumstances.
We, at the Pirates, are lucky to have Dicky Evans, but this season there has been a call for much more self reliance and we, the fans, are able to support at varying financial levels and obtain benefits as a result. We average, approx, 2500+ for home games and will expect 5000 this coming weekend when we meet the Chiefs. We have Pirates TV, a brilliant innovation, which enables our Fans around the world (and there are a few Welsh spread around the globe as well as Cornish) to watch matches on the Internet for £6 a game, unless you are a Member of the Pirates Future, in which case it's free!
The purpose here is not to brag about the Pirates, though of course we are proud of what we're doing off the pitch as well as on it, but to stress to you, our London Welsh friends, that a little self help goes a long way. It all looked brilliant when we were up earlier in the season, work hard and you can keep it that way.

What is needed a coherent plan which must start with what level funding we can raise and which level of the game that will get us. Previous planning seems to have been to aim for the top level or bust; well now we're bust. What next?
I don't think we have leveraged the brand successfully in the past; this must be addressed. Though I think it has been moving in the right direction, there is an enormous amount of untapped potential. We have good facilities and a great location which are under utilized as Mr Lamb alluded too.
Once the potential value of franchise has been properly assessed then we have the hard decision to make. Can we afford to play in GP (not a chance), the Championship (probably) or will it be lower down.
We have to access if the value of franchise is enhanced or reduced by the 'soft 'n' friendly' family club with a good social atmosphere and the need to centre activity at ODP? London Irish is a much bigger and successful club because of its move from Sunbury. Many current members (myself included) won't like this but it may be for the greater good. If we maintain the status quo then we may have to accept a lower league is the best balance of ambition and resources.
The membership and owners needs to realise the club is neither a ‘community resource’ nor a business but must recognise the success will come from objective business management and engaging the broader stakeholder community.
Finally, the RFU needs to end the arms race in the lower leagues. Salaries in the lower leagues are clearly at a level that is unsustainable and are only justified in buying promotion to the top level. Simply, there is not enough money in the game to allow this to continue. The solution is either to pull up the draw bridge to the Premiership and allow funding and salaries to find its own level or if the RFU want to use the Championship as a development league then it needs to increase the funding available and impose a salary cap.

And now Cambridge will be loooking for funding after their major benefactor pulled out. Click here. Hopefully this will be another lesson to us about reliance on a single funder.

As Dave says, we have to find our true level. Crowds haven't increased much (if at all) this season yet costs have risen dramatically. I just want to see an open debate about the future of the 1st XV instead of the current blinkered charge to try and get into the GP. Even if we did get promotion what would we do then to ensure enough income to make ourselves one of three GP clubs that covered costs?

Pirates are an example of a club that are trying to be more sustainable. Their crowds are more than double ours and their commercial vision is clear.

I don't believe that the only two options (as outlined last Tuesday) are a full on push for promotion or playing in Middx League 20. Bees and Cov appear to have learnt their lessons and have cut their costs post-administration. We certainly need to condsider doing the same and more than likely put it in place.

Dear All

I have been asked to post this information by Kelvin Bryon.


Date 3 February 2010

London Welsh raise first £125k of fighting fund in less than a week

London Welsh are delighted with the initial response from investors, sponsors, members and supporters across the world following the meeting last Tuesday.

London Welsh shareholder and key benefactor Kelvin Bryon today said:

“The fund–raising effort that we started last week has already raised more than £125,000 of the half a million pound target we set out to achieve by the end of February. This is a great start and we are hugely grateful to our loyal supporters.”

As part of the fund-raising, the Club has launched personal appeals to potential benefactors around the country and announced the establishment of 125 Club Fighting Fund to gather donations from the membership and beyond for this its 125th year. The Club is also now engaged in discussions with a number of top quality sponsors, who are considering new proposals.

“We are also looking for long term investors who understand and value the heritage of this 125 year old club and want to take it up into the Premiership. This Club could be one of the best supported and viable Clubs in the Premiership. We’ve already identified sensible options for new stadia with the right capacity for the Premiership and room to grow; we are looking for long term partners who share our vision.”

The Club believes that in the Premiership the brand of skillful running rugby played by London Welsh would be an enormous draw for London’s rugby fans. Currently the team lies third in the Championship having guaranteed its place in the end of season play offs last weekend in a 51-13 thrashing of visitors Coventry and remains unbeaten in the British and Irish Cup. London Welsh is a prime contender for winning the Championship this season.

Commenting on press and web reports regarding the status of discussions with potential investors, Kelvin Bryon continues: “It has been reported that the Club has been approached by Lucid Events, representing a consortium called Fresh Start; however as yet no concrete proposals for investment have been put forward, nor have any of the parties to the consortium been identified”

The Club will favour those investors who share the ambition of London Welsh to rejoin the elite of English rugby and are prepared to plan for that future. In view of the recent history of investors in the Club, London Welsh will demand early proof of the availability of substantial funds to invest in the Club for the rest of this season and future seasons.

“This weekend will see the biggest day in the London Welsh hospitality year, with thousands of supporters arriving for the England vs Wales Day at Old Deer Park. The event is sold out for members and general supporters watching the game on big screens, with only a few hospitality places still available. This is always a great day for supporters of England or Wales, and a great day for London Welsh.” continues Kelvin.

Please note that the views expressed by Lucid in their statement on the Dragons Den website regarding the club and its future were not endorsed by Kelvin Bryon nor the management or shareholders of London Welsh.

Hugely positive!!

Thanks for the update, I will be spending a fair few pounds on saturday i'm sure enjoying the hospitality and adding to the fund!

Come on we can do it!!!

Also i haven't had chance to show my admiration to the players and staff after that performance on sat!! What a positive message to send out, well done boys! Keep it up!!

We are keen to discuss with Kelvin how we could get involved in taking forward the club. However as we have stated it needs to be based on a realisitic commercial model.
Ambition is great, but only if it is viable.
I support & echo Dave the Occie's views that an honest debate needs to be had with potential investors of the potential of the club.
The people involved in Fresh Start understand the values of the brand of London Welsh, but as business men also understand that great brands can fail. Who would have thought two years ago that Woolworths would disappear & that banks would be owned by the Government?
I hope that we can meet with Kelvin soon/next week & show our plans for the future.
Many mistakes have been made this season....& we need to learn & build from these. The team have done a fantastic job on the pitch however commercially there aren't any new sponsors & the local community has not been engaged. In moving forward we need to understand the reasons behind this & budget accordingly. (This failing is for once not the fault of NH).
It is fantastic that people have invested hard earned money to keep the club afloat, however a robust plan for next season needs to be built now otherwise there might not be any players next year.
With big games still to go until the end of the season & play off games (at a venue as yet unknown) there still is a great opportunity to plug the commercial gap that exists.

Fresh Start is keen to start to discuss the future with Kelvin, & invest. However it needs to be based on a robust commercial model as stated before.
In the interim, Lucid Events is happy to offer its services FOC to help sell & market the remaining games.
I hope that this weekend goes very well & that it helps to fill the commercial hole.
Richard

Richard

I do not post on this board in general as I prefer to talk directly to people. However, I have come on here with regard to your statements on the commercial part of London Welsh, as I am concerned that they could stop further sponsors, investors or people pledging money coming forward. Im sure that wasnt your intention, but I need to make certain that post isnt misinterpreted, causing harm to London Welsh at this critical time.

I can assure supporters that the sponsorship of London Welsh is moving forward following the return of London Welsh to the "Old Directors" from Red Dragon Rugby, and will continue to do so. We will drive real sponsorships that benefit London Welsh in the short, medium and long term.

Next week we will be annoucing a major new shirt sponsor, who has agreed a deal until the end of 2010/11 Season, the launch of which we are working on now. On Saturday, as well as the sold out England vs Wales event, we will be hosting the first London Welsh Business Club Event, which welcomes another 7 new sponsors into the London Welsh family.

I will not talk about the specifics regarding NH or any other individual on this forum. Im sure supporters who have read the Telegraph report can make up there own minds on him and Red Dragon Rugby, and what effect the involvement would have on gaining sponsorship and building trust in the local business community. Supporters I have spoken to have not echoed your sentiments.

In the previous statement, Kelvin has outlined how people are helping. Their help has raised £125k in less than 1 week and we are very thankful. That help is helping London Welsh go forward to a future.

If anyone still has concerns regarding the commercial side, my number is 02089402368, and my email address is rob@london-welsh.co.uk. I had posted these before, and they are on the website. Hopefully the information of these new sponsors will allay any concerns you have. If you want to contact Kelvin and dont have his details, please use these.

Also should any supporter have any ideas or leads that could help London Welsh, please feel free to put them forward to us. I would be very happy to follow them up or help you approach them. I would be happy to answer any queries as best we can about what any commercial aspects, and if you think we can improve, please put forward your thoughts.

Finally, with our current workload, if you could do all of that after Saturday, that would be appreciated. However, if anyone can offer real help on England vs Wales Day, contact us now. You will be finished before by 4pm, and will have helped London Welsh move forward to a brighter future, which is surely what we all want.

Regards
Rob
02089402368
rob@london-welsh.co.uk

Let me introduce myself, I am the global head of a multinational bank, a Welshman and a friend of a member of London welsh rugby club.
I've been asked to look at the statement by the club on this site (which has never been mentioned to the rugby side)and give my advice to my friend on the situation of LW.

I had to comment as firstly I'm amazed that no one has asked some simple questions in reply to the statement made by LW owner and commercial manager

1- can you explain the plans to sustain the club once you have the money to save the club?

2- what are the plans to run the club so it can sustain itself?

3- once you raise the funds to save the club for the remaining of the season, where will the money come to sustain the club in the off season and next, is your plan viable and secure?

4- Where will you play the play-offs if you save the club and survive? As you i believe loose your ground to the cricket season very soon

The other information I have been sent is an email sent to the players asking to do a youtube money appeal video and that the club are going to sell save the club tee-shirts. This to me is immoral and portrays your club as a charity. LW is not a charity! To use the same money making schemes to raise funds that cancer research, the haiti funds etc is pathetic. Especially when they are asking for money to save a badly run business with no plan presented to use the money to sustain the business for the future.
Once the donation has been used, what then?
This to me only shows you club as a dead business, how will any sponsor/investor put money into a business with no plan, infrastructure, direction or positive plan for the future. Marketing your club like this when you have a great rugby product and history is counter productive.
A professional sports outfit has to be run as a small business and people need to be accountable as in any other business. Ask yourself if your performance at work is ran like the off field of LW would you be in a job?
Regardless of what has gone on with the previous owner, I see that nothing was ever put in place to self sustain and therefore you can only blame those in charge of the running of the commercial side and the club.
I am disappointed for my friend as the rugby side has continue to shine through all the troubles and the rugby side is accountable for their performance, who is off field?
Why have the club not used to press to expose how the LW has performed during these troubles, has a future and therefore encourage people to get involved. I'm sure after the telegraph article the media would have liked to hear from LW?

The whole club needs a restructure to survive and without hard fact delivered it will sadly fall short. We all say we have plans, but can we actually present them? That is what I'd publicly ask the owner and commercial manager.

I apologies if you see my comments as negative, I'm just asking business questions here and if you get answers than I think this has been a positive. If you don't then again you get your answer.

I admit im a supporter of my friend and not London Welsh but I am a Welshman in London and I want to see London Welsh be successful and more importantly my friend.

I hope this starts and conversation.

JR

This last post looks suspiciously like a troll. A "global head of a multinational bank", whatever that is, would surely have a basic standard of literacy.

Don't be so sure Dai, from last years experience the only thing you need to head up a global bank is a big wallet and a good hiding place.

Quote:

Maid 'n Mouthy
Don't be so sure Dai, from last years experience the only thing you need to head up a global bank is a big wallet and a good hiding place.

Good point, well made.

Anyone fancy correlating the grammar mistakes against NH's posts?

Is it wise to negotiate on a public website?

If I wanted to work with the incumbent management, the last thing I would do is go on a chat page and start laying down the terms for my investment. It's really not a good way of winning friends and influencing people. If people ask you questions you can't answer, you will look shifty if you ignore them and shifty if you give an incomplete answer, however reasonable it may be to do that. LW isn't a PLC with a vast number of penny shareholders who might back you in a EGM. The support of the people on here is emotionally invaluable to the club, but I doubt that it makes much difference to any business discussions. And I think most of the people on here would rather talk about rugby anyway.

Also, there seems to be a disgruntled player or players around. The post from Mr Rees (which makes some good points) mentions him explicitly and a few posts in the past seem to have been from people with insider knowledge. No-one could argue with what the playing side have achieved but my experience has been that if you're not happy with your employer, it's usually easier for all involved to go to a different employer than to try to get the management sacked.

The club does need to look at its communication strategy. Getting their own chatpage would help I think (ducks for cover.)

Just for clarity, we are not negotiating online, we are trying to make sure that one of the core elements of any rugby club - the fans, are clear about what we would like to do. Without the fans, there wouldn't be a club. The debate though was put into the public domain, when fans & ex-sponsors were asked for investment.
On a separate note it sounds great that 7-8 new sponsors have been signed up on top of the investment of £125K already secured.
Richard

Is this the right arena to ask those questions and expect a response from the Management to them?

I think Jrees has got the wrong Dragons Den!

In any case it's hard to take seriously the advice of an International Banker, especially one who can't spell and has got the time to post questions about a "friends" Rugby Club during business hours.

I genuinely think this superb club that I support will rise and I hope that we can all contribute with time and spare funds whilst a proper strategy is being developed. I personally trust the current owners to sort this out despite the obvious blunder in engaging that snake oil salesman.

Onwards and upwards.

Just one more post then I'll go back to the Pirates site!
Surely it must be healthy for current and potential backers/sponsors to discuss and inform the Club's fan base on this forum.
Anyone who visited the Coventry and Birmingham sites during their problems will know that lack of information was the most common complaint.

Could it just be that it is a sign of the recognition that it's time for the future of London Welsh to be secured with the fans playing a bigger part than in the past?

If the reality is that, in order to survive, a drop to Nat 1 or even 2 is necessary to balance the books and build for the future then surely that is better than getting kicked to the bottom of the league structure, which would take years to reverse.

Good luck all.

JRees & Mate.
Who & what utter tosh. That I can be bothered to reply defies my normal sane judgement. What a lengthy diatribe to ask the same 1 question, 'how will the club survive when it gets through the short term'. See I did it in 12 words. If we knew we would have posted it here, in the press and on the club website. We don't know but we have a bleeding good management team, commercial team, supporter base and skilled playing side looking at each and every possibility and with that in place we have a bleeding good chance. We don't need you and your mate pulling the rug from under us.
Stick to 8anking, you seem to be good at it.

Oh 15 that I were as eloquent as you
and I would wager that you had no reason to
use a spellchecker .
Seriously though I fully agree with you

Paul - I've had a stressful day, is that an attempt at a haiku or a limerick?


And I agree, just give the management a chance to put out a few fires then we'll know where we stand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:02:04:23:50:31 by dottigirl.

Sorry Dotti ,just an iPhone that decides
for it's self when to
hit the return button.wish I was clever enough to create
a haku

Dear Mr Jonothan taylor, I am contacting you honourable and sincerity from my job as head of litigation and settlement of death payments from my bank in bunkoko fassu. A certain Mr Nobby Taylor has unfortunately and most regrettably met an untimely death with a collision with a travelling fijian rugby team.
I contact you as he left the sum of $20,000,000 dollars but has no apparent hair or bennyfactur and as your name is thomas and you have also collided with a fijian or two decided I would transfer the money to your account on proviso you pay me and my assistant Mr Rees in the Global Bank of Bunkoko Fassu $2,000,000 of them said dollars.


Seriously it does sound similiar



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:02:04:21:27:45 by DantheOccie.

Lol

Quote:

123paul
Sorry Dotti ,just an iPhone that decides
for it's self when to
hit the return button.wish I was clever enough to create
a haku

There must be poetry software within the iPhone! It's really creative. Or you're teasing me...hmmmm....

Quote:

DantheOccie

Seriously it does sound similiar

Nice one. Was thinking the same myself. Let's see if we get another missive tomorrow before Skooltime

Surely the greatest English language haiku was by John Cooper Clarke:

TO-CON-VEY ONE'S MOOD
IN SEV-EN-TEEN SYLL-ABLE-S
IS VE-RY DIF-FIC

Made me laugh a lot - John Cooper Clarke was (is ) a very clever man !!

I had a French teacher called Nobby Taylor. He was a bit mad.

Oh my giddy aunt , what have I started ?,what next
poetry readings at ODP ?. You never know it may turn into
a fund raiser !

Love it! Great banter and a great sense of Optimism !