Thoughts from the Chron 19th November
By Chris Gleadell
November 19 2009
So the Saints march on in the Anglo-Welsh LV= Cup with the 19-3 defeat of Saracens at the Gardens on Saturday. On a wretched day weather wise Saints carved out two well taken tries and the boot of Steve Myler, greatly hampered by the swirling breeze, did the rest.
November 19 2009
So the Saints march on in the Anglo-Welsh LV= Cup with the 19-3 defeat of Saracens at the Gardens on Saturday. On a wretched day weather wise Saints carved out two well taken tries and the boot of Steve Myler, greatly hampered by the swirling breeze, did the rest.
Conditions were far from ideal, indeed you might say the wind and the incessant rain were the overall winners on the day and in some respects it kept the score down. On a dry track I am sure that margin of victory would have much greater.
But for an early lead through an Alex Goode penalty Sarries never really threatened the Saints line till the final minutes of the match when they game was all but over for them.
To be fair to Saracens though, as was mentioned in last weeks column, the Watford based team had more than half an eye on Tuesdays night game against South Africa and selected a weakened side. The Saints selected their best available bar international calls, suspension and injury and always had too much for the visitors. You can only beat what is in front of you though and sometimes the wet ball and gale force gusts did more to keep that score down than the Sarries defence did.
So not the five pointer that might have been but at the end of the day Saints are still sitting pretty for qualification to the semi finals later this season.
There has certainly been a mixture of results so far given the nature of the LV= Cup and the strength of sides selected. With just two games played only two teams, Saints and Wasps, still have a 100% record. A victory in one of the final two games against Sale and Tigers when the competition restarts early next year could well see us home and dry the way things are shaping up.
QUINS
After the diversion of things Anglo-Welsh over the last couple of weeks it is back to the domestic main event, the Guinness Premiership, this weekend and the visit of Harlequins.
It has been an eventful year for Quins for reasons they will probably want to forget so I will not rake over old coals re the events surrounding the ‘Bloodgate' affair. Suffice to say though there was a shadow over the club at the early part of the season that seemed to affect things happening on the pitch. It took five rounds of the GP until they recorded their first win but since then they have remained undefeated including a notable win up at Newcastle and a last gasp draw against high flyers London Irish.
You get a feeling as the season has progressed that after getting over the initial doldrums of their problems the whole affair has had a galvanising effect on their players and probably the club as a whole. Perhaps they feel after the way they had been pilloried in the press and by the rugby community by and large as a whole it is a case of ‘it's us against world'. As yesterday's news becomes today's chip paper and most of us forgive and forget (though I'm sure some ‘wag' will bring the subject up on Saturday) if that is indeed the case then it will be interesting to see how long that's sustainable as a tool of inspiration as Quins are welcomed back into the general rugby fold.
Will Saturday be too soon? Well that's the proverbial length of string question but I think we will certainly be up against a more on song and fired up Quins outfit than we might have been at the start of the campaign.
However we are on a bit of a small roll ourselves. Barring the defeat in Perpignan you could argue we have had the better of play in all the games since, and including, the defeat of Munster back at the start of October. The LV= has given a chance for new faces to come through the ranks and other combinations to be tried and going forward we look to be in fine fettle.
The returning England players, more of whom later, will both be sure to be chomping at the bit with very valid points to prove and I think we will have enough to preserve that home record. At the time of writing prospects weather wise do not look good again and just like last week may be a major factor in proceedings. Again it may have an effect on the margin of victory but should the monsoon hit the Gardens again, I'm backing us to win it, just.
ENGLAND
The game against Quins is again a 1:00pm kickoff to allow people time to watch England's game against the All Blacks. I am not too sure after the last couple of weeks though that supporters will be rushing headlong to the bars to see the spectacle.
Despite last weeks scrambled win over Argentina there are still some pretty big question marks over England. Whether it's the fear of failure, it's a win at all costs mentality with no risk or it is coached into them we still saw a lack of invention in attack and a generally disjointed display.
To be honest I am not quite sure what Martin Johnson and his coaches are trying to achieve with this team. At times the forwards and backs looked like they did not know each other and you do have to ask whether there is a line of communication between their respective coaches, Jon Wells and Brian Smith, at all. Or indeed as rumours would have it one having far too much influence outside his area of expertise.
There are still questions over selection too and exactly what the long term aim is. Are we developing a team for 2011 and the next world cup or just lumbering from game to game as we appear to be at the moment in the hope it all magically falls into place? I may well be wearing my Gold, Black and Green specs on this but there has been more than a few eyebrows raised outside the Saints community when Ben Foden and Courtney Lawes were released from the England squad this week.
Ben is the form fullback in England at the moment of that there is no doubt. Week after week he travels to train with England, week after week he is sent home at the weekend. Meanwhile a winger is selected out of position at fullback. Come matchday said winger has the mother of all disasters in the position, guy sent home, despite the conditions plays another blinder.
It must be very frustrating for Ben especially as he knows he not been passed over completely. He is putting in the hours each week for England on the training pitch but for whatever reason come selection a stop gap is selected before him.
Courtney is of course one for the future. However had he been for example Australian, he might well have been picking up his third cap this weekend.
Instead over the three autumn internationals, a better time than any to blood youngsters if you are looking to the future, he got just ten minutes game time.
However in those ten minutes he probably did as much as Louis Deacon did in two games. This week, Deacon retained, Courtney sent home. To me it just does not make sense however you look at the second row combinations.
For sure the All Blacks are probably the biggest test out there but it would be the kind of game Courtney would thrive in, even if he just got another ten minutes. Deacon on prior form will just go further into his shell.
On balance I do not hold out any great hope for England this weekend. The one saving grace might be that outside of Richie McCaw and Dan Carter this is not the greatest New Zealand side of recent times. I do however have half a inkling that England might pull something out of the bag against the All Blacks as they have before.
Whilst you should never wish your team to lose a victory, or even a gallant narrow loss, might just paper over a whole load of huge cracks, long term that might be more damaging than a defeat. The media and joe public will be singing English praises from the rooftops but in reality for Johnson and his coaches with their selection policy vindicated we will most likely be back to stage one come the Six Nations.
But for an early lead through an Alex Goode penalty Sarries never really threatened the Saints line till the final minutes of the match when they game was all but over for them.
To be fair to Saracens though, as was mentioned in last weeks column, the Watford based team had more than half an eye on Tuesdays night game against South Africa and selected a weakened side. The Saints selected their best available bar international calls, suspension and injury and always had too much for the visitors. You can only beat what is in front of you though and sometimes the wet ball and gale force gusts did more to keep that score down than the Sarries defence did.
So not the five pointer that might have been but at the end of the day Saints are still sitting pretty for qualification to the semi finals later this season.
There has certainly been a mixture of results so far given the nature of the LV= Cup and the strength of sides selected. With just two games played only two teams, Saints and Wasps, still have a 100% record. A victory in one of the final two games against Sale and Tigers when the competition restarts early next year could well see us home and dry the way things are shaping up.
QUINS
After the diversion of things Anglo-Welsh over the last couple of weeks it is back to the domestic main event, the Guinness Premiership, this weekend and the visit of Harlequins.
It has been an eventful year for Quins for reasons they will probably want to forget so I will not rake over old coals re the events surrounding the ‘Bloodgate' affair. Suffice to say though there was a shadow over the club at the early part of the season that seemed to affect things happening on the pitch. It took five rounds of the GP until they recorded their first win but since then they have remained undefeated including a notable win up at Newcastle and a last gasp draw against high flyers London Irish.
You get a feeling as the season has progressed that after getting over the initial doldrums of their problems the whole affair has had a galvanising effect on their players and probably the club as a whole. Perhaps they feel after the way they had been pilloried in the press and by the rugby community by and large as a whole it is a case of ‘it's us against world'. As yesterday's news becomes today's chip paper and most of us forgive and forget (though I'm sure some ‘wag' will bring the subject up on Saturday) if that is indeed the case then it will be interesting to see how long that's sustainable as a tool of inspiration as Quins are welcomed back into the general rugby fold.
Will Saturday be too soon? Well that's the proverbial length of string question but I think we will certainly be up against a more on song and fired up Quins outfit than we might have been at the start of the campaign.
However we are on a bit of a small roll ourselves. Barring the defeat in Perpignan you could argue we have had the better of play in all the games since, and including, the defeat of Munster back at the start of October. The LV= has given a chance for new faces to come through the ranks and other combinations to be tried and going forward we look to be in fine fettle.
The returning England players, more of whom later, will both be sure to be chomping at the bit with very valid points to prove and I think we will have enough to preserve that home record. At the time of writing prospects weather wise do not look good again and just like last week may be a major factor in proceedings. Again it may have an effect on the margin of victory but should the monsoon hit the Gardens again, I'm backing us to win it, just.
ENGLAND
The game against Quins is again a 1:00pm kickoff to allow people time to watch England's game against the All Blacks. I am not too sure after the last couple of weeks though that supporters will be rushing headlong to the bars to see the spectacle.
Despite last weeks scrambled win over Argentina there are still some pretty big question marks over England. Whether it's the fear of failure, it's a win at all costs mentality with no risk or it is coached into them we still saw a lack of invention in attack and a generally disjointed display.
To be honest I am not quite sure what Martin Johnson and his coaches are trying to achieve with this team. At times the forwards and backs looked like they did not know each other and you do have to ask whether there is a line of communication between their respective coaches, Jon Wells and Brian Smith, at all. Or indeed as rumours would have it one having far too much influence outside his area of expertise.
There are still questions over selection too and exactly what the long term aim is. Are we developing a team for 2011 and the next world cup or just lumbering from game to game as we appear to be at the moment in the hope it all magically falls into place? I may well be wearing my Gold, Black and Green specs on this but there has been more than a few eyebrows raised outside the Saints community when Ben Foden and Courtney Lawes were released from the England squad this week.
Ben is the form fullback in England at the moment of that there is no doubt. Week after week he travels to train with England, week after week he is sent home at the weekend. Meanwhile a winger is selected out of position at fullback. Come matchday said winger has the mother of all disasters in the position, guy sent home, despite the conditions plays another blinder.
It must be very frustrating for Ben especially as he knows he not been passed over completely. He is putting in the hours each week for England on the training pitch but for whatever reason come selection a stop gap is selected before him.
Courtney is of course one for the future. However had he been for example Australian, he might well have been picking up his third cap this weekend.
Instead over the three autumn internationals, a better time than any to blood youngsters if you are looking to the future, he got just ten minutes game time.
However in those ten minutes he probably did as much as Louis Deacon did in two games. This week, Deacon retained, Courtney sent home. To me it just does not make sense however you look at the second row combinations.
For sure the All Blacks are probably the biggest test out there but it would be the kind of game Courtney would thrive in, even if he just got another ten minutes. Deacon on prior form will just go further into his shell.
On balance I do not hold out any great hope for England this weekend. The one saving grace might be that outside of Richie McCaw and Dan Carter this is not the greatest New Zealand side of recent times. I do however have half a inkling that England might pull something out of the bag against the All Blacks as they have before.
Whilst you should never wish your team to lose a victory, or even a gallant narrow loss, might just paper over a whole load of huge cracks, long term that might be more damaging than a defeat. The media and joe public will be singing English praises from the rooftops but in reality for Johnson and his coaches with their selection policy vindicated we will most likely be back to stage one come the Six Nations.
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StumbleuponThoughts from the Chron 19th November
Posted by: ComeOnYouSaints.com (IP Logged)
Date: 20/11/2009 00:08
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Re: Thoughts from the Chron 19th November
Posted by: St Francis (IP Logged)
Date: 20/11/2009 00:36
Nice one Chris. The England part is depressing but, I fear, completely accurate.
Re: Thoughts from the Chron 19th November
Posted by: St.Rich Joe, Niamh and Sam's Dad (IP Logged)
Date: 20/11/2009 06:52
Good work as ever Mr G
Come join my Six Nations prediction game on SportGuru! It's free and loads of fun. Just click here:
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Come join my Six Nations prediction game on SportGuru! It's free and loads of fun. Just click here:
[www.sportguru.co.uk]
Pool name: coysdc
Pool code: tunabane
Re: Thoughts from the Chron 19th November
Posted by: Wee Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 20/11/2009 08:24
Excellent read! Think you are spot on that Quins will not be a push over.
Re: Thoughts from the Chron 19th November
Posted by: Howlin nli (IP Logged)
Date: 20/11/2009 13:36
Imo Wells is the one that should go. Bring in someone like a Kiwi forwards coach. Even with the massively inexperienced man at the top (Johnson) I think this would make a huge difference. i also get the impression that there is a lot of interference on selection policies. Maybe Andrew is involved here. i have always seen him as a politician and therefore pretty ineffectual aside from feathering his own nest and pandering to those in power. But this is obviously just my supposition.
Whilst I appreciate that Courtney needs to be handled very carefully at this level (and you can bet Westy is having a big say here) Deacon is imo a far less effective player. Why lawes did not get any game time against Argentina is unfathomable. Like you have said Chris it is not beyond England to pull a rabbit from the hat (e.g. reaching the last world cup final) however unlikely, but in terms of team selection and style of play they are way short of what is required.
Whilst I appreciate that Courtney needs to be handled very carefully at this level (and you can bet Westy is having a big say here) Deacon is imo a far less effective player. Why lawes did not get any game time against Argentina is unfathomable. Like you have said Chris it is not beyond England to pull a rabbit from the hat (e.g. reaching the last world cup final) however unlikely, but in terms of team selection and style of play they are way short of what is required.
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