Normally at the start of an ERE  interview we spend time commenting on what the subject has achieved, but where would you start with "Big Jack"? Well we won't even try, so instead we'll let you eavesdrop on the conversation Jack had with Haydn Giles (ERE's very own Michael Parkinson) the day after Bath's superb 27-25 victory against Brive.

HG - What draws you towards rugby?

JR - The people in it, on and off the field. Traditionally it's a great game, it's an instant society if you play and you make friends straight away and these days as it's no longer just a players game it's the same for the supporters. All of this is particularly important in a place like Bath where the players and supporters have always been close. I think that is a good example of what rugby is all about; also it's a great game with a lot of spirit.

HG - Who, of the players you coached, had the biggest talent?

JR - As far as Bath is concerned, John Hall, Jerry Guscott, Stuart Barnes. We've been very lucky when you think of Simon Halliday, John Palmer, Jim Waterman...

HG - John Horton?

JR - Yes, the names just drip off the tongue, there was so many and that's what we were able to do when we got Bath up and running in the early Eighties - we could replace quality with quality and we worked hard to that end. Not only did we have talent in both forwards and backs but also players with the will to win, someone like Nigel Redman who, as well as being a good player, had the Bath heart which was essential to our success.

HG - Is it hard to manage so much talent?

JR - No, that's the easy bit. I used to say to successive captains that what we have got here is a conveyer belt because players want to play for us. I remember Nigel Gaymond once saying shortly after he joined from Bristol United that the word on the street is "Join Bath and become a better player" and that was before Bath hit the headlines.

HG - What do you miss about match days at the Rec? 

JR - The electric atmosphere and the expectation, given the standards that the team achieved and sustained. On big days Bath would always produce a big and unique crowd - although it's West Country it is not a Bristol or Gloucester crowd; a mixture of old, young and in-between. All of this helped to drive players and coaches to continue to achieve the highest standards. As Bath only has a population of some 80,000 we should never have achieved so much when compared against the big conurbations of Bristol, Leicester, Coventry and of course London.

HG - What impact will buying in talent have on clubs and how will this affect the development of young local players?

JR - People always quote the fact that Jerry Guscott played for Bath Mini's and rose through the ranks but I always then say, "Fine, but where's the next Jerry Guscott?" and without development the club will suffer. At Bath we always focused our trawl for players around the South West because it gave us that "us against the rest of the world" spirit and, when the chips were down, we found that it helped.We have seen this in soccer at Manchester United which is an outstanding example; they searched the country for the best young talent and found it in players like Beckham, Scholes and Butt, developed them and then said "Right they are now taking over" which makes a lot of sense financially but is also good for team spirit. With no disrespect to any player in the world I truly believe that when the chips are down a player needs to be part of a club for the right reasons to ensure they will dog it out when needed.

HG - Of course some clubs may have gone too far the other way in the past and only recruited local players.

JR - That's right, if you have a gap in your team you have to reach out for other players; we are in a professional game and clubs have to react accordingly.

HG - What does 48-6 mean to you?

JR - Was that Bath beating Gloucester? What a wonderful day out. That was the first time I thought Bath went to a final and showed people what Bath was all about, I think that was important. What people expect of Cup Finals is a flowing game making a pretty picture when really it is the most tense game of the year as we have been finding out for years in soccer Cup Finals. Gloucester had a good side and had a very good year and it was important that Bath played Bath rugby which meant the game flowed and everyone was involved. We were in advance of others in getting 15 men to play together, forwards and backs, in what I called interactive rugby. The game changed in 1991 when the laws changed and Bath changed immediately and it took a long time for others to catch on - not least internationally; there was a new game out there where forwards had to be able to handle like backs.

HG - What do you think Bath lacked last year which led to the lack of silverware?

JR - Since I left Bath I have never sought to interfere and so I won't criticise; I don't think that's becoming of people who have been there and moved on.

HG - What about your observations then?

J R -1 think what Bath have had is great momentum and what you have got to do with that is sustain it. So when I went I was delighted that Brian Ashton and John Hall took over and last year I was worried that the momentum might disappear and also that the new professionalism might give others the opportunity to catch Bath up, remember in the past Bath were always building for the future and when one person disappeared another was ready to take his place.

HG - What about key areas on the pitch?

JR -1 think the thing that Bath are gifted at more than others, because they have been at it longer, is 15 man rugby in the most up to date manner in the Auckland mould. You can't just pick a team and say this is what we are going to do, you have to have the players who are capable of doing it and at their best Bath are capable of doing it - I saw some cracking games at the beginning of last season against Bristol and Swansea but the problem is sustaining that when the pressure is on; I thought those games were unique and were the best games I watched anywhere last season. However it is also important to keep a balance and mix the running play with strategic kicks, preferably not out of play. You need the forwards to drive and you need the backs to play it up the middle as well as go wide, it's all about balance Those early games were inspirational and people got caught up in it and tactically you have got to be capable of changing a game-plan to meet the needs of the time. Of course there was disruption with John Hall and Brian Ashton going and these were major issues because they had both done so much for the club.

HG - What has been your highlight at Bath?

JR - Hundreds! A highlight for me was building a successful team and sustaining it; that wasn't just a high, it was an emotional high. Team spirit, friendships on and off the field, I used to say that Bath played hard on the field and also off it and it just became a way of life. I invented this thing, the Bath family, and to me that was the highlight because once we got it going it lasted forever. Other highlights include winning the first Cup against Bristol, which I managed not to watch because I was in the car park. I asked a policeman for the score after the game and he looked at me suspiciously and said "Why, don't you know?", he wondered what I was up to in the car park. Each of the finals were nice and in my time we won eight finals - you should never take things like that for granted because a lot of good teams will get nowhere near that. Winning the league was good, but the highlight was really just the general achievement. I used to go and watch the Spartans play and see young men and the not so young enjoying a game of rugby.

HG - Do you think the club is a lesser club for having lost the Spartans?

JR - When I joined, the Spartans were going to be disbanded but I said that if they go we will start fraying round the edges of the United team so they kept them going with Chris Perry doing a wonderful job as captain; it was games for people who wanted to be part of the club I do appreciate that in this professional era a club can only afford so many players and so you focus on quality because all you are really thinking about is who will play in the first team so sad that the Spartans have gone but, I think, understandable in this new era.

HG -I know of a number of people who will no longer go to watch Bath because of the disbanding of the Spartans because they no longer feel it's a club it's just a business - fair point?

JR - This is part of the understandable tension because everyone was used to the Bath family, I can see now the Spurrells, the Simpson's and Chilcott - people who were there right at the beginning and it is important to me that people understand that's where Bath came from; when the chips were down the family came into it's own and we must never lose that otherwise Bath will just become another team.

HG - How did touring as the Manager/Coach of England differ between professional and amateur eras?

JR - It didn't make any difference to me. Even when I was at Bath I always felt we were a professional outfit playing an amateur game. You put your heart into it in a big way, that's what we do where I come from, but perhaps when you go professional the hear disappears and you can't afford that. If you look at New Zealand, however good our players are they still seem to have an edge, and a lot of that comes from the heart. Professionalism does allow you to train harder and we are just into it, learning along the way. Although the England players are fitter they are playing more intensive games and so become more fatigued than you would want and this has to settle down so that the top players can do justice to their clubs and England.

HG - How important is the European Cup?

JR -1 think it is essential, we don't have the Super 12 or anything like it and it's a massive competition for developing players and the game and we have to have something to compete with that otherwise players are going straight from club to international. This Cup looks like it is taking off and it must help to raise standards in the Northern Hemisphere. It is a mouthwatering prospect for players and spectators - just look at a fixture like Bath verses Brive, just fantastic!

HG - I am not going to ask you about your selection for England captain but I would like to hear your views on what Roger Uttley has recently said about there being several England captains within a season. How does that fit in within your philosophy?

JR - If that is what Roger is saying that is something new. Everyone is entitled to their own point of view on this captaincy issue and this idea of Roger's could be something which works and works well. In my view, for club and at international level, the captain is a key figure who is at the fulcrum of the game on the field; he may accept advice from others but rugby is a very fast moving game. It's also the issues off the field as well and I worked with my captains to make them strong independent people because on the field there is so much pressure and they have to take decisions on the hoof without referring to the vice captain, the man next to them or the pack leader so I have always seen the captain as a key part of the management. He must be capable of not only looking after his own game but also taking a step back to get a wider perspective.

HG - So what about three captains?

JR - The issue is who do you look to when the chips are down because one captain might think it is time to close the game down and another might think it's best to open things up. Bath have always been strong around this issue, taking decisions on the hoof and I always remember when we narrowly beat Harlequins in a Cup Final we could have lost and Stephen Jones (The Sunday Times columnist) came up to me afterwards and said "I've just asked Harlequins why they lost a game they should have won and they said I should talk to the coaches about that. Can you imagine saying that to a Bath player? They would know and that has been a major strength." For England it was always going to be difficult for a captain to follow Will Carling's achievements but if you say that your captain is in charge on the field and responsible for the style of play you only have to look at the wonderful rugby we played last year to judge the quality of Phil de Glanville's captaincy.

HG - What have England got to do to win a World Cup?

JR -1 think they are doing it, it's not "a" World Cup but the "next" World Cup. What you have to have is fixtures, when you think back to the last World Cup we had not played Australia since the previous competition and that's not on is it! And then we moved on to New Zealand and found ourselves playing a different game; as the match went on we got used to it but by them it was too late. When I became England coach in 1994 I said we needed fixture development - fly in, fly out - the game had gone global and you couldn't be happy just playing your rugby in pockets. Whilst the Five Nations is a world class competition you still need to be regularly playing the big three in the Southern Hemisphere, not least with South Africa coming back into the frame which has disturbed the balance of power - things are really unpredictable now.

It's also about player development and what I call the conveyer belt where we systematically identify young players at school or in the clubs and, without overpowering them, saying "We are going to help you to make the most of your talents." We also need a stronger exposure for players at all international levels so they get the feel of the worldwide game. You then need a structured season which allows training. I fully understand the need of clubs for their top players to play for them but if they play too many games it will have an impact on their international aspirations. International rugby is a big game, it's the shop window for all rugby and so we have to get the balance right between club and country.

I don't think the clubs should have so many foreign players although I do respect the clubs' positions. Of course some of them enrich the game and make a real spectacle but the inflow of foreigners does restrict the opportunities for young players to come through and the problem England have had recently at No 10 is helped when you look around and see who is playing in this position in many of the top clubs. Link all of this together and you are managing the future, I always call it "Winning today whilst planning to win tomorrow"

HG - How did you feel about losing players to the Lions whilst with England in Argentina?

JR - It was very sad. We went on tour not knowing if would win any games because we had very little training but it was a wonderful trip whether you were the England captain like Phil de Glanville, a seasoned professional like Ben Clarke or an uncapped player like Martin Haag. We needed to hit the ground running, which we did, and the rugby we wanted to play would be focused through Mike Catt who was proving to be inspirational. Additionally Nigel Redman was an ideal anchorman for the whole team, despite being told by Andy Robinson that he had retired, and it was very sad to lose them both.

HG - Was there a issue of you knew this was going to happen?

JR - Given the track record of people being injured and if you look at it from a Lions' management point of view you are going to naturally call on an England touring team with players who are match fit. Everyone knew that the Lions were to be given priority, that wasn't an issue but it would have been good for the group if Ollie and Catty had been able to stay until after the 2nd Test but they were naturally keen to join the Lions' Party and we all supported that.

HG - Who do you think is the best half-back pairing for England at the moment?

JR - The jury has got to be out on that. With Barnes, Andrew and Morris all disappearing after the last World Cup there was an void in this position and this left England in a hole. We had four promising scrum-halves in Gomersall, Dawson, Healey and Bracken but they needed time to come through and I always say to players who were selected that it's for a career not for a game because, unless you are lucky, it takes a lot of getting used to - the pace of thought and deed, the hits, the pressure from the crowd and not forgetting the pressure from the opposition

At No 10 Grayson made good steps and he is a place kicker, which is what we needed We could have had Jon Callard, God bless him, but we needed a running full-back to play our attacking game

Mike Catt is the attacking No10, and I have got to say his defence has improved as well, but his kicking came under pressure before Christmas but we gave him the three games as you need more than one to gain confidence. Grayson was brought in after Christmas and he played exactly the way I wanted but he got injured but on his return I though Mike Catt did exceptionally well. Against Wales his decision taking was excellent and his execution of the decisions both in kicking or passing was brilliant and I though "Has he arrived?" Hopefully he has for the good of English rugby. To give him his due, we asked him to kick in the Wales match and he was so nervous that his knees were knocking as he stood to take the kicks - God bless him for doing it!

At the same time England need a fit Grayson. King is making good progress but one thing which would help England is if Stimpson could become a proficient kicker as that would take the pressure off the No10 situation.

HG - Which achievement with England actually gave you the greatest pleasure?

JR - Winning any game. Picking up a team just prior to the World Cup which the previous season had not scored many tries and going on to win a Grand Slam in a manner which Geoff Cooke described as moving on to another level Whatever I had done at Bath with international players was nothing to what I had to do with England and I was just learning at this early stage. The World Cup was a huge challenge and we lost to a better team. Another highlight was Rob Andrew's drop goal against Australia - just brilliant^!

HG - What were your feelings during that match against New Zealand?

JR - Well during the first ten to fifteen minutes I was thinking. "With all this hard work we are better than this." But we did have our aberrations, what with the kick-off and missed tackles, they were in their "22" and went to the other end and scored I felt sorry for everyone involved, on and off the field. But you take it on the chin - what pleased me though was the way we played in the second half, we played some very good rugby.

What we have to remember is that New Zealand played a very good game of rugby, and Mr Lomu, who is a very strong fellow who should never be underestimated, ran over quite a few players including Mike Catt. But if you look at Catty now he is a very different tackler.

HG - What do you believe that Clive Woodward will bring to the England set up?

JR -1 don't know much about his coaching but I understand he is his own man, which is important. I think he has a squad that he can play tunes on and I think he is probably a coach who will encourage the players to think about and solve issues.

HG - What do you think about the Brive/ Pontypridd situation?

JR - Rugby has to be played with the right intent at all times and I see this as a serious issue for marketing the game to youngsters so that they will want a play Rugby has to compete with many sports and I can't imagine that many would prefer to be caught up in the potential brutality of the game which must be eliminated from the game. As far as I am concerned anyone using the boot or throwing a punch, whether it connects or not, should be sent off. They do this in Rugby League and it's right; I have been in meetings and made this point of view but all too often it's backed away from. The thing is if you may it clear from the outset, the players know where they stand

We have a wonderful opportunity in rugby, it's on the crest of a wave, inspired by the Super 12 and much of the rugby I have seen in England and it would be a pity if foul conflict on the field is a feature

HG - So if a scrum collapses and all of the players start fighting should they all be sent off?

JR - That is where it gets difficult but in such circumstances the clubs should be brought to account for the good of the game and the good of the clubs.

HG - What are Bath's chances of winning the European Cup"?

JR - Good, it all looks very even. Last year I thought Leicester would beat Brive, but when I spoke to the French coach later he told me it was the be they had played all year. It was a wonderful day with some fantastic rugby on show - it's the start of something big. Even when Welsh rugby was down I always thought that the likes of Cardiff and Pontypridd are as good as anyone and this cup proves that. Whoever is the top of the English league has got to stand a good chance of winning in Europe but a cup is a cup and we all know what can happen to dislodge the favourites. It takes a special team to win cups over a few seasons and that is what Bath have been - special!

HG - What do you know about ERE?

JR - I used to read it, smile at it or laugh at it! I always thought it was perceptive which is in keeping with true supporters who used to stand on the flowerpots before they had to sit down. The magazine is democracy and as we move in to this professional era it's more important than ever. It is important to the club that there is an agency which constructively represents views.

HG - Finally, what sort of role or attachment to rugby will you be keeping?

JR - Having coached at Gosforth and winning a cup there, and then coming to Bath and spending 17 years in a unique atmosphere - in all that time think I only missed about 20 training sessions - that is an experience which is more than money can buy. I have several things I still want to do in business. I am a Life Member at Bath an still have a seat (I think) but I can't see myself being involved in coaching again. If I do anything a) I will always be Bath supporter and b), with my experience of running companies and rugby coaching/management experience I would like to run a club, though not at Bath.

So there you have it, an exclusive from ERE, Jack Rowell will retire from business to run a club - well Bristol could do with him couldn't they!

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