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Appalling EPS selections, full of antiques, dullards and wastrels. And Goode and Noon can stroll in as extras. I have lost all faith in England's direction when we're still picking the likes of Chuter and White and frankly rubbish poaches like Barritt for the "A" team as well.

Too old, too conservative in my opinion. Plenty of Leicester forwards with their best days behind them or not good enough in the first place (Deacon). Narraway does not deserve even a Saxons place the way he played last season.

Enland's best loosehead doesn't get in either squad.

Too many second rate Tigers (Deacon, Chuter etc), and on what basis are tidall and Wilko in either squad?

Good squads.

Tindall and Wilko are both class and deserve a chance to prove their fitness.

Chuter is the 3rd best hooker in England so deserves to be in.

Alas \ Dorset Boy, Tigers finished where last year?

Duncan, agree entirely about them having been class players but you don't need to be in the EPS to prove your fitness!

Even is he was the 3rd best English Hooker, what is the point of him being there; he wont play any part in the AIs barring injury, he wont play in the 2011 RWC,he doesnt even have a wealth of international experience to impart.

Wilkinson was class, could be again if fit.

Tindall has always been a plodder who was made to look good by Greenwood and Catt.

Nice to see that Goode, Noon and Haskell still have the opportunity to enter the fold. I'd find it hard to leave any of these three out of the starting XV for the coming season, assuming all are fit. They should all comfortably make the 22 for the November tests in my opinion.

Props: Tim Payne (London Wasps) Andrew Sheridan (Sale Sharks), Phil Vickery (London Wasps), Julian White (Leicester Tigers), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Fair enough really, these are our best props.

Hookers:George Chuter (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)

Fair enough, again these are the best hookers at the moment

Locks: Steve Borthwick (Saracens), Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers), Ben Kay (Leicester Tigers), Simon Shaw (London Wasps)

Kay over Kennedy is a little surprising but Deacon, Borthwick and Shaw are the top three.

Back row: Steffon Armitage (London Irish), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Nick Easter (Harlequins), Tom Rees (London Wasps), Joe Worsley (London Wasps)

A good group, with perhaps Haskell joining them should the french connection prove profitable.

Scrum halvesanny Care (Harlequins), Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers), Paul Hodgson (London Irish)

Not sure there is too much debate around these three, who to pick out of them is of course a different matter.

Fly halves: Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)

the best 10's when fit, so should be in. Flood is unlikely to make the autumn internationals so I reckon some one will come in for him

Centres: Riki Flutey (CA Brive), Dan Hipkiss (Leicester Tigers), Mat Tait (Sale Sharks), Mike Tindall (Gloucester)

Only one inside centre but the three best outside ones. Mike Tindall is a very good player, good in the tackle and a great kicker he is severly underrated by most on here.

Wings:Matt Banahan (Bath Rugby), Mark Cueto (Sale Sharks), Ugo Monye (Harlequins)

Perhaps a little light in numbers but the quality is there and none of those were original EPS selections last year so we know things can change on the wings

Full Backs: Delon Armitage (London Irish), Olly Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)

Fair enough.

Basically this is a very good england squad, I think we will beat Argentina and either Australia or the All Blacks but not both because our consistancy isn't good enough yet.

The overlooking of David Flatman is just astonishing.

Is there any significance to the fact that at no point in the press release is there a mention of Throbwick as Captain?

Please, God...?

Guest should have been selected infront of Narraway.
Flatman should have been in the Saxons squad.

SK88 is Martin Johnson and I claim my £5. If we beat either Australia or New Zealand I will be utterly amazed.

DA Bath, for an English based player i.e. Tindall + Flood, if they aren't named in the EPS but then come to fitness in time for the Autumn Internationals then MJ would be unable to pick them before the Mid-season change unless there were injuries or suspensions.

By picking the players coming back from injury if they get injured \ don't recover then it is easy to replace them, hence, pick the class player even if he may be injured.

Flatman is slightly unlucky, it must have been a close call, but i totally agree with MJ that Payne and Sheridan are better than him so it doesn't exactly matter too much. Perhaps he could be in the Saxons but White didn't start in the Saxons last year and ended up playing tests.

Congratulations to Courtney Lawes - he had an amazing season. A deserved step up from the U20 team. I look forward to seeing him break yet more scrum halves this season.

ClaireJ
Saints vs London Wasps...

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Through me you pass into the city of woe
Through me you pass into eternal pain
Through me among the people lost for aye

Justice the founder of my fabric mov`d
To rear me was the task of power divine
Supremest wisdom and primeval love

Before me things create were none
Eternal and eternal I endure
All hope abandon ye who enter here....

Such characters in colour dim I mark`d
Over a portals lofty arch inscribe
Whereat I thus master these words import.

Naming Wilkinson and Flutey just takes away 2 places from England based players, makes no sense to me, smacks of muddled thinking. Naming injured players with no proven fitness highlights the folly of the whole agreement (which may well be the very reason MJ has chosen to do so).


Nick Kennedy in the Saxons is just plain daft.


We are the angry mob. We read the papers every day. We like who we like, we hate who we hate, but we're also easily swayed.

The only thing that could conceivably turn this squad into a World-beating one is a time-machine.

Very few of the aforementioned dinosaurs are first-team selections, so what good is it to anyone to have Julian White and Ben Kay holding the tackle bags? What are they learning? What is anyone gaining?

Good to see that Ben Foden's reward for being one of the five best players in the country was to get 15 minutes out of position against whoever it was and then recede to the Saxons.

Wilkinson has done nothing to deserve a place in the squad. I'm happy to adopt a wait-and-see attitude to see how Cips plays without the bolt in his ankle and I think it's the right move, but King Jonny walks into the squad on the basis of what, exactly? I say walks in, but hobbles in on however many working legs he has at the time.

Also, why did nobody tell us that all we had to do to get rid of Noon was send him to France? Which further highlights the double-standard applied to Wilkinson. Flutey was one of England's best players last year and to drop him would be ludicrous, but Jonny?

I'm not sure that Johnno realises that we're halfway between World Cups, and in two years we've successfully developed Croft and Armitage into good Test players. Two more in the next two years leaves us in huge trouble. But don't worry, Ben Kay'll still be around.

Well said

Yes Ed, good post. I'm also struggling to follow any sort of logical pattern WRT the selections. If I had the opportunity to ask Johnno one question, and there could be many, I think it would be why no Ben Foden in the Senior Player Squad.

Well done Ed, made me laugh. I would say the Lions have developed Croft more than England did, but as long as we benfit it's ok.

Kay, Deacon, Chuter, White, Wilko should not be there. Not entirely sure who sould replace them, but I'd give Lamb, Cips, Myler, Hodgson a crack over Wilko who needs game time. Kennedy over Kay, anyone over Deacon, Chuter.....again anyone.

Care needs a big few games because I'm not sure he is the answer at 9. Flutey will walk into the 12 jersey as he is the best 12 by far. Would be interested in seeing him with Tins believe it or not! Or maybe if we are daring Tait!

Lamb wasn't even good enough for the GP last season.

Funny post as always Ed.

Pity that you need to be like that. We should all be talking about a new fresh England Squad.

I'm all for a bit of balance, but picking Chuter, who is old, and was never really international class is frankly baffling.

The way some players are treated (in the positive sense) is disgraceful.

The Leicester bias isn't an issue for me, it is the obession with picking players Johnson knows, and has played with.

The selection of Wilkinson basically sticks two fingers up at every 10 in England. You may be a good 10, but I'm selecting someone who hasn't really played since 2003. Unbelievable. No evidence that he's going to be any good. The game has moved on since 2003, and Wilkinson hasn't been a part of that move for the most part.

If we can look on the bright side, and say that we've successfully brought on Croft and Armitage, then who's going to break out this year?

I'm going to put my money on Tom Rees, Danny Care and Dylan Hartley to each put a substantial marker down by the end of the season. And, by substantial marker, I mean unquestionably nail down their spots.

By this time next year, that leaves us with:

1. Sheridan
2. Hartley
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
6. Croft
7. Rees
8. ?
9. Care
10. ?
11. ?
12. Flutey
13. ?
14. ?
15. Armitage

The above will be playing at a level necessary to take on the best in the World, which is the standard I'm setting, which is why Borthwick, Vickery et al don't get a look in whereas Flutey and Sheridan do. Anyone else confident of adding some other names to that side, based on who's got the talent and who's likely yo be given the opportunities?

I said it last season and I say it again, the entire system is fundamentally flawed and is a farce that should be scrapped or at least "revised". How can you name an entire Elite Squad when the season has not even started? I agree there are a number of players who are pretty much everyones selections but yet again other selections are at best controversial and at worst totally illogical.

Well said, cheery. This is one point (it's about the only one) where I would have told the clubs to suck it up and do what must be done in the negotiations: Let England name their squads in October.

So you don't know who's going to be available for every single week of the season? Big deal. And if Johnno wants to get the guys together for a chuckabout it August, good for him/them, but it doesn't need to be a pre-formed template for the squad for the rest of the year.

Just about the worst time to pick a squad you could possibly imagine.

I thought naming the squad early was so that they could ensure adequate rest for the EPS players during the first half the season leading up to the AIs. A week off in September, a week in October etc...?

Armitage wasn't in either squad this time last year but has played every England game since then, so it's hardly a massive hindrance anyway.

Going back a few posts, noticed that Tindall, Hipkiss and Tait are reckoned to be our best o/s centres, well 1 out of 3 isnt bad. If you want a 13 that cant/doesnt pass, can tackle provided someone is running straight at them but will be left for dead by anyone with pace and a side step then the other 2 are fine. Since we are picking crocked players why no JSD? Armitage can play 13 which would leave Foden to play at 15.
Omitting Thompson makes you wonder why he was drafted in for the end of season internationals anyway, surely another wasted opportunity to blood/develop other players?
Dont agree that Payne is better than Flatman, Kennedy is more useful than Deacon, Kay or Borthwick and Myler desrves a place above flood and JW as he (a) has form and (b) has 2 working legs.
Hope Dan Ward Smith will show some good form at Wasps to thrust himself into the senior squad and oust Easter as Guest hasnt been selected in either squad.

Why are we so obsessed with "development"? Pick the best players, the young players do and are coming through. Our core team is:

Sheridan (Who will make th next WC)
Mears/Hartley (Both will make the next WC)
Vickery (Can easily play two more years of international rugby, but might not depending on Cole/Corbisero/Wilson/Mercy)
Borthwick (will make the next WC)
Shaw/Deacon/Kennedy (Possibly Shaw won't but possibly could, I believe he has a club contract till then, so no point leading him to the glue factory when he's still the best)
Croft (Will make the WC)
Worsely (is young enough to make the next WC, more dependant on younger players coming through, but as with Shaw, he is still the best so pick him)
Easter (Will still be around for the world cup_
Ellis (will make the WC)
Flood/Wilko (Both will make WC)
Monye (will make WC)
Flutey (will make WC)
Tindall (should make WC but might not)
Cueto (Will make WC)
Armitage (Will make WC)


So basically we have a prop, a lock, an openside and a outside centre who MIGHT need replacing, but individually are quite likely to still be around.

There is no point annointing successers such as Rees, as it is still unclear where he fits in Wasps back row, he is the most likely to come through but isn't guaranteed.

Its the same reason, for me Flatman missed out on the saxons, Johnson wants Cole, Corbisaro and Mercy to be looked at in training, as Wilson was this year. Surely you all want players blooded rather than wasting time on over the hill never-even-had-it players like Flatman?

SK88 we need more than that replacing. People aren’t suggesting certain players won’t be there for the next world cup due to age, they are saying they shouldn’t be there through playing ability!

Why not get in some younger players who have a lot more promise than the old average players and give them a crack. Only problem is you don’t want to do it all at once and the team may develop another loosing habit which could be damaging.

The treatment of Cipriani, Allen, Tait, JSD, Foden, Kennedy has been shocking. Those boys are incredibly talented and they have been jerked around by their country come selection and support time. Cips is like Ronaldo. A petulant child most of their life, but nurtured could be world class. Why don’t we put a slight arm around the guy instead of beat him down? One approach isnt working, so why not react and do something different?

Fine lets get some of the youngsters performing without their petulance and become team members on and off the pitch.At international level you have not got time to mess around and to put other players in the team under unnecessary pressure.Maybe when they mature their talent will hopefully still be there.Its a job and a team game

SK88, excuse me for not being over the moon at the thought of a whole team that isn't fit to clean the Mars Bar wrappers out of the South African team bus all being around for the next World Cup.

I am, as you would put it, obsessed with development, because the team we have at the moment isn't within a million miles of being good enough. And how can we change that? Is it by giving them more training time, or hoping that Borthwick magically turns into a leader while on holiday in St Vincent this summer? Maybe Nick Eater will lose the stone and a half that he needs to lose by the start of the year. Maybe Wilko will have learned how to play flat while on the physio's table, maybe Mike Tindall will have learned to pass, maybe Phil Vickery has had a colonoscopy sufficient to find his head after the first Test.

In my opinion, it is emphatically not the way to get this team up to standard. If you believe that this group of players need only to 'gel' in order to challenge the best of the best, then fair enough. Personally I think that all 32 of them could have been raised on a farm together from the age of 5 and still wouldn't be able to crack it.

If you think that the young players do and are coming through, as you put it, I'd love to hear the names of these players that have been wisely brought on by the England management and given sufficient experience to be able to take on the best. I've ventured Croft and Armitage (and maybe Flutey), but I'm honestly stuck after those guys, and that's taken two entire seasons.

Worth observing that of the 18 forwards in the Senior Squad only 6 are below the age of 30...

And what the Hell is Dan Ward Smith doing in the Saxons? the man is a great player who has been unlucky with injuries. But hes 31 for Gods sake. Its too bl@@dy late.

would prefer to see DWS at 8 rather than Easter

Yes I think I would go along w that.

DWS, based on his pre-injury form from 3 years ago I presume?

Can't be bothered arguing with age-obsessed clueless whingebasher about the purpose of the Saxons squad.

Dont Then.

The Saxons is a development squad. Enough said.

Quote:

as it is still unclear where he fits in Wasps back row

He's first choice openside whenever he's available for selection. There's also a very high chance he will be made Wasps captain next year.

Do the SA's eat a lot of Marsbars on the team bus?

No, they just leave the wrappers there. Before you know it, Nick Easter's strung up from the roof in a hunter's trap and Pierre Spies is laughing his @rse off.

Young players that have come through to international level: Haskell, Croft, Monye, D.Armitage, S.Armitage, Hartley, Wilson, Crane, Kennedy (young-ish), Rees, Flood, Care, Cipriani, Gerhaty, Foden and more have all got chances when deserved.

Its not the fault of either the mangement or the older players that they're still the best around, the younger players need to go out and actually prove they are good enough rather than exist on phantom "talent" they might have if they get "experiance".

We should pick the best players, which I believe we actually did this year, and look at the results we came second in the 6N, top try scorers in that tournement, and the lions were at their nest when they picked more Englishmen.

Super Fred, Ed budge had suggeseted by next year we'd have not many players, I was illustrating that alomost the enitre team could go on to the next WC, I'd like youngsters to come through but I see no point in sacking off perfectly good players because others "might" become "better".

Quote:

SK 88
Young players that have come through to international level: Haskell, Croft, Monye, D.Armitage, S.Armitage, Hartley, Wilson, Crane, Kennedy (young-ish), Rees, Flood, Care, Cipriani, Gerhaty, Foden and more have all got chances when deserved.
Its not the fault of either the mangement or the older players that they're still the best around, the younger players need to go out and actually prove they are good enough rather than exist on phantom "talent" they might have if they get "experiance".

We should pick the best players, which I believe we actually did this year, and look at the results we came second in the 6N, top try scorers in that tournement, and the lions were at their nest when they picked more Englishmen.

Super Fred, Ed budge had suggeseted by next year we'd have not many players, I was illustrating that alomost the enitre team could go on to the next WC, I'd like youngsters to come through but I see no point in sacking off perfectly good players because others "might" become "better".

Utter nonsense.

Part of the art of being a selector/coach/manager is spotting players that can flourish at top level, then backing your choice and giving them a decent run in the side unlike Sam Vesty (Was it 15 mins out of position?) or Jordan Turner Hall having the misfortune to win his first cap in an awful performance against the Barbarians. Matthew Tate, a natural footballer and serious talent has just been left on the bench.

This is one of the things that Robbie Deans and Graham Henry are so good at. They can see things in rugby players that few others can. Not only that they have the courage and confidence to back their choices, and offer a vision for the future to boot.

Where the hell has Charlie Hodgson got to?? Oh yes he missed a tackle on Nonu a while back so he obviously cant hack it at top table.

MJ had zero coaching experience when he came into the job.
Wells was a (good) journeyman Prem player. No more.
Smith won 15 caps (6 of those for a decidedly average Irish side.

Enough said.

Listening to people like you takes me back to English rugby in the Seventies. Its the narrow minded negative and timid mindset that gets up so many peoples noses including mine if you havent noticed?

Quote:

SK 88
Young players that have come through to international level: Haskell, Croft, Monye, D.Armitage, S.Armitage, Hartley, Wilson, Crane, Kennedy (young-ish), Rees, Flood, Care, Cipriani, Gerhaty, Foden and more have all got chances when deserved.
Its not the fault of either the mangement or the older players that they're still the best around, the younger players need to go out and actually prove they are good enough rather than exist on phantom "talent" they might have if they get "experiance".

We should pick the best players, which I believe we actually did this year, and look at the results we came second in the 6N, top try scorers in that tournement, and the lions were at their nest when they picked more Englishmen.

Super Fred, Ed budge had suggeseted by next year we'd have not many players, I was illustrating that alomost the enitre team could go on to the next WC, I'd like youngsters to come through but I see no point in sacking off perfectly good players because others "might" become "better".

Mostly agree with all that. The bit in bold is SPOT ON and seems lost on a lot of people.

Reminds me of something Shaun Fitzpatrick said on rugby club a year or two ago. How he doesn't think the English management should hesitate picking the best players in their position, even if they happen to be older players like Shaw et al. If they're the best, pick them.

You develop a squad of players by first creating a winning mentality amongst the team. Then slowly introduce younger players 'for the future' bit by bit. Not all at once, in a struggling team as whingebasher would foolishly have us do. I'm fed up with an England team that's constantly changing personel week in week out, just for the sake of trying out the latest flavour of the month and one thing that MJ has done is bring a degree of stability to the side. We know who 2 thirds of our team are as opposed to the 'up-in-the-air' mantra of Robinson and Ashton.

Quote:

whingebasher
Where the hell has Charlie Hodgson got to?? Oh yes he missed a tackle on Nonu a while back so he obviously cant hack it at top table.

MJ had zero coaching experience when he came into the job.
Wells was a (good) journeyman Prem player. No more.
Smith won 15 caps (6 of those for a decidedly average Irish side.

Enough said.

Utter b0llocks.

Enough said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:14:19:52:19 by Patrick.

Go on then. Tell us all about coaching and selection credentials of the England setup.

The floor is yours.

I found it laughable that you blame Hodgson's recent international absence solely because of his missed a tackle on Nonu, and nothing else.

I also can't help but cringe at your suggestion that just because a coach wasn't a double trophy winner as a player with his name going down in legend, that therefore means he can't make a successful coach.

You also seem to apply the 'wasn't a very successful player so must be a rubbish coach' to Wells and Ford, but you conveniently don't apply that thinking re: Johnson. Interesting.

I say that MJ had NO COACHING EXPERIENCE when he came to the job. In other words he was hired solely on what he had achieved as a player. MJ was a many time tropht winner. That doesnt mean he will become a good coach. Read the posting.

You only need to look at the results from this last year to see that `something` isnt working.

I wonder if you can guess what it is?? Im not very optimistic to be honest Mr Bollocks.

Quote:

whingebasher
I say that MJ had NO COACHING EXPERIENCE when he came to the job. In other words he was hired solely on what he had achieved as a player.

Yes but you apply different rules for different management. You slam Wells and Smith for not being amazing players, because somehow that means something... but then don't apply the same rule to Johnson who had quite a good record as a player.

Quote:

whingebasher
MJ was a many time tropht winner. That doesnt mean he will become a good coach. Read the posting.

Again, yet your argument against Wells and Ford is based on the fact that they weren't a good player. So which is it? Is it important that a coach/manager had a good playing career to take charge of the national team or not? If it's Wells and Ford it is, but not in Johnson's case conveniently?

Totally hypocritical and confused.

And by the way, Johnson wasn't hired as a coach. Wells, Ford, Smith and Rowntree were. Johnson is the manager. Small but important detail that.

Quote:

whingebasher
You only need to look at the results from this last year to see that `something` isnt working.

Second in the Six Nations, ending up losing the competition with a 1 point loss to Ireland away at Croke Park, top try scorers and best defense in the Six Nations. Followed by a big win against Argentina, followed by a 2 point loss away, wthout 9 Lions and playing our 4th choice fly half in a famously tough place to tour.

Everything's not rosy, but it's certainly improved since the autumn and from recent years. Hopefully things are on the way up and let's see how we perform in Johnson's second year in charge before throwing the book at him as you so ridiculously do, ad nauseum.

IF England are so bad, what must you think of Wales? Fourth in the Six Nations, terrible try count and a very leaky defense. Add on top of that, totally unconvincing against the USA in the Summer. Does that mean their coaches are rubbish and should be sacked as well?

Quote:

whingebasher
I wonder if you can guess what it is?? Im not very optimistic to be honest Mr Bollocks.

You're never optimistic. Ever. Moan, whinge, complain, moan, slate blah blah ad nauseum. You called our first half against France this year "the only half decent performance England have put in since 2003" Puhhlease.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:14:22:07:48 by Patrick.

Quote:

whingebasher
I say that MJ had NO COACHING EXPERIENCE when he came to the job. In other words he was hired solely on what he had achieved as a player. MJ was a many time tropht winner. That doesnt mean he will become a good coach. Read the posting.
You only need to look at the results from this last year to see that `something` isnt working.

I wonder if you can guess what it is?? Im not very optimistic to be honest Mr Bollocks.

I give you Emanuelle Steward, not a great amateur boxer, but possibly the best coach ever. Different sport yes, but the same rules apply. Are the best players the best coaches? From my experience I'd say no.

Quote:

Patrick

Quote:

whingebasher
I say that MJ had NO COACHING EXPERIENCE when he came to the job. In other words he was hired solely on what he had achieved as a player.

Yes but you apply different rules for different management. You slam Wells and Smith for not being amazing players, because somehow that means something... but then don't apply the same rule to Johnson who had quite a good record as a player.

Quote:

whingebasher
MJ was a many time tropht winner. That doesnt mean he will become a good coach. Read the posting.

Again, yet your argument against Wells and Ford is based on the fact that they weren't a good player. So which is it? Is it important that a coach/manager had a good playing career to take charge of the national team or not? If it's Wells and Ford it is, but not in Johnson's case conveniently?

Totally hypocritical and confused.

And by the way, Johnson wasn't hired as a coach. Wells, Ford, Smith and Rowntree were. Johnson is the manager. Small but important detail that.

Quote:

whingebasher
You only need to look at the results from this last year to see that `something` isnt working.

Second in the Six Nations, ending up losing the competition with a 1 point loss to Ireland away at Croke Park, top try scorers and best defense in the Six Nations. Followed by a big win against Argentina, followed by a 2 point loss away, wthout 9 Lions and playing our 4th choice fly half in a famously tough place to tour.

Everything's not rosy, but it's certainly improved since the autumn and from recent years. Hopefully things are on the way up and let's see how we perform in Johnson's second year in charge before throwing the book at him as you so ridiculously do, ad nauseum.

IF England are so bad, what must you think of Wales? Fourth in the Six Nations, terrible try count and a very leaky defense. Add on top of that, totally unconvincing against the USA in the Summer. Does that mean their coaches are rubbish and should be sacked as well?

Quote:

whingebasher
I wonder if you can guess what it is?? Im not very optimistic to be honest Mr Bollocks.

You're never optimistic. Ever. Moan, whinge, complain, moan, slate blah blah ad nauseum. You called our first half against France this year "the only half decent performance England have put in since 2003" Puhhlease.

God your life is complicated. Havent you got anything better to do with your day than publish nit picking multi volume manuscripts on here? Do you keep notes as well?

Id rather call a spade a spade than be a jingoistic ostrich like you.

Glad to see that your knowledge of the rest of the game is as deep as your views on scrum half play.

Jingoistic? Where is Patrick Jingoistic?

That'll be the comments such as 'everything's not rosey' then?

It isn't jingoistic to point out that the moaners on here are convinced that the grass is always greener on the other side.

I'd have thought someone called whingebasher would be bashing people that whinge but it seems to mean you bash out the whinges non stop.

I think the attitude that we must have the best players in the world and therefore any season we don't go undefeated winning every match in style is a failure of the coaches is far more jingoistic.

Not rosey is the understatement of the century.

If you can be satisfied with 3rd rate mediocrity you must be a very happy man.

I've gotta say, Patrick, that points difference doesn't pay the piper, I'm afraid. Neither does having the best defence, or the best line-out percentage or anything else.

From my point of view, I agree wholeheartedly with Sean Fitzparick that the best players should always be picked. But we've seen time and time again that the criteria applied to this measurement have been skewed and corrupted.

It's proved almost impossible to play your way out of this England side and equally impossible to play your way in. And the argument about form is always manipulated to favour certain players, usually the older ones. An experienced player who has proved time and again that he has no impact at the top level can always find his way into the squad with a good showing in the Prem, whereas a younger one will be asked to sink or swim, and if it's the former, they can easily find themselves in the wilderness for years.

Johnno gave a pretty glaring example in the paper this morning. When asked about Jonny, he said: "I think he can be [as good as he's ever been]." When asked about Cips and the young players outside the squad: "They've now all got to prove us wrong."

Maybe I'm being a little manipulative myself here, but I think it's a legitimate demonstration of a wider point. The young talents have got to prove what they can do, whereas Jonny et al can be selected based on Johnno's hunches. What more can it be given that he hasn't played in 10 months? Apparently, you've only got to prove yourself once, and it doesn't matter whether it was this season or 5 seasons ago.

He also jabbered on about the value of experience, and I'll say what I've said before. Experience is PART of what makes someone a good player, it's PART of what produces results on the pitch. You don't have a level of performance and then 'x' amount of experience on top of it. And yet the guys with more of it are invariably ranked above those without, despite tuning in one mediocre display after another in Test matches.

I would really like to know where MJ has suddenly got so much form info on JW?

I had no confidence in his judgement before, and I have even less now.

Soon he`ll be on the same planet as PDV.

According to the reports it is from the fitness tests JW did for Toulon.

He was very close to being fit towards the end of last season and has had a fair period of fitness now rather than being rushed back in.

Making a special case for JW is not the same as doing it for any other player.

I think Cipriani should have had his operation sooner and had a longer pre-season too but can understand why he wanted to keep playing while there was an outside shot of an injury call up for the Lions.

Ed, it clearly isn't impossible to play your way out of this England side, ask your boy Cipriani!

But is it harder for the experienced players to be dropped?

I don't know. He could have picked Lewsey or Balshaw or Cueto ahead of Delon Armitage. He could have picked Worsley at 6 ahead of Croft all year.

A lot is made of Deacon over Kennedy as though it is a retrograde 'player from the past' vs 'one for the future'. They are in the same school year.

Im amongst many when I say that nothing would please me more to see JW strutting around a rugby field again, but hes got no form at this time. He also has more than a reputation for breaking down.

I wouldnt read anything into the fact that Mourad Bougellal has promised him a big sum. He has far more money than sense as hes already proved.

Lively little thread this!

I think the results have improved slightly, but the performances certainly have not. Plus, the improved results are a short term positive. With insufficient talent being developed this side will be over the hill in a few years.

I agree that you should pick your best 15, but within reason.

There isn't much point in picking a mid 30's guy who is only going to go backwards, and retire before the world cup.
Ed, WhingeBasher and myself would seruiosly argue that this is the best 15.
We need to look to the future. If all the youngsters were rubbish I wouldn't be suggesting we play them.

Let me use Foden as an example. The most exciting young back I have seen (since C Hodgson). A real rare talent. If he was an All Black he'd be in the team. Just because Armitage has done well, it doesn't mean someone else can do better. That is the nature of competition. Foden is recognised as the best attacking 15 in the Prem, arguably Europe. So how much game time has this talent been given. 25 mins against Scotland and a start against Italy? NO!! 5 mins at scrum hals, and that was it. Shocking piece of management.

There are others, but Foden is the best example. As Ed says, the youngsters don't get a look in, but if you were good 5 years ago, you walk back into the team.

There is a balance, and it would be madness to play 15 17 year olds! But Johnsons balance is way way off for my liking.

Nice points, clutch. The team could even conceivably accomodate both Armitage and Foden - if Johnson (Ford) is insistent the outside centre must be a strong, powerful ball carrier who tackles well but is something of a crowbar, I'd rather that the role was given to Armitage who regularly performs there for London Irish since he has a good turn of pace on him and also has the ability to switch positions if necessary. His kicking is an added bonus.

I'm also somewhat leery of saying we had a good 6N. On paper we finished well, but we bolstered the stats by playing that Italy team, glossed over a dreadful Ireland game by virture of a late score and the French team was the worst I've seen in a long time, I was at the match and they looked beaten before the anthems started.

Some progress has been made, but the team needs to be constantly evolve and players need to be in fear of their places all the time to drive them to perform at a high level. Look at the All Blacks - Rokocoko's been off colour for a couple of games, so he's been benched in favour of Sivivatu.

The treatment of Foden is little short of disgraceful. Somehow, despite his justified nomination for numerous end-of-season accolades, he has found himself superceded by Olly Morgan whose Gloucester side have completely capitulated, albeit through little fault of his.

So why was he ditched? Premiership form? Or failing to set the world alight in 5 minutes out of position when he was told to kick everything he touched?

That's the benchmark for young, attacking talents. Rip the opposition to bits on debut or we'll see you in five years when you've bulked up and lost your pace.