Old Prop Steve
Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Old Prop Steve
By Old Prop Steve
July 24 2009
STEVE'S BLOG: The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop - - - - - In my usual way of repeatedly questioning the status quo in rugby - I ask WHY? One of the old reasons advanced for keeping things as they are was that if the value of the penalty was to be reduced (or goal kicking made too difficult) then players would cheat more.
Old Prop Steve
July 24 2009
STEVE'S BLOG: The Musings Of A Grumpy Old Prop - - - - - In my usual way of repeatedly questioning the status quo in rugby - I ask WHY? One of the old reasons advanced for keeping things as they are was that if the value of the penalty was to be reduced (or goal kicking made too difficult) then players would cheat more.
Steve's Blog No 12
July 24th 2009
Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil?
For as long as I can remember, observers of our great game have bemoaned the influence of goal kicking upon the results of matches.
From time to time the Law makers seemed to have agreed and have increased the value of a try from three to four and now five points, introduced the indirect free kick for certain offences but curiously, since the advent of professionalism in 1995 and despite various ELVs, nothing has changed in this area.
As the Pirates swept up through the Leagues a few years ago they enjoyed the fruits of Nat Saumi's boot which clocked up hundreds of points every season. Just how much they relied upon him was amply illustrated when he sadly left under a cloud just as they embarked upon National One for the first time.
Inexplicably they then set off at this higher level without a front line goal kicker. The result was a near disaster and they very nearly paid for it with a swift relegation.
The coach at the time was Kevin Moseley and the following season he saw the light and brought in both Lee Jarvis and Tom Barlow. These in turn were of course succeeded by the metronomic Alberto di Bernardo and Gareth Steenson. Things wobbled again last season until Rhys Jones began to really come into his own as the season wore on. The pressure on these players is of course immense and yet as a 'one off' skill it is almost as much akin to golf as to rugby.
In other words, the influence of one player's form in one isolated facet of what is essentially a running and physical contact sport repeatedly dominates the overall result. This is despite the fact that the ability to kick goals requires neither running nor contact nor indeed very much athletic prowess at all. Of course in US football it is taken to the extreme and the kicker rarely gets involved in any other facet of play whatsoever.
Every now and then this comes up to the surface in the media - often when a country feels aggrieved that it has lost a match just because the other side had a Carter, Wilkinson or a Jenkins.
I well recall the outcry when the British Lions outscored the All Blacks in Dunedin by four tries to nil but lost 17-18 as the late Don Clarke kicked six massive penalties awarded by a New Zealand based ( I nearly wrote biased!) referee. That was a very, very long time ago and yet nothing much has changed.
In my usual way of repeatedly questioning the status quo in rugby - I ask WHY?
One of the old reasons advanced for keeping things as they are was that if the value of the penalty was to be reduced (or goal kicking made too difficult) then players would cheat more. This was undoubtedly true but, since the excellent innovation of the yellow card system, I would suggest referees have a very effective way of dealing with that if they choose to use it.
A second reason I have heard is that there is high drama in the goal kick itself. I fundamentally disagree. If there are ten attempts at goal in a match taking an average of fifty seconds each the clock is ticking for eight and a half minutes of a match during which twenty nine players are going precisely nothing. Is that entertainment?
Just to compound matters the Laws of the Game stack everything in the kicker's favour.
The other team has to stand still, he is given a full minute to make his kick and for the past few years they even give him a kicking tee. Once again I question WHY?
Of course it is the same for both sides but my point is that, given all the physical effort, tactics and preparation that goes into the overall game, the influence of this single aspect is wholly disproportionate.
Furthermore if rugby is ever to be a truly global spectator sport I wonder if this needs addressing. You don't need to change the rules of the game very much - just make the goal kicker's job a lot more difficult.
A few simple ideas spring to mind.
1) Reduce the time allowed for a kick at goal from sixty seconds to forty.
2) Ban the use of kicking tees, piles of sand etc.
3) At a penalty attempt the penalised team has to retire fifteen or even twenty yards rather than the current ten but can then charge at the kicker. The kicker could however use a drop kick.
More radical departures might include
1) Every team has to have three nominated kickers and they each have to take one in turn before the first can take his next shot.
2) Narrow the distance by a couple of feet between the goalposts. It would look a bit odd to begin with but we would soon get used to it!
3) The oft-suggested differential penalty - e.g. three points for foul play but only two for offside, technical scrummaging offences or being off your feet in a ruck etc.
I would also like to see coaches re-introduce many more creative set moves from penalty kicks. We rarely see these today unless it is near the end of a match and more than three points are required to snatch a win. I would suggest that these changes would give them much more incentive to explore such set moves once again.
So fellow Pirates…. have I been off smoking the wrong stuff again or do you agree that there are a few ways we could make the game we all love even more exciting?
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StumbleuponGoal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: OLD PROP STEVE (IP Logged)
Date: 24/07/2009 12:29
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:24:12:35:03 by Dotcom.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:07:24:12:35:03 by Dotcom.
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: woll (IP Logged)
Date: 24/07/2009 13:38
One thing clear in my mind is that a total rebuff of the skill of goalkicking by the rule makers is not an option. Taken to an extreme then there'd be no need for the posts let alone reducing the uprights width. (Roundball has in the past toyed with the idea of extending the width by contrast)
However, I am in agreement with reducing the amount of time 'wasted' by the taking of a kick. Maybe the clock should be stopped? Although there would then be the bugbear of the extended amount of time a game would take to complete, something which already comes under scrutiny and criticism.
But rather than overcomplicate things why not just reward endeavour?
The penalty try already does a job for repeated infringements, (although when on the receiving end why does it always seem harsh?
).
Why not then also, when an advantage has been signalled award an extra point (or two) for a drop goal attempt or; if the penalty is awarded and chosen to run instead of taking the pot at goal? If this point/these points were allowed to stand regardless of the outcome of the dg or run at the line, would it not be reasonable incentive to eventually override any conservative tendancies both on and off the pitch?
How many of us now watching see a penalty given and consciously think "take the 3 on offer"; and then get all huffy when the corner is kicked for and no points result? Knowing that 1 or 2 points are on the board regardless would go someway to alleiviating that mindset and encourage bolder coaching and strategy? It would also not do away with the (more) dramatic end of game kicks at goal to win/gain the bonus point, as this would still apply.
If you're going through hell...keep going
However, I am in agreement with reducing the amount of time 'wasted' by the taking of a kick. Maybe the clock should be stopped? Although there would then be the bugbear of the extended amount of time a game would take to complete, something which already comes under scrutiny and criticism.
But rather than overcomplicate things why not just reward endeavour?
The penalty try already does a job for repeated infringements, (although when on the receiving end why does it always seem harsh?
).
Why not then also, when an advantage has been signalled award an extra point (or two) for a drop goal attempt or; if the penalty is awarded and chosen to run instead of taking the pot at goal? If this point/these points were allowed to stand regardless of the outcome of the dg or run at the line, would it not be reasonable incentive to eventually override any conservative tendancies both on and off the pitch?
How many of us now watching see a penalty given and consciously think "take the 3 on offer"; and then get all huffy when the corner is kicked for and no points result? Knowing that 1 or 2 points are on the board regardless would go someway to alleiviating that mindset and encourage bolder coaching and strategy? It would also not do away with the (more) dramatic end of game kicks at goal to win/gain the bonus point, as this would still apply.
If you're going through hell...keep going
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: POSTS (IP Logged)
Date: 24/07/2009 13:44
Sorry Steve on this one i think you really must have been smoking the wrong stuff.
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: Pirate Pig. (IP Logged)
Date: 24/07/2009 16:48
Kicking itself is a skill just like passing and throwing into a line out and to be honest we have at least moved away from the days of the 9-6 kicking dual that we often used to see.
Quite often the 'goal kicker' is also the team kicker responsible for all facets of the teams kicking game including restarts(how important are they),drop outs,line kicking and the good old 'garryowen'.
So as you see the team kicker is actually a multi skilled player quite often spending hours out on the training field when everyone else has gone home.
Its a difficult balance for the law makers,reduce the points and players are more liable to 'cheat' increase the points and coaches are more likely to adopt a more 'negative' approach and rely more on their kickers to win them matches.
IF we are concerned with the number of penalties given away,why not allow a team a certain number of penalties per match and then once they have reached their limit for every 2 penalties after that limit,they loose a player for 10 minutes.
I think we are actually seeing more attacking play and maybe other than stopping the clock for kicks at goal maybe we should resist any calls for further changes to our game.(but then being an ex-kicker myself I'm bound to say that).
Quite often the 'goal kicker' is also the team kicker responsible for all facets of the teams kicking game including restarts(how important are they),drop outs,line kicking and the good old 'garryowen'.
So as you see the team kicker is actually a multi skilled player quite often spending hours out on the training field when everyone else has gone home.
Its a difficult balance for the law makers,reduce the points and players are more liable to 'cheat' increase the points and coaches are more likely to adopt a more 'negative' approach and rely more on their kickers to win them matches.
IF we are concerned with the number of penalties given away,why not allow a team a certain number of penalties per match and then once they have reached their limit for every 2 penalties after that limit,they loose a player for 10 minutes.
I think we are actually seeing more attacking play and maybe other than stopping the clock for kicks at goal maybe we should resist any calls for further changes to our game.(but then being an ex-kicker myself I'm bound to say that).
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: *Stalwart (IP Logged)
Date: 24/07/2009 17:54
I have to agree with PP on this - there is a great deal of skill and endless hours of practice in being an effective goal kicker. I find it fascinating to watch - similar to a smooth golf swing or a perfectly executed cover drive. Teams have to be punished for cheating and refs often aren't using the yellow card for its intended purpose. Too often the yellow card is used as an easy way out for what should be a sending off, and not used for cynical, professional offences.
It can be incredibly dramatic to see the last kick of the game (be it penalty, drop goal or conversion) seal a win, draw or loss. Many stick out in your mind for years. I clearly remember a certain full back sealing a win over Lanson with the last kick of the game at The Mennaye many years ago!
Maybe increasing the value of a conversion to 3, or even 4 points would create a more adventurous approach.
It can be incredibly dramatic to see the last kick of the game (be it penalty, drop goal or conversion) seal a win, draw or loss. Many stick out in your mind for years. I clearly remember a certain full back sealing a win over Lanson with the last kick of the game at The Mennaye many years ago!
Maybe increasing the value of a conversion to 3, or even 4 points would create a more adventurous approach.
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: cheshire exile (IP Logged)
Date: 26/07/2009 11:15
A basic observation; penalties are awarded because rules have been broken. Making things harder for the kicker means that breaking the rules is less likely to be punished. watching the Lions/Boks series , it seemed to me that penalties could have been given at virtually every breakdown.
The unlamented ELV experiment in the Southern hemisphere, resulting in many more free kicks, was a complete failure.
If there are insufficient sanctions for penalty offences, the game will become increasingly anarchic as players becoming ever fitter and stronger[IMHO].
The unlamented ELV experiment in the Southern hemisphere, resulting in many more free kicks, was a complete failure.
If there are insufficient sanctions for penalty offences, the game will become increasingly anarchic as players becoming ever fitter and stronger[IMHO].
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: Maid 'n Mouthy (IP Logged)
Date: 27/07/2009 08:40
Far more time and effort is wasted with Referees sorting out Front Rows who can't seem to string together the understanding of a few simple procedures - crouch, touch, pause, engage, then bind on and push when the ball comes in.
Far more your area of expertise, with respect, OPS, - get that sorted and there won't be as many penalties.
Far more your area of expertise, with respect, OPS, - get that sorted and there won't be as many penalties.
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: LadockPirate (IP Logged)
Date: 27/07/2009 11:41
Oh dear Steve - wot have you done? Appears you might have ventured outside of your normal habitat and into a far more visible part of the game where many more people have an insight. Interesting and thought provoking nonetheless.
I'll mention your views to Jnr who is starting his U15s season tonight with a weekly positional skills clinic run by the CRFU at Truro School. His position? Flyhalf!!
I'll mention your views to Jnr who is starting his U15s season tonight with a weekly positional skills clinic run by the CRFU at Truro School. His position? Flyhalf!!
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: old prop steve (IP Logged)
Date: 28/07/2009 14:58
I was starting to worry that too many people were seeming to agree me on all the previous blogs - but I can see I'm really 'Billy No Mates' on this one. About time too!
I am flying another kite for folks to have a pot at next week - on the streams of substitutions - so do keep the arguments flowing please.
I am flying another kite for folks to have a pot at next week - on the streams of substitutions - so do keep the arguments flowing please.
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: Ludgvan Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 04/08/2009 20:21
Sorry Steve, but you and Phil W were wrong last summer when Crowlas Boy asked for the 5 best and 5 worst games for the Pirates. I said that Bleddyn Williams Dr Jack Matthews Rex Willis and Cliff Morgan together with Malcolm Collins who came from Heamoore -Long Rock, Played against the Pirates in the late forties, Malcolm being a member of the Tony collins family who did great work both playing and helping the Pirates in future generations and Cornwall, and the Pirates beating them at this game, the Cardiff team being full of other Welsh Internationals who I cant rememember, but I know that Tony Collins has an old Programme, Which may be insignificant as it was confirmed in the Cornishman 2 weeks ago, in a tribute to the two great centers, that this was correct, although you said that it was wrong and that the Pirates had beaten Cardiff in 1950, Steve you are a little bit younger than I am, and I was at both matches, and thought this the better game as Cardiff probably had more British and Irish Lions wether past or present in their team at that time, although the pirates winning both, it was probably the Pirates best team ever, before professional rugby. Perhaps Steve you can pass this on to Crowlas Boy and Phil W
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: Norwich Pirate (IP Logged)
Date: 05/08/2009 11:56
I think I am with you on this one Steve. At the end of the day it is only one of many many aspects of the game and its influence is disproportionate.
If you outscrum the opposition or your lineout functions far better or you make fewer handling mistakes as a team then surely these things are just as if not more (as they involve the team and not individuals) worthy of merit than that your kicker outkicks the other sides? yet a team could easily dominate in these three areas and still lose the game if they dont have a great kicker or their kicker has a bad day and the others has a good one. If your team plays better overall then surely you deserve to win...
Of course, making it harder could make the problem even worse. For example I think if we made the posts 2m across Scotland would probably win every game (with Paterson in their team)!!! And are they the best team? I dont think so!
I think a kick to the corner is a reasonable punishment in most cases (their is always a debate as to which option is better anyway!) and for any fouls close to the line you just use the card, so i think i would reduce the value of the penalty to two.
As for conversions, they effectively mean that a try under the posts is worth much more than a try in the corner and im not so sure i see the logic in that. Often the tries in the corner are far more worthy of merit than those under the posts so why are they worth so much less?
If you outscrum the opposition or your lineout functions far better or you make fewer handling mistakes as a team then surely these things are just as if not more (as they involve the team and not individuals) worthy of merit than that your kicker outkicks the other sides? yet a team could easily dominate in these three areas and still lose the game if they dont have a great kicker or their kicker has a bad day and the others has a good one. If your team plays better overall then surely you deserve to win...
Of course, making it harder could make the problem even worse. For example I think if we made the posts 2m across Scotland would probably win every game (with Paterson in their team)!!! And are they the best team? I dont think so!
I think a kick to the corner is a reasonable punishment in most cases (their is always a debate as to which option is better anyway!) and for any fouls close to the line you just use the card, so i think i would reduce the value of the penalty to two.
As for conversions, they effectively mean that a try under the posts is worth much more than a try in the corner and im not so sure i see the logic in that. Often the tries in the corner are far more worthy of merit than those under the posts so why are they worth so much less?
Re: Goal Kickers - For Good Or Evil? - Old Prop Steve
Posted by: covmick1/Michael Carter (IP Logged)
Date: 06/08/2009 11:16
I rememner when kickers used to take what seemed an age to make the attempt. Former Harlequin and England full back Bob Hillier had a full time allowance in taking his kicks. He followed the same procedure all his career. When kicking tees became the norm it was very funny to see different shapes and sizes tried and tested by many players. One old Coventry player Steve Gough used sand. It had to be a special type of sand ! he came from near the windscale atomic plant one wag said that it was "atomic sand" The other one I recall was a player who went to South Africa, Upon lineing up to take a kick he tried very hard to plant his heel into the ground ! The result was avery bruised Heel that meant he could play no further part in his South African adventure.
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