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The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear


By Dragons Den
January 7 2015

Chairman Bleddyn Phillips has been interviewd by the Telegraph with regards to the funding issue. See full article below.....

London Welsh chairman Bleddyn Philips has warned that his club are prepared to take legal action by the end of this month should no resolution be found to what he terms the "closed shop" of professional rugby in this country.

Phillips, who retired last year from his position as a senior partner at the law firm Clifford Chance, believes the uneven distribution of revenues in the PRL, which sees London Welsh get around £1.5m per season from a central pot compared with the £4m given to the more established Aviva Premiership clubs, has created a "cabal" with the country's biggest clubs looking after their own interests rather than the good of the game.

Repeated efforts to appeal to their sense of fair play have, he says, so far fallen on deaf ears, with the result that he and the club's advisors are now, reluctantly, exploring "other options". "We are dead serious about this," Phillips told Telegraph Sport. "It has to get resolved this month one way or another."

Asked whether that constituted an ultimatum, Phillips added: "I think posing ultimata never really helps. It never really helps to point a pistol at someone's head. That said, people have been aware of what we have said for weeks and weeks and weeks, so I think it's perhaps time for a gentle reminder, that now is the time to come to a view and close down the debate.

"Because if we are unable to do that then we will have to look at what the options are. It's not unreasonable to do that having flagged it up for months."


London Welsh are currently rooted to the foot of the Premiership, having failed to win a game all season, and immediate relegation back to the Championship appears all but assured. But Phillips said their complaints did not amount to "sour grapes".

"This is something which has concerned us for a long time," he said.

"It concerned us a couple of years ago [when Welsh were last in the Premiership] but we ran with it then. It was a concern to us again at the start of this season because clearly standards have gone up since we were last here, and clearly the funding has gone up.

"I think I raised it first with the PR executive back in July. We have had discussions on and off. And I have formally written to all the PRL chairmen and owners back in November, and to the RFU as well, and said 'look guys, we get a third to a half of what the established clubs get'. So whereas we might get £1.5-£1.7m, they get nearer to £4m.

"Gosh, if we had that extra £2.5m we could go out and get 10 or 12 real quality players worth £100,000 to £200,000 each. That is the difference between having a really competitive squad and not having a really competitive squad.

"Obviously there are also things like the academy. Part of the central funding that we do get is taken away from us automatically, and put towards the academy costs, even though we don't have an academy. How bizarre is that?

"And then there is the age-old chestnut about promotion and relegation, you don't know until June whether you are up or down. You could so easily rectify that."

Phillips said he preferred not to discuss the ongoing controversy over the salary cap as he had "other battles to fight at the moment" but said he was "for an even playing in all things" whether that is funding or the salary cap".

He added that the motion tabled by Gareth Thomas MP last autumn calling on the the UK and EU competition authorities to investigate Premiership Rugby to assess whether "UK competition and anti-cartel rules are being broken" was "not of direct relevance" to Welsh's current position but warned doubters that Welsh were up for the fight should it come to it.

"One would rather do it through discussion," he said. "Mediation and consensus is always the best solution but as Teddy Roosevelt said 'Walk softly carry a big stick.' One shouldn't be afraid. People should have learnt from two years ago, when we challenged the RFU on the primacy of tenure point and won, we are not afraid to challenge it through the appropriate channels if that is what it will take.

"But the point here is that it isn't just about London Welsh. The battle is being fought for any club who aspires to play top level rugby. It is a matter of principle, trying to ensure that there is a level playing field there for everybody, it is not just the preserve of the few."

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The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
The Dragons' Den (IP Logged)
07/01/2015 19:23
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
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Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
trickybroon (IP Logged)
08/01/2015 12:00
He will have a legal team that will have the RFU spluttering over their morning G & T's.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
garrob66 (IP Logged)
08/01/2015 15:47
Interesting comments left in the papers where this has been published. Sadly a lot of them are making us seem like we're behaving like sulking children.
Maybe we should just decline promotion next season (if we get the chance) and regroup. Have a couple of really good years in the Championship which will hopefully build/re-build a fan base (whether it's Oxford, Richmond or where-ever), to prove to potential backers that we are a worthwhile investment capable of 'doing an Exeter' in the long term.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Welshboy69 (IP Logged)
08/01/2015 16:30
Paul Rees has a far more sympathetic article in the Guardian's "The Breakdown" see

[www.theguardian.com]

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
dragon82 (IP Logged)
08/01/2015 20:49
Some of those quotes just make me want to bang my head against the wall to be honest and don't help the club one bit.

I read an article earlier in the week in which Dean Richards said that we need to stop moaning about funding and get on with it.

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

Do you know who receives the least amount of funding aside from us? Northampton Saints. That's right, Aviva Premiership champions Northampton Saints. They're not moaning just creating a successful club from the bottom up. Even prior to their relegation in 2007 they realised the ethos of the club needed to change. They focused on having a smaller squad that had more quality, a successful academy, focus on investment in sports science and revamped the club commercially. If we were to do that the success wouldn't be immediate but it would move the club forward. The reason that other clubs (and the RFU) aren't leaping to our defence more is because there's no interest in moving the infrastructure of the club forward.

2m could buy us 10 better players. Would that make us more competitive. Yes of course it would. But then who else thought that signing Piri Weepu would make us significantly better? I did. What about Gonzalo Tiesi and Julio Farias Cabello two years ago? I didn't know much about them but as Pumas internationals I had little doubt we'd be better with them than without them. What happened? We didn't win with them in the side until we played Worcester and had long been relegated. What's my point? Throwing money at players doesn't guarantee success. In fact with all the criticism we've had this year regarding player turnover it's surprising to hear that the answer to all of our problems is...more signings! Our thought process should be more innovative. We should be looking at how to get the best out of what we do have rather than thinking let's just throw money at players.

Have any of you seen the film Moneyball? It's fascinating and is based on a Major League Baseball team called the Oakland A's. They were in our situation having around a third of the funds to invest that the big teams did, so they changed the way they scouted players and invested off the field to remain competitive. Their General Manager is a guy called Billy Beane and remains one of the most respected execs in professional sport anywhere. Yes it's a different sport but there are similarities we in our funding situations.

Similarly the quote about having money deducted from our funding for an academy despite is not having one. This is obviously a policy by the RFU to install the correct behaviours in the clubs which are funded. If we are serious about growing as a club we should have an academy! Even Lyn Jones said as much when he left. There needs to be investment in the future and the RFU are trying to encourage this by offering funding for clubs with academy's. No academy? No funding for an academy. Simple.

So a post which isn't very positive I'm afraid! But my frustration is that we should be looking at ways to make the club competitive in the long term. Quite simply even if we had 2m for 10 players what happens of we struggle in a season or two seasons time, the players leave and we're right back to square one. Instead of short term fix we should be thinking about long term gains. A viable long term business plan.

I wish the team all the best on Sunday. I really hope they can get a result after a much better performance against Quins.
COYW

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
chappers (IP Logged)
08/01/2015 21:42
Very valid points in their own rights, but the bottom line is that even Northampton receive a considerable amount of money more from central funding and all of the things you mention require more and more money season on season to compete. Survival in the Premiership brings with it more funding and survival in the Premiership is dependant on performance on the pitch.
When Northampton were relegated they had all those things in place they just looked at different ways to operate them.
LW in the past tried to run their own academy , but not being RFU funded, they found all the talent they discovered poached away, I think the point about the academy money is that whilst we contribute to the academy pot, we receive no benefit from it by the way of being allocated young talent from the ERDPP, it's not about asking for academy money it's about not being deducted money.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:01:08:21:44:21 by chappers.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
dragon82 (IP Logged)
08/01/2015 22:23
What I'm saying is that we could put that money into signing players but there's no guarantee they'll even work out. The club needs to have more vision than thinking it's purely about the 1st XV we can put on the pitch each week. We're all fans and love a big name signing, who doesn't? But unless we're rolling out Dan Carter or Ritchie McCaw on a short term basis (or whichever truly world class players you want to pick) we need to be looking at other solutions. Did James O'Connor significantly improve London Irish last season before swiftly moving on? Where's the legacy? Irish are exactly where they were before he signed. That's probably a decent example.

Like most people I too think the funding rules are unfair. I don't think it's right that promotion does not occur until June either. It does leave the newly promoted team at a massive disadvantage. Anyone can see that. If you really want to have a go in the Premiership you need to be able to make big signings at this time of year. Look at Bristol signing Tom Varndell yesterday. There's a lot of talk they're looking at Gavin Henson too. They're signing players now to play in the Premiership. That's the level of funding you need to have.

Obviously we do not have that sort of funding available hence why we recruited late and signed in the majority championship level players. We recruited them because we didn't know which division we'd be playing in and couldn't afford to gamble on big money players until promotion was assured. No that's not fair but it is the way it is.

So...rather than trying to throw money at a short term solution that has no guarantee of actually being successful (players) a better idea would be to invest in the infrastructure of the club to attract further investment from benefactors with deeper pockets. If our one or two backers were to stop funding is tomorrow what position would the club be in? It would be back to part time amateur rugby. I said in another post that London Welsh wouldn't be where they are without this backing. The benefactors should be thanked for their generous backing but their needs to be more of a plan. All the moneys invested in the playing squad.

You make the point that players will bring success which in turn will bring further funding. I guess my point is that unless for an astronomical amount of coin why would a player sign for us rather than a bigger club with a better infrastructure? All of the 'names' we have signed in the last few years have had question marks against them because that's where we are in the market.

To be blunt if we're serious about sticking round at this level we need to build what is a modern premiership club rather than a team that would fall apart once the funding from one or two individuals stops. That's what the RFU want to see. That's what would stop academy players from being poached (if we had one).

I get that we're not being given a fair chance I really do. We're 2m short per year. But there needs to be more of a plan than throwing money at players. If they were truly great players in their prime they wouldn't consider the club because we'd be competing against clubs that could offer the same money and a better infrastructure.

Of course this is very much a chicken and egg situation. But if we're to be viable there needs to be investment off the field as well as on it, and I believe that the off field investment and modernisation of the club has a much better chance of leading to success on it rather than the other way round.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Mark W-J (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 07:57
You've got no place on this board if you talk that much sense!

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
garrob66 (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 08:02
Does anyone know Terry Matthews number?!

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 08:28
Although the talk of academy funding is something of a red herring I think it is fair to point out that every academy gets young players it has developed 'poached' by other clubs. Worcester can point to a long list, as can a club like 'Quins, as can my own team of Bristol.

Equally people point to Exeter as a model of how a club can develop long term. Now it is true that Exeter had a long-term plan but for whatever reason it is largely overlooked that they had (and have) a very wealthy backer and benefited from two property deals that took place at the most opportune time. Can anyone point me to a Premiership side that isn't where it is because of the backing of one or two wealthy individuals? Even Leicester, so often lauded for living within their (considerable) means actually have very wealthy backers. There's a couple of clubs that I've never paid much attention to so I'm not particularly aware of their ownership structures but I doubt that there is one that actually doesn't have major financial backing from either one individual or a very small group.

And a medium to long term plan.

Forgive me for harping on this point but it is clearly the planning that LW has fallen down on. Yes, the central funding is inequitable (but I could make a case for saying that that the funding derives from the long-term efforts of a collective and that new entrants simply haven't made the same contribution to building that collective operation as longer term members and that it is only reasonable that you get out according to what you have put in. I'm not actually arguing that - just that it is possible to make a case). But that funding, on its own, is not the difference between one club's recruitment power and another's. LW is where it is because it has taken promotion without ever really planning for it. Get that bit right and the funding is less of an issue.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 08:28
If you want to invest in the infrastructure of LW how and where do you suggest that is done?

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Mark W-J (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 09:23
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
Although the talk of academy funding is something of a red herring I think it is fair to point out that every academy gets young players it has developed 'poached' by other clubs. Worcester can point to a long list, as can a club like 'Quins, as can my own team of Bristol.

True. But the difference is that we weren't in a position to poach players back from Quins or London Irish, whereas the 14 RFU-affiliated academies can compete with one another. We had players graduate from our academy who have played over 100 times in the Championship (Adam Kwasnicki, for example) but anyone who had the potential to play in at Premiership standard and above was always going to be attracted by the offer of a full-time academy contract with a fully-professional, RFU-backed set-up.

It's no different from what happens at senior level, with Premiership clubs signing up the best Championship players - the Championship clubs generally can't compete in the marketplace and make offers to attract Premiership players to step down a level.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Leipziger (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 13:28
Crazy situation, especially with Northampton getting less than other established Premiership teams. The logical thing to do would be to do what the football Premier League does, and give everyone (including promoted teams) the same amount of money at the start of the season and then award extra prize money based on finishing positions and playoff success. Logic and rugby administration rarely go together though.

Anyway, hope to see plenty of you guys up at Kingston Park on Sunday, safe journey!

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
trickybroon (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 14:01
In France don't the team coming up actually receive more money in the first year?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:01:09:17:43:52 by trickybroon.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Amazing! (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 16:51
Money is only useful if you have good enough management to sensibly use it.

So I wouldn't bother.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
dragon82 (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 18:40
Quote:
peterh64
If you want to invest in the infrastructure of LW how and where do you suggest that is done?

Hi Peter,

I just think it's time that the board started to produce some sort of long term plan if they truly wish for the club to compete at this level in the future, either with them in charge or by investing the money in the club itself to make it a more attractive proposition for new investment. After all at a time where clubs are suggesting that others are in breach of the salary cap we'd still be miles behind what other teams are paying even if we used our extra 2m on salary.

However to say we'd spend that 2m on new players sounds like a bit of a throwaway line. You actually have to be able to recruit the players who would be on those salaries and as has already been mentioned they'd be long gone by the time we were promoted anyway unless we were massively overpaying average players!

To answer your question on how I'd spend the money if we had it I'd look at modernising the club a bit. I mentioned in another thread about how the game is increasingly about analytics and off field staff. That would be where I would invest, you could get a lot of staff and technology for a 200k spend i.e. What is quoted as one players worth here.

It's a daunting task but one which needs to be started from the bottom up. As Chappers said when I mentioned Northampton they had that infrastructure in place already. That I concede but there's a saying 'The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second best time is today.' The club needs to be modernised if we have aspirations to play at this level.

I'd start with the training base. I'm not saying that we'd definitely need to move from ODP but they'd need to be investment in the offices, changing rooms, players gym etc so that when prospective new signings have a look at the place they realise we are serious. I play very low level amateur sport and I play at better facilities. It's sad but true. I'm amazed when I read quotes about the back to basics feel about the place and especially in the summer when one of the players was talking about how a speech was given to the players explaining that we have the soul of an amateur club. We need to be moving away from that! Invest in the players facilities at ODP so that it is a place that prospective new signings want to come to work every day! Then we may find ourselves attracting a better quality of player more consistently.

I mentioned off field staff. We're still too short. Money needs to be spent on analysts, physios & s&c staff to bring us up to speed. About a month prior to the season we had one physio! That's a big ask when you have 40 odd players wanting a rub! As for the facility they work in, see above.

We need an academy. I'm not going to pretend I know which of the 14 clubs with an academy cover which area but with Wasps moving up to Coventry surely we should be given the chance to cover some of the areas around Oxfordshire and immediately beyond. If there's to be a future as a club, not just a first XV there needs to be an academy.

Finally we should be looking towards having our own stadium. Obviously you're not going to get one for 2m but further down the line. If we are to become commercially viable (and yes a decent investment opportunity) we would need our own place that can generate money for the club 365 days of the year (minus public holidays!). The board have done a good job in getting some money from the Kassam from match day revenue. But do we really think the deal they got was that much better than the one Wasps have just left behind at Adams Park? Profitable clubs all play in the Aviva Premiership play in their own stadium. Boxes become meeting rooms on non match days, corporate areas become conference facilities and if you're really smart a 4G pitch can be rented out 7 days a week. There's a reason Cardiff invested 250k in their pitch and it wasn't just postponements. As an investment it pays for itself. The Witney plan may not have been popular due to location but the idea itself was the way forward.

So a few ideas there, none of them particularly outlandish to be honest.
Some of you may disagree but at the very least we should be looking at the blueprints of clubs like Northampton, Leicester and yes Exeter. We may be miles behind them but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't aspire to join them. The game is constantly evolving and we need to be moving forwards just to keep up.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
chappers (IP Logged)
09/01/2015 20:07
Some very good points there and in particular the amateur feel of the club, whilst that might be very attractive to the fans, the problem is it doesn't attract talent. I know for a fact that this season we missed out on signing at least one player, not due to our position in the table or what was going on, on the pitch, but due to our off pitch facilities.

However as was pointed out there is very much an element of chicken/egg, if you invest 2M in infrastructure, how sustainable is that infrastructure in the championship, when that money is no longer there.
The bottom line is the whole game is woefully underfunded, both from within the game and from external investment. The less established clubs all rely on benefactors and it is always going to be difficult to attract further significant investment.

Nothing wrong with developing talent and selling it on, many football clubs survive very well doing just that , however rugby hasn't yet developed that way and transfer fees are still very much the exception, with players even themselves , buying their way out of contracts to move on.

Dragon82 mentions lots of things that would probably be on the clubs wish list but all of this takes money and increasingly larger amounts to stay competitive.
There are rewards to be won for staying in the prem, both currently and via a successful legal challenge, but their basis is based on staying in the prem and so some risk needs to be taken by way of being competitive on the pitch. We all point at Exeter but I wonder what might have happened there if they had failed to stay up and how long they could have sustained their "premiership set-up" in the championship, even they took on board an element of risk and even Rob Baxter admits they are not completely out of the woods.
Admittedly we took a chance when the opportunity arose and are working within that, but with very few exceptions most clubs would surely do the same.

Obviously I have nowhere near the inside track as to who may be available at this point in the season and I also doubt whether even with 2M, given our current predicament, we could attract the sort of players needed to survive, especially against established squads already up to the salary cap.
But where I do wholeheartedly agree with Bleddyn is we shouldn't give up the fight both on and off the pitch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:01:09:20:36:00 by chappers.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
10/01/2015 13:42
Quote:
dragon82
Quote:
peterh64
If you want to invest in the infrastructure of LW how and where do you suggest that is done?

Hi Peter,

I just think it's time that the board started to produce some sort of long term plan if they truly wish for the club to compete at this level in the future, either with them in charge or by investing the money in the club itself to make it a more attractive proposition for new investment. After all at a time where clubs are suggesting that others are in breach of the salary cap we'd still be miles behind what other teams are paying even if we used our extra 2m on salary.

However to say we'd spend that 2m on new players sounds like a bit of a throwaway line. You actually have to be able to recruit the players who would be on those salaries and as has already been mentioned they'd be long gone by the time we were promoted anyway unless we were massively overpaying average players!

To answer your question on how I'd spend the money if we had it I'd look at modernising the club a bit. I mentioned in another thread about how the game is increasingly about analytics and off field staff. That would be where I would invest, you could get a lot of staff and technology for a 200k spend i.e. What is quoted as one players worth here.

It's a daunting task but one which needs to be started from the bottom up. As Chappers said when I mentioned Northampton they had that infrastructure in place already. That I concede but there's a saying 'The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second best time is today.' The club needs to be modernised if we have aspirations to play at this level.

I'd start with the training base. I'm not saying that we'd definitely need to move from ODP but they'd need to be investment in the offices, changing rooms, players gym etc so that when prospective new signings have a look at the place they realise we are serious. I play very low level amateur sport and I play at better facilities. It's sad but true. I'm amazed when I read quotes about the back to basics feel about the place and especially in the summer when one of the players was talking about how a speech was given to the players explaining that we have the soul of an amateur club. We need to be moving away from that! Invest in the players facilities at ODP so that it is a place that prospective new signings want to come to work every day! Then we may find ourselves attracting a better quality of player more consistently.

I mentioned off field staff. We're still too short. Money needs to be spent on analysts, physios & s&c staff to bring us up to speed. About a month prior to the season we had one physio! That's a big ask when you have 40 odd players wanting a rub! As for the facility they work in, see above.

We need an academy. I'm not going to pretend I know which of the 14 clubs with an academy cover which area but with Wasps moving up to Coventry surely we should be given the chance to cover some of the areas around Oxfordshire and immediately beyond. If there's to be a future as a club, not just a first XV there needs to be an academy.

Finally we should be looking towards having our own stadium. Obviously you're not going to get one for 2m but further down the line. If we are to become commercially viable (and yes a decent investment opportunity) we would need our own place that can generate money for the club 365 days of the year (minus public holidays!). The board have done a good job in getting some money from the Kassam from match day revenue. But do we really think the deal they got was that much better than the one Wasps have just left behind at Adams Park? Profitable clubs all play in the Aviva Premiership play in their own stadium. Boxes become meeting rooms on non match days, corporate areas become conference facilities and if you're really smart a 4G pitch can be rented out 7 days a week. There's a reason Cardiff invested 250k in their pitch and it wasn't just postponements. As an investment it pays for itself. The Witney plan may not have been popular due to location but the idea itself was the way forward.

So a few ideas there, none of them particularly outlandish to be honest.
Some of you may disagree but at the very least we should be looking at the blueprints of clubs like Northampton, Leicester and yes Exeter. We may be miles behind them but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't aspire to join them. The game is constantly evolving and we need to be moving forwards just to keep up.

Yes all that is great but where?-Witney? maybe near the Kidlington parka nd ride or back to ODP
that is the crucial decision

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
10/01/2015 14:16
Whilst all the posts, on this learned platform ,about what should be (or should have been ) done are very sensible , we are where we are ,trying to penetrate the lower regions of The Premiership , the clock can't be turned back. It may hurt but there is no gain without pain .

Better to try and fail than not to try at all. ...... Cue.. LW should have planned , stayed in The Championship not sacked the ball boy who gave the balls to the hooker .....etc etc etc.......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:01:10:15:13:45 by Y Drenewydd.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
thorpebayexile (IP Logged)
10/01/2015 17:18
I think a lot of what will happen is outside your hands. My guess is that this talk of a plan B would be looking at the necessity of a move back to ODP after relegation.

If you get relegated I imagine that your squad will be impacted more than it was after the last relegation and you will be forced to lose a fair chunk of the people drafted in over the summer.

With Bristol or worcester still in the Championship then any 'plan b' will be looking at how to be financially sustainable for a few years in the championship without a parachute payment each year.

My guess is that means a fairly quick return to ODP to try to build up again. This isn't an attempt to re-open a debate - it's just what I would put money on being considered in the plan b (if I were a betting man)

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
10/01/2015 17:28
^^^^^^^^^ ?

....One year left of three year contract at The Kassam

....last time we were relegated most of the squad was released.

....we are looking like a v good Championship side at the moment so most of our players may probably stay ,as where else would they go?

.... As well as a parachute payment there may be something from the PRL funding debate that is goin on .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:01:10:17:29:39 by Y Drenewydd.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
10/01/2015 18:55
Quote:
thorpebayexile
I think a lot of what will happen is outside your hands. My guess is that this talk of a plan B would be looking at the necessity of a move back to ODP after relegation.
If you get relegated I imagine that your squad will be impacted more than it was after the last relegation and you will be forced to lose a fair chunk of the people drafted in over the summer.

With Bristol or worcester still in the Championship then any 'plan b' will be looking at how to be financially sustainable for a few years in the championship without a parachute payment each year.

My guess is that means a fairly quick return to ODP to try to build up again. This isn't an attempt to re-open a debate - it's just what I would put money on being considered in the plan b (if I were a betting man)

It would be nice if the people pontificating on LW re number of new players, where we will be next year had done just a smidgen of research

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
dragon82 (IP Logged)
11/01/2015 13:00
Quote:
Y Drenewydd
Whilst all the posts, on this learned platform ,about what should be (or should have been ) done are very sensible , we are where we are ,trying to penetrate the lower regions of The Premiership , the clock can't be turned back. It may hurt but there is no gain without pain .
Better to try and fail than not to try at all. ...... Cue.. LW should have planned , stayed in The Championship not sacked the ball boy who gave the balls to the hooker .....etc etc etc.......

Absolutely. The whole point of sport is that you should aspire to play at the highest level possible. It's been a tough season to put it mildly but I still look forward to all of our games and hope that we can upset the odds.

I've been critical of the fact that all of our money is tied up in salary without any real investment in our facilities. However to be clear the guys who are funding the club write massive cheques every month and for that they should be (and are) commended. With the situation we are in we obviously need a wealthier backer with a more modern understanding of the game. That's the cold business of professional sport right there.

Regarding my comments about us owning our stadium, well I almost didn't include them to be honest. However I felt they were relevant because that's what we should be building towards. Without new investment it's beyond our current board anyway. But the other things I mentioned such as sports science, upgrading the facilities, investment in staff etc. those are things that should have been addressed already and when compared to the amount we pay in salary are not beyond our means.

Anyway I'm really looking forward to today's game and hope the boys get a result. However lets not forget that Newcastle are playing well themselves getting a BP at Northampton and scoring 30 points! If we were to win up there it would be a massive achievement. COYW!

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
thorpebayexile (IP Logged)
11/01/2015 23:46
Quote:
peterh64
Quote:
thorpebayexile
I think a lot of what will happen is outside your hands. My guess is that this talk of a plan B would be looking at the necessity of a move back to ODP after relegation.
If you get relegated I imagine that your squad will be impacted more than it was after the last relegation and you will be forced to lose a fair chunk of the people drafted in over the summer.

With Bristol or worcester still in the Championship then any 'plan b' will be looking at how to be financially sustainable for a few years in the championship without a parachute payment each year.

My guess is that means a fairly quick return to ODP to try to build up again. This isn't an attempt to re-open a debate - it's just what I would put money on being considered in the plan b (if I were a betting man)

It would be nice if the people pontificating on LW re number of new players, where we will be next year had done just a smidgen of research

Hmm... we'll see. My money is on your 'plan b' being a re-trenchment back to ODP looking to be able to balance the books in the Championship. Time will tell.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
warwick5763 (IP Logged)
12/01/2015 10:55
Talk at London Scottish of new stadium, a 50/50 split would suit us both.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Ellie Crisell (IP Logged)
12/01/2015 13:04
Quote:
warwick5763
Talk at London Scottish of new stadium, a 50/50 split would suit us both.

Where would this new stadium be located?

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
12/01/2015 13:31
If Firoz Kassam lives up to his reputation, the contract LW have signed would be pretty hard to break

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Newest Sir Benfro (IP Logged)
12/01/2015 14:09
Can we even consider Championship games at ODP without floodlights?

Remember we would have TV commitments that need decent illumination even during the winter afternoons and who is to say there would not be a requirement for Friday evening games.

I think the reality is that ODP is out of the question for all but amateur rugby now. Fancy the abuse we would get being promotion contenders playing on a dark afternoon when the ref decides to abandon the game because he cant see the lines !!

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Mark W-J (IP Logged)
12/01/2015 15:06
Quote:
Ellie Crisell
Quote:
warwick5763
Talk at London Scottish of new stadium, a 50/50 split would suit us both.

Where would this new stadium be located?

There's been a lot of talk in the last couple of years about Scottish redeveloping the RAG - turning the pitch around 90 degrees, and dropping the level of the playing surface by about 10 feet so that the stands wouldn't be too obtrusive. I even heard from one committee member that Richmond were looking to move into ODP when our lease expired so that we could be become co-tenants with Scottish - he was fairly sure that it was at a very advanced stage, although this was a good 12-18 months ago, and I haven't heard a whisper from our side either before or since.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
12/01/2015 15:46
Richmond/Scottish. Stadium developement.......not LW ...

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
oxfordlocal (IP Logged)
12/01/2015 16:29
Reading the report it doesn't meet premiership league standards as it will only hold 4000

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Ellie Crisell (IP Logged)
13/01/2015 13:41
That's Crown Land again, by the looks of the article.
Good luck with that. We couldn't even touch our training pitch at ODP.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Mark W-J (IP Logged)
13/01/2015 14:38
This is what I received in November 2013:

"I have it on good authority that the RAA are submitting planning permission to Richmond Council in January (2014) for the development of a new stadium at the RAG. It is planned to build a brand new stand with a capacity to hold 2500/3000 seats with the remainder of the new ground to be terracing which could also be converted to seating if the club was promoted. All aspects of the ground will be MSC compliant and this has been confirmed with the RFU/PRL. The new ground will be at 90 degrees to the existing ground with the main stand along the perimeter of the Mid Surrey Golf Course. It will have a 4G artificial pitch and if the rumours are correct it will also have a hotel either built into the ground or beside it. The new ground if everything goes to plan will be in place for the 2015/16 season. It will be a community style stadium which Richmond Council will have use off as a sports facility within the Borough. Richmond Council are backing the plans."

Turns out that the bit I referred to above about Richmond moving into ODP was part of a separate discussion, not from anyone associated with Richmond or Scottish.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Beef (IP Logged)
13/01/2015 17:26
I think the main problem here is that when you were first in the position to be promoted, it took you (players/supporters/staff/AND owners) completely by suprise. You were not ready for promotion. You had no infrastructure in place (didn't even have a premiership standard ground).
The aspirations (ego's?) of a few, saw the opportunity to wrestle with the big boys, but had nothing to back it up with.

I have absolutely no problem with teams coming up from the Championship - but get yourselves on a sound financial footing first! Others have tried to do it, with a lot more infrastructure than yourselves and nearly went out of existance (Bedford).

My fear for yourselves is that after a year or two, your owners will have a hissy fit and pull the plug

http://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/991152054167.gif

Terrace 'B' next to Mav, Shaddo, AB, Jeremy and Spud.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
paddytaf (IP Logged)
14/01/2015 19:05
With regards to your views on us not having any infrastruture, together with us not being prepaired or even expecting promotion i feel are 100% part of the reason/reasons for us being in the predicament we now find ourselves in. EXETER'S climb to the summit was structured, planned, and overall built on SOILID FOUNDATIONS. LONDON WELSH'S more like QUICK SAND

There will be MANY of my friends and ardent fellow supporters who will 100% disagree with my comments. I as much or even more than most want my beloved LONDON WELSH at the TOP TABLE, we can and have achieved this GOAL, but we can only sustain that position through, not just pouring 1000's of pounds into the playing squad, but by being first and foremost focused on what we want/need to do.

If i had the resources, (sadly i haven't) by resources i mean obviosly money lots of money, i would never ever take LONDON WELSH to a ground where we LONDON WELSH gain little or nothing through the day's proceedings. I don't know what the answer is, but surely it is not being at a football ground haemorrhaging 1000's & 1000's of pounds every year since we have been in the Premiership. I genuinely

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
chappers (IP Logged)
20/01/2015 17:40

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
oxford wizard (IP Logged)
20/01/2015 18:51
Thank you RW and Stephen Cole.Everthing down in black and white. Its a shame this couldn't be emailed to every rugby fan out there to explain the situation we're in,rather than incorrect infomation being passed out on fans forums, over pints of beer and by parts of the media.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Tiny George (IP Logged)
20/01/2015 21:25
The Rugby World piece is, in my opinion, a carefully spun article to "support" whatever "claim" your Chairman is going to make next.

The article fails to address many other issues such a sustainable business model, crowds, or infrastructure to name but 3.

For Stephen Cole to claim that all your woes are the fault of unequal funding is, in my opinion, deluded and potentially dangerous for your Club's longevity.

My own Club, Bristol, are gearing up for promotion, if not this year, then next year, or the year after, but our marketing team are doing a fabulous job getting large crowds and we're building a squad with a mix of home grown Academy players and experienced heads.

Our owner has stated publicly that he's in it for the long haul and that not getting promotion this season would not be a disaster.

In other words we are preparing for promotion, this is something that your owners seem to have failed to do thus far.

There I've said it.

For the record I do hope you can salvage something from this season and not go into freefall as I have many happy memories of watching London Welsh, plus a couple of unhappy ones from last season.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
chappers (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 06:58
All very valid points and great when getting promoted or not makes virtually no difference to your finances. I would almost go so far as to say that Bristol are one of the few clubs that could indefinitely sustain a premiership set-up in the championship.
You have an owner that could plough more money into the club, than all of the other premiership sides put together and still not even notice it.
Just to put things into context, the money Steve Lansdown makes in a year is far in excess of Bruce Craig at Baths total fortune.
People point at LW and go on about our signings this season, if you think that when Bristol get promoted, they wont be going out buying new players then you are seriously deluded, it wouldn't surprise me to see Bristol spending right up to the salary cap when that happens. And why? because survival in the premiership is so important , as that is where the money is.
LW have had to make a decision, spend on the pitch and try and stay up or languish in the champ virtually un funded.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
oxford wizard (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 07:36
Tiny George.Its amazing what you can do with money,as your proving.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:01:21:07:43:54 by oxford wizard.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
EverOptimistic (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 09:25
IMO, until the LW management begin to take some responsibility for their predicament, their situation wont change.

There is, or was, sympathy regarding the funding issue amongst many clubs. But to constantly blame all LW ills on funding, with not even a nod towards lack of planning, infrastructure, support base etc, rapidly dilutes the sympathy.

The majority of the arguments in this piece just don't add up to scrutiny. And absolutely no mention of 2 parachute payments which effectively doubles LW funding for each of the 2 premiership seasons.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Big Dave (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 09:45
I have generally been a supporter of a more equitable funding arrangement. However, what has angered me about London Welsh's current position is the recent conversion to opposition to the play offs. I support the same club as EO and TG and of course we've been on the rough end of this particularly ludicrous arrangment three times now, so no doubt my views will be easily dismissed by some, although I know there are some intelligent and reasoned contributors here, who debate maturely even when views are opposed.

My point is this. London Welsh are now arguing against the play offs as a means to determine promotion from the Championship. Even if Bristol had got through the play offs I would argue against them.

The point is that that London Welsh voted for the play offs. At their introduction 10 championship clubs voted for play offs and two - Bristol and Exeter - voted against. In effect 10 clubs who thought they wouldn't get a shot at promotion voted for a system that gave them a greater chance of that.

Let's be clear, London Welsh have changed their mind on play offs. London Welsh have performed a complete volte face on this now. I wonder why? Do they think that with their parachute payment and perhaps other income they would be in a more advantageous position than other Championship clubs, and now do not want to cede that advantage through play offs?

I'm afraid that's exactly what it seems like. As their situation changes, so do LW's positions and their perception of what is best for the good of the game. It hardly makes one sympathetic to the case they are trying to make.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Newest Sir Benfro (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 10:00
We have not changed oup position that the play offs ending on the 4th June do nothing to assist the promoted club prepare in good order for life in the AP.

You really should pay attention !

Bristol may have to reduce their wage bill if they get promoted I suspect if their current spending spree continues !!

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Big Dave (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 10:06
Are you being serious?

LW have changed their position. LW indicated support for something by voting for it. Now a club director says the club want that thing changed.

That's called changing a position.

Or, having your cake and eating it.

Or a word beginning with 'h' which rhymes with 'democracy'.

But I would rather not use such a word.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Mark W-J (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 10:24
I have to say that I agree with much of what our friends from Bristol are saying. We didn't prepare the first time around, when winning the play-offs took everyone by surprise, and while we specifically targeted promotion on the field last season, off the field we don't appear to have moved on very much. Yes, the infrastructure in Oxford is infinitely better, but is it infinitely more effective? Answers on a postcard... And I've said before that while people may have sympathy with our arguments about inequality of funding, they're starting to lose their impact - it now just translates as 'London Welsh are whingeing again...'

The one thing I do have an issue with is this bit:

Quote:
Big Dave
The point is that that London Welsh voted for the play offs. At their introduction 10 championship clubs voted for play offs and two - Bristol and Exeter - voted against. In effect 10 clubs who thought they wouldn't get a shot at promotion voted for a system that gave them a greater chance of that.

I can find no reference to this 10-2 split anywhere on the internet, although I'm assured that it was discussed on the Bristol board during the first Championship season. What I'm particularly perplexed by is the fact that Bristol were a Premiership club at the time when the discussions for the formation of the Championship were taking place, so they wouldn't have been involved in the debate around the structure of the following season - and therefore wouldn't have had a vote. Just saying...

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Big Dave (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 10:32
I'll go digging for that, Mark, I am pretty sure it was a quote by Chris Booy the Bristol chairman which was reported in the press.

But before I dig for that, I'd better do some work.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 10:44
Quote:
Big Dave
Are you being serious?
LW have changed their position. LW indicated support for something by voting for it. Now a club director says the club want that thing changed.

That's called changing a position.

Or, having your cake and eating it.

Or a word beginning with 'h' which rhymes with 'democracy'.

But I would rather not use such a word.

Situations change, positions change, just like they do in the real world.

I suppose this could be translated into team tactics in the Top of Leauge vs Play Off's debate etc, etc

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Big Dave (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 10:44
[news.bbc.co.uk]

Well, as a start you can see at least how Bristol would have been party to the decision, and, given their consistent public position (and that the same people are in charge) you can assume what that position would be - and now I really need to do some work.

Also, PRL money into the championship for 8 years, which I assume means that the end of next season is the point at which we might see big change.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Big Dave (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 11:06
Quote:
Y Drenewydd
Quote:
Big Dave
Are you being serious?
LW have changed their position. LW indicated support for something by voting for it. Now a club director says the club want that thing changed.

That's called changing a position.

Or, having your cake and eating it.

Or a word beginning with 'h' which rhymes with 'democracy'.

But I would rather not use such a word.

Situations change, positions change, just like they do in the real world.

I suppose this could be translated into team tactics in the Top of Leauge vs Play Off's debate etc, etc

It's a question of the principle of choosing the best team to go up, not a question of the tactics adopted. If you are going to advance positions on the basis of "fairness" and "natural justice" then you'd be advised to be consistent in the application of those principles.

And now I REALLY need to do some work.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 11:26
"We would have gone all-out to win the league whereas we were just aiming to make the play-offs. - Stephen Cole

Should the relegated club take legal action because LW threw some games thus handing points to their rivals?

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Mark W-J (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 11:49
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
"We would have gone all-out to win the league whereas we were just aiming to make the play-offs. - Stephen Cole
Should the relegated club take legal action because LW threw some games thus handing points to their rivals?

I think you're the only follower of the top two divisions who refuses to acknowledge the fact that the play-offs offer a chance to approach the season differently from a straightforward first-past-the-post league structure. It's a shame, because many of the points you make are relevant but this refusal to acknowledge what is obvious to everyone else detracts from your arguments - especially as Bristol's season-long approach of turning down easy three points in favour of pushing for tries is the clearest example of how a team can take risks when they don't have to win every game.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Standardprocedure (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 12:48
Bristol's season-long approach of turning down easy three points in favour of pushing for tries is the clearest example of how a team can take risks when they don't have to win every game.

Actually, our season long approach of going for the corner was a calculated decision based on the fact that the rewards for so doing are higher, but don't let facts get in the way of believing the bullshhhh that Dewi Morris et al kept peddling last season

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Mark W-J (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 13:02
I don't need Dewi Morris - I'm capable of having my own opinion, thanks.

It may have been a calculated decision, but take the game at the Kassam in November as an example. You probably had two thirds of possession and territory, but whenever you were awarded a penalty in the shadow of the posts you kicked for the corner rather than take the easy three points. Now, if it had been first past the posts, and with Bristol having already lost to Pirates on the opening weekend, you wouldn't have wanted to run the risk of Welsh opening up a 6-8 point gap at the top of the table, would you? I can't believe that you lot would have been very happy with Robinson and Holley if your team had thrown that game away and you dropped further behind in the chase for the all-important top spot. As it turns out, the high risk produced the rewards, and you finished top of the table regardless - but it was the safety net of the top four finish that allowed you to take those risks.

Edit - just found this quote on the Bristol board:

Quote:
Graham_U
I suspect if the league winner went up, we would have played different tactics last year too, i.e., taken the points when available. So probably won the game at Oxford in which we turned down so many penalties to kick for the corner when our hookers could not hit the proverbial barn door.

I've always like Graham U!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:01:21:13:19:53 by Mark W-J.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 13:43
But Mark, I don't refuse to acknowledge the point. I've asked people to come up with actual evidence that the play-offs make teams play in a different way and no one can come up with anything, except that a LW director now says that you didn't even attempt to win the league. You've tried harder than most and even you have to admit it hard to see anything major. I admit I was being slightly provocative in the way I made my comment but the attitude that a club didn't even want to win the league exposes yet another fault with the play-off system in that it actually affects teams struggling for every point who may or may not come up against a side that actually cares about the result. Yet another distortion of a sporting contest, just as the additional fixture you refer to was.

And SP is perfectly right, the strategy of going for touch rather than the points was an evidence-based approach (and I've seen some of the data - it's reasonably convincing but some of the statistics behind it is a bit crude) that saw Bristol top the league. As you point out the approach paid off. The play-offs were not a factor. The performance in that game at the Kassam was down to incompetence on the part of the players who stuck to a prearranged plan despite the obvious fact that neither of our hookers could have hit a cow's @#$%& with a banjo that day.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Amazing! (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 15:33
Quote:
Mark W-J
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
"We would have gone all-out to win the league whereas we were just aiming to make the play-offs. - Stephen Cole
Should the relegated club take legal action because LW threw some games thus handing points to their rivals?

I think you're the only follower of the top two divisions who refuses to acknowledge the fact that the play-offs offer a chance to approach the season differently from a straightforward first-past-the-post league structure. It's a shame, because many of the points you make are relevant but this refusal to acknowledge what is obvious to everyone else detracts from your arguments - especially as Bristol's season-long approach of turning down easy three points in favour of pushing for tries is the clearest example of how a team can take risks when they don't have to win every game.

What a pompous post. As always.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Mark W-J (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 16:35
I like to think that Bristol's approach is the actual proof you're looking for, for the reasons outlined above. But if you're happy to say that you'd have happily accepted finishing second in a traditional first-past-the-post season because you consistently turned down kickable penalties in favour of a high-risk, high-reward strategy then I'll say no more about it.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 17:17
No, I'd be deeply unhappy if that approach saw us finish second in a first-past-the-post system. But we didn't, we finished second in a knock-out completion instead. And for whatever reason n, not playing that way either.

None of which is anything to do with LW's struggle with iniquitous funding of course.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Tiny George (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 17:29
In answer to the couple of comments my last post here raised:

I know for a fact that Bristol will sign more players both before the play offs and if we do get promoted, afterwards.

I've heard from a very reliable source that we've signed another Prem player for next season. I can't say who but it's someone not previously alluded to on our own message board.

Secondly, we haven't got to where we are simply by signing new players, several of our starting 15 came through our Academy, in other words we have been building towards this season.

This I believe is the fundamental differnce between our 2 clubs.

Rightly or wrongly the perception that I and I supsect many non LW supporters is that LW have been focussing on the wrong areas and failing to get the backroom stuff and infrastructure right.

I know Wasps have been in the Prem for longer but their move to Coventry really makes your move to Oxford pale into insignificance.

I genuinely fear for your Club, to me, your Directors have gambled big and failed.

TG

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
chappers (IP Logged)
21/01/2015 22:33
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
except that a LW director now says that you didn't even attempt to win the league.

It's not a case of "now says" at all, I was at the pre season launch at ODP and Justin Burnell said that his tactics were going to be to try and win every game and hopefully finish in the top 4 and then see where that left us at the end of the season.
Both he and Bleddyn Phillips also stated that the ultimate aim was promotion.
No one said anything about throwing games or aiming for second etc, but Justin did also at the time say he was going to use a heavy squad rotation, particularly in the forwards to have as many players "in the loop" so to speak, for the later part of the season. Something he did it seemed regardless of the opposition, would he have done that in a first past the post league I suspect not, I suspect he would have played what he considered his best XV on more occasions and certainly in a much more targeted way

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
22/01/2015 08:53
I'm not actually terribly concerned about the tactics teams adopt under the current promotion regime, although as I said above it hadn't occurred to me that a policy of not going all out actually has a detrimental effect on the competition as a whole (particularly those struggling for every point in a relegation battle).

But back to funding, just to make it clear I completely agree that the current funding system is iniquitous and disadvantages a newly promoted side. I understand why we have ended up with the current system and could even make a (weak) case for what it should operate in the way it does. But that isn't what I actually think on the subject. I can see the case for a system like the French have in which the promoted club receives more funding. With the caveat that I don't follow domestic French rugby so I don't know if that system actually works in terms of enabling teams to compete at a higher level (in other words do they get promoted and then promptly relegated either the first season or the next. I should have a look).

However, I think the funding issue is bound up with the system used for promotion (not the tactical approaches used I hasten to add). A first past the post system recognises and rewards the ability to consistently perform at a higher level across the course of the season and I would argue better fits a club for sustaining a higher level of play on being promoted and having increased potential to survive at that level. The current play-off system creates a situation where a club does not have to sustain a high level of performance across the season but just has to do enough to qualify and then hit its top performance in one or two games. So you can end up with a club that finishes fourth and had no real expectation or, importantly, plan for promotion where it then lacks both playing strength, support structures and equitable (or superior) funding.

So you have to change both funding and promotion/relegation systems and you can then see the rationale for bringing both the top tiers under the same umbrella to control that system and attempt to come up with a better centralised funding operation. Something along the line of the French system does look a possible solution.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
22/01/2015 09:00
Quote:
Big Dave
Quote:
Y Drenewydd
Quote:
Big Dave
Are you being serious?
LW have changed their position. LW indicated support for something by voting for it. Now a club director says the club want that thing changed.

That's called changing a position.

Or, having your cake and eating it.

Or a word beginning with 'h' which rhymes with 'democracy'.

But I would rather not use such a word.

Situations change, positions change, just like they do in the real world.

I suppose this could be translated into team tactics in the Top of Leauge vs Play Off's debate etc, etc

It's a question of the principle of choosing the best team to go up, not a question of the tactics adopted. If you are going to advance positions on the basis of "fairness" and "natural justice" then you'd be advised to be consistent in the application of those principles.

And now I REALLY need to do some work.

I never mentioned fairness or natural justice those are your words.


Gray ..... Sounds like a plan... Is there any relegation /promotion in the 2nd/3rd French tiers.?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:01:22:09:09:17 by Y Drenewydd.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
22/01/2015 10:03
Yes, there is

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
22/01/2015 10:31
So ..... It looks like the LW drive for change re funding and promotion/relegation criteria season end / timing etc is a common cause now. Let's hope the pressure being applied to the PRL/RFU , by whatever means produces a result that is more equitable than the present situation.

Watching games in The Championship and The Premiership is usually(unless your team is getting thrashed !) a pleasurable experience . Let's hope any changes will make the transition up or down between the two less painful than it has been in recent years.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
22/01/2015 11:51
I had a very quick look at the Top 14 and actually it doesn't look that brilliant for promoted clubs overall, certainly before last season. Crudely, two clubs go up and one of them comes straight back down. What would be interesting to know is if the one that stays up is the one that wins the league and the one that is relegated is the one that comes through via the play-off. But I don't have that info. Although I do know this season La Rochelle did get promoted via the play-off and currently sit proudly at the bottom of the T14 table. Two places behind the club that topped the D2.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
chappers (IP Logged)
22/01/2015 19:11
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
I'm not actually terribly concerned about the tactics teams adopt under the current promotion regime, although as I said above it hadn't occurred to me that a policy of not going all out actually has a detrimental effect on the competition as a whole (particularly those struggling for every point in a relegation battle).

It' not a case of not going all out at all, I don't think any team seeking promotion whether through the play offs or as of right, are not going to try and win all their matches that would be a very risky strategy. In "the" season two teams adopted two different styles of play. Bristol played fast and loose and scored loads of trys , but also conceded a lot of points, whereas LW played a steadier game. I think that is the risky strategy that Mark alludes too and to be fair Bristol did concede quite a lot of points in the last quarter of a lot of games but held on whereas LW built a lead and consolidated their position more often than not.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
23/01/2015 08:30
I'm not going to go on about the 'different' tactics for the league. The fact is I don't really think there is any real difference between how anyone actually plays under the current play-off system. The fact is, if you strip out bonus points and the points from the ridiculous extra fixture, Bristol won the league and LW won the play-offs. And that's it.

Now, if you really want to see unequal funding have a read of this.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
23/01/2015 10:35
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
I'm not going to go on about the 'different' tactics for the league. The fact is I don't really think there is any real difference between how anyone actually plays under the current play-off system. The fact is, if you strip out bonus points and the points from the ridiculous extra fixture, Bristol won the league and LW won the play-offs. And that's it.
Now, if you really want to see unequal funding have a read of this.


so if you strip out the league game we lost to Bristol , London Welsh won the league, I take it we can choose a game to strip out?

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
23/01/2015 12:07
Dear Lord, you try to be reasonable and then you get an obtuse response like this. On this board and others people were trying to make a case that Bristol only won the league because of bonus points (like that was unfair or unreasonable). All I'm saying is that if you exclude winning and losing bonus points it's only reasonable to exclude points from the extra fixture that meant we didn't play the same sides the same number of times (you do remember that don't you?). We played Pirates three times and you had Bedford if I recall correctly. Take that out and we still topped the league. Or keep them all in. Still lost the play-offs though.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
23/01/2015 14:02
only trying to respond in a similar vein to your ridiculous post

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
chappers (IP Logged)
23/01/2015 21:46
Quote:
peterh64
only trying to respond in a similar vein to your ridiculous post
Agree! Tell me GL are you trying to tell me you didn't try to win the first game because it was ridiculous and that because you didn't and we did that it should be discounted , by way of proving your point that Bristol were the best team. The bottom line is that there was nothing to split the two teams apart from the play-offs and they could have gone either way, in reality.
My point is that there is no way that Bristol could demonstrably have been said to be the better team.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
24/01/2015 08:54
Are you both on some sort of medication?

Where have I said Bristol were the 'better' or 'best' team? Where did I say take out the game we lost to you? Try reading what is actually said rather than what you think was said.

Said louder for those in the cheap seats at the back. It has been claimed by some that Bristol only won (and implied that this was in some unstated fashion 'wrong') the league because of bonus points. I'm saying that if you take bonus points out for both sides and you take at the points from the extra game (so that you are comparing like with like) then Bristol still topped the league. Clear?

I wasn't trying to claim better or best and I'm perfectly clear we lost the play-offs. I think chappers is far too generous in that the first leg clearly was not going to go either way because Bristol were useless.

You try to engage in a reasoned debate about funding and this is what happens. Sigh.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
24/01/2015 14:40
It would be ok if your argument wasn't so ridiculous -I understand what you have written and it doesn't stop it from being completely ridiculous

So try and have a reasoned argument over funding, stick to the subject and try not to put into the equation fantasy

so far you have accused me of being obtuse and on some sort of medication, why can't you just write posts that avoid insults?

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
25/01/2015 09:01
Quote:
peterh64
so if you strip out the league game we lost to Bristol , London Welsh won the league, I take it we can choose a game to strip out?

Obtuse - (adj) not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
25/01/2015 12:06
see my above post , why do you feel the need to insult me, saying matches should be omitted to decide who wins the league could be considered the same
write posts all you like but stop the insults

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
CwmRheidol (IP Logged)
27/01/2015 17:56
This thread appears to have lost the original point. It seems that some individuals want to score points against London Welsh. All I can say is that we should move on, and those people should get out more

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
28/01/2015 13:05
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
Equally people point to Exeter as a model of how a club can develop long term. Now it is true that Exeter had a long-term plan but for whatever reason it is largely overlooked that they had (and have) a very wealthy backer and benefited from two property deals that took place at the most opportune time.

That's true. I think the reason why it's not mentioned is that Tony Rowe invested in Chiefs as a business rather than as a plaything, hence we got Sandy Park but Sandy Park is required to make a profit as a conference centre. Furthermore he's not bankrolling the rugby side of things like some clubs. The business has to support itself and so we can't just buy in players willy-nilly.

It seems to me that there's a massive disadvantage in being a London club because of the price of land. You can probably buy a few fields by the M5 in Devon for the price of a small office block in London and you can get planning permission to build a stadium if it's going to bring money into the county. Try the same in London - or in Richmond no less!

I do think that if Welsh are serious about staying at the top level, an academy system is vital. You get far more bang for your buck bringing 4 or 5 19/20 year olds through than in buying one or two ex-SH stars off the shelf.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
28/01/2015 13:25
As I understand it we do not get funds for an academy because Oxford is in Wasps area ?

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
28/01/2015 14:18
Quote:
Y Drenewydd
As I understand it we do not get funds for an academy because Oxford is in Wasps area ?

That does seem to be the case. I think the academy system was set up in 2002ish. All 12 prem teams got a geographical allocation but that left a massive gap down in the South West, hence the South West of England Rugby Academy was also set up. Plymouth, Exeter and Pirates all bid to run the academy and Exeter's business plan won. The three teams were of a similar level at that time, so I guess you could say that was the beginning of Exeter's rise.

However, other clubs seem to have academies which couldn't have been set up as part of the aforementioned 13. Worcester weren't in the premiership at the time. Their academy has produced quite a number of today's players (Kvesic and Wood spring immediately to mind). As far as I can ascertain the RFU pays the clubs something in the order of 120,000 (figure is from 2012, so possibly more now) to maintain an academy. Presumably there's some other way to go about the academy route?

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
28/01/2015 15:39
<<Presumably there's some other way to go about the academy route?>>

I'll have to consult my learned friend on that yer 'oner!

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
chappers (IP Logged)
28/01/2015 20:09
Worcester have an RFU funded academy and ironically their catchment area covers Coventry, whilst Wasps retain their current catchment area covering Oxford.
From what I can gather the RFU are not willing to recarve the areas and allow any other academies at present. That is part of LW's beef. We contribute to the funding of that academy system but don't benefit by receiving any up and coming talent through the ERDPP.
LW did try and run their own academy a while back but because it wasn't RFU recognised they were not protected by the rules that stop other clubs poaching the talent they identified and cultivated. Two high profile players where exactly that happened were Alex Corbisiero and Ollie Lindsay-Hague.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
thorpebayexile (IP Logged)
26/06/2015 23:41
Quote:
thorpebayexile
Quote:
peterh64
Quote:
thorpebayexile
I think a lot of what will happen is outside your hands. My guess is that this talk of a plan B would be looking at the necessity of a move back to ODP after relegation.
If you get relegated I imagine that your squad will be impacted more than it was after the last relegation and you will be forced to lose a fair chunk of the people drafted in over the summer.

With Bristol or worcester still in the Championship then any 'plan b' will be looking at how to be financially sustainable for a few years in the championship without a parachute payment each year.

My guess is that means a fairly quick return to ODP to try to build up again. This isn't an attempt to re-open a debate - it's just what I would put money on being considered in the plan b (if I were a betting man)

It would be nice if the people pontificating on LW re number of new players, where we will be next year had done just a smidgen of research

Hmm... we'll see. My money is on your 'plan b' being a re-trenchment back to ODP looking to be able to balance the books in the Championship. Time will tell.

Well I guess time did tell, and maybe some people had done a smidgen of research and spoken to a few people. As it happens I think it is the right decision for your club and the people putting money in will be able to balance the books for at least a year. The one thing they want to avoid again is getting promotion at the end of this season. It would break the club. Obviously imho.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:26:23:45:12 by thorpebayexile.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
paddytaf (IP Logged)
27/06/2015 13:08
As i've mentioned on another thread if & when we win the Championship instead of taking promotion take the funding. We are now committed to ODP for however long we need i would have thought, in the hope of building a strong club both on & off the pitch, & who knows create and develope an infrastruture that is sustainable for the future. Let's face it we have had our fingers burnt (Sm73)(Sm73) twice now at a cost of god knows how many MILLIONS (which we must of course thank all those generous benefactors for)(Sm152) but that sadly is not enough to keep us in the promised land. Plan B to Z must now be implemented (that is if we have other plans in the pipeline????) PADDYTAF.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
serge (IP Logged)
27/06/2015 17:27
If you were the RFU, would you put the future of England's players in the hands of London Welsh right now?

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
27/06/2015 17:48
They seem quite capable of excluding themselves without help from London Welsh.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
28/06/2015 13:15
Quote:
thorpebayexile
Quote:
thorpebayexile
Quote:
peterh64
Quote:
thorpebayexile
I think a lot of what will happen is outside your hands. My guess is that this talk of a plan B would be looking at the necessity of a move back to ODP after relegation.
If you get relegated I imagine that your squad will be impacted more than it was after the last relegation and you will be forced to lose a fair chunk of the people drafted in over the summer.

With Bristol or worcester still in the Championship then any 'plan b' will be looking at how to be financially sustainable for a few years in the championship without a parachute payment each year.

My guess is that means a fairly quick return to ODP to try to build up again. This isn't an attempt to re-open a debate - it's just what I would put money on being considered in the plan b (if I were a betting man)

It would be nice if the people pontificating on LW re number of new players, where we will be next year had done just a smidgen of research

Hmm... we'll see. My money is on your 'plan b' being a re-trenchment back to ODP looking to be able to balance the books in the Championship. Time will tell.

Well I guess time did tell, and maybe some people had done a smidgen of research and spoken to a few people. As it happens I think it is the right decision for your club and the people putting money in will be able to balance the books for at least a year. The one thing they want to avoid again is getting promotion at the end of this season. It would break the club. Obviously imho.

have you read the club statement?

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
paddytaf (IP Logged)
30/06/2015 14:13
Makes me want to throw up. LONDON WELSH was once a very proud WELSH CLUB outside the Principality. Sadly over the years it has completely lost that identity with all that was/is WELSH. i know that i'm saying the wrong thing here but, i would simply love this once great club to be the main focus and centre of the WELSH RUGBY UNION again. All of this said though each and every player who has pulled on the famous RED SHIRT of LONDON WELSH has always, and will always, have my 100% support.

To be 100% honest i couldn't care a flying fig about English rugby or England's rugby team. My focus is on WALES not England, who have thousands upon thousands more players to call upon and who are the GOLIATH to WALES's DAVID.

I'm off my soap box now, but that little rant has made me feel a hell of a lot better! PADDYTAF.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
peterh64 (IP Logged)
30/06/2015 16:06
Quote:
paddytaf
Makes me want to throw up. LONDON WELSH was once a very proud WELSH CLUB outside the Principality. Sadly over the years it has completely lost that identity with all that was/is WELSH. i know that i'm saying the wrong thing here but, i would simply love this once great club to be the main focus and centre of the WELSH RUGBY UNION again. All of this said though each and every player who has pulled on the famous RED SHIRT of LONDON WELSH has always, and will always, have my 100% support.
To be 100% honest i couldn't care a flying fig about English rugby or England's rugby team. My focus is on WALES not England, who have thousands upon thousands more players to call upon and who are the GOLIATH to WALES's DAVID.

I'm off my soap box now, but that little rant has made me feel a hell of a lot better! PADDYTAF.

actually Derek since I've been supporting I've been surprised how welsh it is, we've always had a welsh coach , welsh chairman and strong welsh theme running through the club- the obvious difficulty re players and the eqp sytem and we cant turn down money

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
paddytaf (IP Logged)
01/07/2015 13:26
Understand what you've said Peter, but it is so diluted now from our hey-day when Neil (Nelly) Bennett who played outside half for England, he had to play in WALES Colwyn Bay. (Mike Roberts actually arranged this game because that is where young Mike is from.) This was in order to gain some kind of connection with the club before he was allowed to officially play in a "CUP GAME" for WELSH.

He played for England at CARDIFF ARMS PARK 1979 while Mike Roberts second row played for WALES, final score WALES 27 England 3 (and yet another triple crown for WALES fourth in a row) Mike Roberts scored a try from 50 metres out (Sm126) (actually it was about 3 metres at most) although Mike might argue about this. Incidently first and only cap for Clive Griffiths who was our coach when Rowland Phillips captained the side 1997. Clive now coaches Doncaster who we play on the opening day of the season. Of course as time progressed and we needed to attract more players because our fortunes changed and the conveyor belt of WELSH players dried up, none of us ever thought that our WELSHNESS would be as diluted as it is now!

My initial reason for joining/supporting LONDON WELSH was because there was a genuine WELSH club in good old England. As i've said of course times change and we all have to accept that. LONDON WELSH has been and always will be my club, and from a VERY SELFISH point of view thank goodness it is back where it belongs OLD DEER PARK! PADDYTAF.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:07:01:13:40:00 by paddytaf.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
chappers (IP Logged)
01/07/2015 18:25
To be fair Derek, whilst that may be true of the pro side. the Welshness is very much still alive throughout the amateurs and is in fact still the ethos of the club. i.e a little Welsh oasis in the big bad city that is London.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
paddytaf (IP Logged)
03/07/2015 14:41
Have to admit everytime i walk through those "GOLDEN GATES" at ODP i always feel like i'm walking through the "GREEN GREEN GRASS OF HOME". & i don't even originate from "GODS OWN COUNTRY" PADDYTAF.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
thorpebayexile (IP Logged)
19/12/2016 07:44
I still don't understand how after the relegation the club management didn't set expenditure to match revenues? It beggars belief.

Quote:
thorpebayexile
Quote:
peterh64
Quote:
thorpebayexile
I think a lot of what will happen is outside your hands. My guess is that this talk of a plan B would be looking at the necessity of a move back to ODP after relegation.
If you get relegated I imagine that your squad will be impacted more than it was after the last relegation and you will be forced to lose a fair chunk of the people drafted in over the summer.

With Bristol or worcester still in the Championship then any 'plan b' will be looking at how to be financially sustainable for a few years in the championship without a parachute payment each year.

My guess is that means a fairly quick return to ODP to try to build up again. This isn't an attempt to re-open a debate - it's just what I would put money on being considered in the plan b (if I were a betting man)

It would be nice if the people pontificating on LW re number of new players, where we will be next year had done just a smidgen of research

Hmm... we'll see. My money is on your 'plan b' being a re-trenchment back to ODP looking to be able to balance the books in the Championship. Time will tell.

 
Re: The Funding Fight Steps Up A Gear
Y Drenewydd (IP Logged)
19/12/2016 08:09
I thought it was Christmas not Easter Monday!

They didn't and the benefactor put money in as some clubs do.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016:12:19:08:21:19 by Y Drenewydd.

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