Leon’s playing career - he was a lock - was cut short by a serious injury, and so he turned to coaching at an unusually early age.

The 34-year-old Kiwi’s been telling Barney Burnham about his rugby career.

Leon Holden

LH: I played for New Zealand Youth, then NPC for Thames Valley. Then I was supposed to go for the New Zealand Junior trials. A week before I went, I picked up the same sort of injury which Ben Gotting has - a fractured eye socket. So I missed the trials and went straight to France for a year.

I loved France, but it was brutal on the field. You had to wear a cricket box for every game, because they were always grabbing you where it hurts. The routine thuggery was just amazing.

That was back in 92. Then , when I came home, I picked up a really bad knee injury. I was going to be out for about a year, but, in the interim, an old clubmate (from Marist, in Hamilton) talked me into taking charge of the under-19 team. Mark Van Gisbergen was in the side, straight out of school. He was playing fly half.

I moved up to the under-21s, then I managed the seniors, before I started playing again. But then I picked up another bad injury, which ended my playing career. So I went back to my old school, as a teacher. Luckily, the Principal was my old NPC coach.

BB: Rugby opens a lot of doors in New Zealand, doesn’t it?

LH: It certainly does. There were 55 applicants for the job, and I think I was the least qualified!

I took charge of the first XV in 1998 and they won the championship for three years in a row.

Then the opportunity to coach Marist came up again. So I went back to Waikato to do that, and Mark (Van Gisbergen) was still there. Glen Jackson (now with Saracens) had just left. They were the club’s two fly halves. I tried to talk Glen into staying, but he’d signed for Bay of Plenty, in the NPC. The good thing for Mark was that he became the number one fly half and played every game. He kicked us to victory in the final, which we hadn’t won for nine years, even though we’d finished first in the round robin six or seven times. We just choked every time we reached a semifinal, or final. When we won it, we’d finished second, which was a deliberate tactic.

BB: That has a familiar ring for Wasps supporters.

LH: It does, doesn’t it? We had guys like Marty Holah and Jono Gibbes, and the supporters often criticised me for pulling them off early in games. I used to give them extra days off training, because they’d come back from the Chiefs or All Blacks having been thrashed.

We weren’t favourites to win, but we just peaked nicely. Anyway, I won a couple of awards for that. Then I had the opportunity to apply to be coach of my old NPC side, who’d had a shocking year. They’d lost every game. I was only 32 and there were other guys with more experience than me, but I was lucky to have had John Mitchell as my mentor, and I’d spent a lot of time with him. Not only did he help me coaching-wise, but also on the political side. It’s amazing how big a part that plays, especially in the interview process. So I got that job, and gave up my teaching post . It meant a huge pay cut, but it was my passion to be a fulltime rugby coach, and I was the youngest NPC coach in New Zealand. Everybody at Marist said :”You’re crazy, what are you doing? They’ve lost all their games and came last. Here, you’re coaching All Blacks. You should stay and get into the Waikato system.” But I thought “Bugger it, let’s just go for it.”

Because the team had had a bad year beforehand, I was able to go in and say: “It’s got to be my way.” They had to do what I wanted, and we had a very successful year. We were only one win off getting to the semifinals, which was a great achievement for the team. We were the most improved side in New Zealand.

Being in that job meant I had the benefit of attending all the NZRU seminars and spending weekends with the likes of Graham Mourie, Grant Fox, Alex Wylie, Bruce Robertson and guys like that. It was great to be in that sort of company.

BB: How did you end up in Japan?

LH: The Japanese know just what they want. They sent a guy to New Zealand and they interviewed five of us, I think. I did my homework well, learning all about Japanese customs and all that sort of stuff. When they offered me the job, I talked to my wife about it. She was a real home girl and had hardly even left her home town, but she said we should go for it.

Financially, it was very lucrative, but it was very hard work. The team I took over had just been relegated from the top league, so I think I probably got the job because of my record with other underperforming sides. We won promotion back to the top league - but, with about six games to go, it got to the stage where things had become almost unworkable, particularly with all the cultural differences. So I was quite happy to leave after that. Brian Smith and Grant Batty also left coaching jobs there after one year.

It’s hard to go in as a coach, if you’re totally new to Japan. It’s much easier if you’ve played there for a few years first, because you’ll know how things operate. I know I made a lot of mistakes.

BB: So was Warren Gatland instrumental in bringing you to Wasps?

LH: Yes, but my Wasps connection had started before I went to Japan. When I got the Thames Valley job, I picked up a top coaching scholarship. There was a fair bit of money involved, so I thought “What shall I do with it?”

I knew Gats from my playing days. I’d played against him when I was about 19 or 20. In those days, a lot of All Blacks were still playing in club rugby.

A friend of mine who came for Christmas was the younger brother of Steve Gordon, who was an All Black lock and best mates with Warren.. Gats had actually coached Thames Valley seven years before I did, so there was another little connection there. So I just emailed him via the website, saying :”You might not remember me, but I’ve got this scholarship. Can I come and spend a week with you at Wasps?”

He got right back and said I’d be very welcome. That coincided with the first championship year, 2002/3.

When I got there and found them doing things like resting players and peaking at the right time, it was a funny sort of feeling. I thought it was a great setup and great bunch of guys. After that, I always followed Wasps and got their scores via the BBC.

Anyway, when we were in Japan, we had to stay there for the whole twelve months, for tax reasons, even though I‘d left the job. I rang Gats, because I was looking for a manager in the UK. He marked my card on who would be the best agents to be involved with and then suggested I sent a CV to Wasps. I knew he was leaving, but I had no intention of going for his job.

A few days later, David Davies rang to tell me they’d be flying me over for an interview. So I flew from Japan to London and back, then from Japan to New Zealand, New Zealand to Fiji for a holiday. Then back to New Zealand, where David rang me three days later and said : “We want you over here now!”. So I was back on another plane, this time back to London.

BB: Nice for your Air Miles account.

LH: Yes, but not quite so good for my seven months pregnant wife! But it all happened very quickly, and here we are.

BB: A few months on, what have you made of it so far?

LH: It’s excellent. Everything I thought it would be. On the performance side, we didn’t set ourselves the pre-season target of winning every game, but it’s just happened that we’re second in the league. As a coaching staff, we’re going to be getting better week by week. I said at the start, and Geech said the same, that it would take us until Christmas to find our rhythm as a coaching staff, management staff , as a club and as a team. There’s still a little bit of: “Oh, Warren did this… in Warren’s day, etc.”

BB: Frustrating, but understandable.

LH: Yes, but you’ve got to leave it behind. It was great to see Warren back and he’ll always be welcome. I think he misses the place. But I just love it. Today was a day off, but Ian, Shaun, Craig and myself all ended up in the office at 9.30 this morning, because we just love what we’re doing.

BB: What about the cultural side? You mentioned that your wife was heavily pregnant. Your son, Harry, was in fact born here, wasn’t he?

LH: Yes. She was going to stay in New Zealand to have him, and I was going to fly back out there, but we ended up having him here.

I love it here, everything about it. My parents always say I’m a closet Pom. I love the lifestyle, the corner pubs, everything about it.

BB: What about the rugby atmosphere? I was lucky enough to have a long chat with Gats when he was back, and I suggested that he must at times yearn for the anonymity of London. If Wasps lose, you can walk through Acton or Ealing and nobody will know who you are. If Waikato lose,everybody will come up and tell him exactly where he’s going wrong.

LH: That’s what I like best about being in London. I don’t think I could coach in one of the small Welsh towns, because it would be like being in a goldfish bowl. The stress of the job is enough in itself, never mind living in a place where it’s so claustrophobic and you get bombarded all the time.

BB: But is it that intensity which puts New Zealand where it is now?

LH: No, I don’t think so. The crowds here are actually far more passionate. It’s far better - my wife’s noticed it, too. We find it refreshing here.

BB: You’re in a unique position to comment on the decision to stage the 2001 World Cup in New Zealand. As a New Zealander who’s worked in Japan, do you share the view of many people that the IRB missed a trick by not awarding the tournament to Japan.? Would they have staged a good tournament?

LH: They would have done a brilliant job in terms of organisation and efficiency, but there’s no way that it would have been a good World Cup for spectators or players. You have to remember that a lot of the big names who were backing Japan were paid to do so.

Before and after the games, there just wouldn’t have been the sort of atmosphere in the streets - the flags, the crowds, the banter.

A lot of the Japanese that go to rugby matches don’t know what they’re watching.

BB: New Zealand obviously has the passion and the tradition, but many people are questioning whether they have the infrastructure or even the stadia to cope with the sort of numbers that went to Australia two years ago.

LH: Yes, and it’s fair comment. I actually felt that it should have gone to South Africa, but it’s gone to New Zealand and I’m happy with that. But, as far as developing the game is concerned, the Japanese are still so far away from being competitive. We had five Kiwis in my side, including Deon Muir, who used to captain the Chiefs. Our guys were all fully professional, and some of them were pretty big boys. There were a couple who were Martin Purdy’s size. You’d give them a ball and tell them to hang on to it and Deon would have it off them within three seconds. Do it the other way round, and they never got it off Deon. If you took the foreigners out of the Japanese game, they’d be terrible.

BB: Many observers are expressing concern about the lack of imagination shown in the English club game at the moment. People say fear of relegation is a big factor. The Autumn internationals certainly bore out that England aren’t too clever behind the scrum at the moment. What’s your view?

LH: There’s still relegation in the NPC, in New Zealand! I really think the refereeing doesn’t help. The mindset has to change.

BB: But would you want things to be like they are in Super 14, as it’s about to become, where blatant forward passes, knockons and crooked feeds are all routinely ignored?

LH: No, there has to be a balance. The other thing is that the conditions here are sometimes poor. Most pitches are pretty good, but the Leicester and Llanelli pitches over the weekend were pretty boggy. You don’t really get that in Super 14. Those conditions mean that, as coaches, you have to have that 10-man rugby idea at the back of your mind.

Maybe it is a cultural thing, because the England game has been built on forward power for a long time.

I do feel sorry for clubs like Newcastle and Northampton, who really do try to play some decent rugby.

I think Wasps have struck the right balance, but I do believe a lot of the problem is down to refereeing. But coaches obviously play their part. Both Geech and I have coached sides in games where they’ve been huge underdogs. Sometimes you have that element of not so much being negative, but slightly cynical around the tackle area. Put Oogie in that England backline, and it’d be a bit more inventive, wouldn’t it?

BB: So you think that England have the talent to play an expansive game, but it’s the mindset that’s stopping them?

LH: Yes, I do, but I think it’s very hard to go from the way they play in the Premiership, week in, week out. I am actually much more of a fan of the UK game than I am of Southern Hemisphere rugby. I’d much rather sit down and watch a Premiership game than an NPC game. Or Munster against Toulouse in the Heineken Cup - there’s so much passion and crowd noise. You just don’t get it in Super 14, because it’s a franchise thing.

BB: Wasps are going down to one of the great traditional hotbeds of Welsh rugby this weekend, Stradey Park. These next two games really are must win matches, aren’t they? Anything other than two wins, and the European campaign’s virtually dead in the water.

LH: We’re not even looking to the return game. We’re simply concentrating on this week. We’re not even thinking about the four tries. The first priority is just to get a win. If we do play well, we should have a chance of getting a bonus point win. I’m really looking forward to it. I’ve never been to Wales before, but I’ve read all the books about the great teams of the 70s.

BB: You’d be too young to have seen them live, but you must have seen film of the likes of Barry John, Gerald Davies, JPR Williams and Gareth Edwards. Absolute legends.

LH: Yes. I was born in 1971 and I played fly half for most of my early career. I grew up trying to swing my hips like Barry John.

BB: The irony was that, up until then, it was the All Blacks who were renowned for powerful forwards and pedestrian backs, while the Lions had the magical backs but lightweight packs. Then, after they won in New Zealand in 1971, with a pack that got them near-parity, no less a figure than Colin Meads said he hoped British rugby wouldn’t forget its traditional strengths. That’s just what happened - we became forward-orientated and New Zealand began to produce a stream of quality backs.

LH: Maybe it is swings and roundabouts. I think it often depends on just what type of player a certain side has. Obviously, New Zealand have got Carter and they’ve had Umaga - but if Umaga retires and they can’t find a centre as good as him, maybe the All Blacks will go back to a less adventurous style of back play with more focus on power.

BB: Two years from the next World Cup, New Zealand are clearly the favourites.

LH: Yes, they are - but I still fancy the French. The All Blacks fear them the most, I think. They have that unpredictable streak. When I played there, we practised that structured flair all the time. They’re so good at running into gaps. The main emphasis was on that, and offloading into the gap.

BB: That seems to be the difference with the British game at the moment. Our players look for contact, while other sides look for space. They’re obviously doing that because they’re being told to.

LH: Yes, I think so - but I think Wasps are better than that. Our forwards have the ball carriers who are beginning to show the ability. We have good ball players from the front row to the back row, and a lot of really athletic guys. That’s where we can take ourselves to the next level - getting the forwards running into gaps, spinning into gaps and offloading in the gaps. It’s not going to happen overnight, but it’s definitely one way in which we can take our game forward. We have to keep evolving and changing, while other sides are trying to work us out.

BB: So, you’re here for the foreseeable future, then ? You’re clearly a happy man, who’s enjoying what he’s doing.

LH: Yes, I’m loving it. One of my key areas is the lineouts, and it makes for 80 stressful minutes on Sundays! I’ve been pleasantly pleased with them, actually. What people need to remember is that we train the least of all the Premiership sides. So that means we spend less time than any other side on lineouts.

I know the reaction of the fans would be:”That’s stupid. Why aren’t we spending more time on the lineout?”

We could spend more time on it, but that would be to the detriment of other areas. Don’t get me wrong. This year, we have devoted more time to lineouts - probably an extra 20 minutes a week, working the schedule to the last minute. Extra time spent on scrums and lineouts might bring more immediate results, but it would effectively tire players out - i n April and May, with Twickenham hopefully in sight, we wouldn’t be peaking in the way we have in the past three years. In fact, we could even be going backwards. It’s a fine balance, but I can fully understand the fans’ frustration at times.

The statistics do make interesting reading. On average, we’re throwing in to 18 lineouts a game, compared with 12 for the opposition. In some games, we’ve thrown in to as many as 23 lineouts. As of two weeks ago, we’d won 78% of ours, while the opposition had won 77% of theirs. So we’re effectively missing about 4 or 5 lineouts a game, and the opposition are missing about three.

We’re getting more lineouts, because the opposition’s kicking the ball out, while we’re trying to keep the ball on the field. With a total of 30 lineouts a game, we’re actually getting more lineout ball than the opposition.

When you think about it, we’ve had four different hookers this season, and at no time have we ever had more than two fit locks. Our philosophy is to spend as much time as we can running the ball, but we do recognise that we have to keep working on the set pieces. I’d love to have 100% success at the lineout, but there’s more to the game than that.

Last season, poor old Gats had to do all the technical set piece stuff, on top of being Director of Rugby. This season, with Craig and myself looking after it, it’s working a lot better and the mindset is changing. On opposition lineouts, we used to just think: “Let them have it.” Now, the guys are going out there to steal opposition ball. For them, stealing a ball is like scoring a try is for Paul Sackey.

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