Mini Rugby Arrives at Harlequin Amateurs

Best of luck with this.

Here's hoping in future years we'll have a player coming through the academy who first played for the Ams Minis

Going to be interesting to see how many join Quins rather than the existing local clubs - could be a big blow to Teddington, Twickenham in particular.

That will be a problem TeddyQ

Yes, I can see this being a problem, especially to Teddington as Quins are right on their doorstep. In my experience you get a few players who 'drift' and have a season or two at other clubs. It depends what kind of set-up and infrastructure the Ams have in place for Youth Rugby as I know you need masses of changing space, pitches, room in the clubhouse, food etc. If they can pull all that off and be competitive in league fixtures then they will grow. The great thing they have going for them is the harlequins brand, whilst Twickenham RFC have a pedigree of success in youth rugby. The current Colts side were Herts/Middx Div 1 champions at U14 and U16, and, the B team were Div 4 Champions at U16. Next year you may see a few turning up at Quins as they get soaked up into senior rugby. Youth rugby, as anyone with experience will tell you, is the life blood of any club and the 'money maker' too. Time will tell, but good luck!

Bloody awful development! All the years I have praised the fact that Quins brand has not been used to entice kids, that clubs have survived and grown and developed youth rugby on merits other than a 'big name'. Sad day! Hope it fails.

PS Look to Staines, Chobham, Cobham and many others who find it hard enough to maintain teams at youth level ( and thus to support the senior sides) without the 'Quins getting involved. Do I sound angry? You bet I am!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:12:17:21:26 by kevin.

The Quins brand has been used to atract kids via the community scheme, curtain raisers etc.

This is not Quins backed, but another part of the ams, good luck to them...not a fan.

I dont think it will effect local clubs - why bother to drive some distance - I may well be interested as i am in the centre of London and its as easy to get there as any where else and by 10 year old has been a full Quins member and ST holder since he was 4 - an exception to the norm perhaps but I only see good things and no down side

on on quins

Quote:

rodders1
I dont think it will effect local clubs - why bother to drive some distance - I may well be interested as i am in the centre of London and its as easy to get there as any where else and by 10 year old has been a full Quins member and ST holder since he was 4 - an exception to the norm perhaps but I only see good things and no down side

Then who will it affect? And Rosslyn Pk, Teddington, Richmond and numerous others are as easy for you to get to. Your observation/assessment is, shall I say, ridiculous!

[quote kevin]Bloody awful development! All the years I have praised the fact that Quins brand has not been used to entice kids, that clubs have survived and grown and developed youth rugby on merits other than a 'big name'. Sad day! Hope it fails.

quote]

I dont get your stance at all. Why are you angry about this development. This gives kids in the local area another opportunity to learn and be involved in rugby. It allows students from St Mary's to get some practical coaching experience, and in the future will help keep the Ams squads running. The Ams are in no way different from the clubs you mentioned above, in fact they are at a disadvantage due to the lack of a youth setup and the increased membership they miss out on because of that.
This is not Quins wading in to pillage small clubs, this is an amateur club trying to secure a future.

Isn't this Quins Amateurs not Quins. I thought they were separate clubs?

Not really Kevin - we have more affiliation with Quins than any other London club
- we could go to Esher, but the 10 year old is more Quins orientated - he has been a ST holder and member since 5, so for him it would be the most natural thing in the world.
We did try Richmond, but not successful
The kids I have in mind are not affiliated and thro my own son may be more comfortable at a Quins mini club.
To be honest I am not that bothered about mini rugby unless the desire comes from the child - physical maturity changes all things for young boys
However, i understand your views, but for us its a good option in the absence of others.

on on quins

'ridiculous' is probably the wrong term to use
- I did try the one club that I was fairly familiar with and it didnt work
- I have no connection with the other clubs in west London other than Esher - and that is too far
- Strawberry Hill is much easier
- I thought the PosiQuin post was good
- in my own case i would bring some boys who otherwise wouldnt play club mini rugby - so in this case its a win win situation

on on quins

this will be a problem in years to come for teddington , as the facilities at bushy park for youth rugby are woeful.Uneven pitches , dreadful dated changing rooms, evidence of vermin in and around the clubhouse area. and a dated bar/kitchen.There have been promises of new facilitiesfor donkey's years but nothing has ever happened. If harlequin minis do succeed and establish themselves at st mary's i foresee a migration at the upper end from local clubs as the facilities at st marys are excellent.However as Teddington supporters will tell you it takes well over a decade to establish a minis setup capable of competing with other clubs
ps i am also sure ~St Mary's told Teddington that they couldnt use the facilities there on a sunday because of other sporting commitments when they enquireda few years ago?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:13:07:48:02 by Bish SAY NO TO TEAM GB 2012.

Rodders

Your posts make me believe that your offspring do not want to play rugby at all, but they want to be part of Quins. I had no affiliation to London Irish or Teddington or Twickenham but my boys play/played for all three. They got good coaching, played good rugby, competitively, with no hankering to be part of a Quins set-up even though at all times we as a family were Quins supporters through and through.

Essentially you are saying that unless your kids play for a Quins side/club then they won't play at all. Pathetic really.

i too think it's a sad day.

Quins' approach to mini-rugby : affiliating more than 40 local clubs and setting up the curtain raisers, and the training days and so on has been exemplary: supporting mini-rugby in our part of the world, allowing 1000s of kids to feel they are associated with the Quins brand.

It's a very competitive world out there, many clubs have only just enough players, many have a 'hole' or two where a particualr year group folded through lack of numbers. I could easily see that a quins brand will create one of those clubs with a squad of 45 U11s, 15 of who play reguallry and 30 who languish in B teams, while other clubs go to the wall.

That wouldn't be good for minirugby in the area it would be sad.

Quote:

kwin
I could easily see that a quins brand will create one of those clubs with a squad of 45 U11s, 15 of who play reguallry and 30 who languish in B teams, while other clubs go to the wall. That wouldn't be good for minirugby in the area it would be sad.

Firstly this has got nothing to do with Quins, Harlequin Ams are an independent club in their own right.

They are also a growing club, a club that nearly "went to the wall" themselves a few years ago, and are now trying to put things in place to ensure the club has a future.

Krusty, How can you say that they don't have anything to do with Quins?

Harlequins Ams are:

1. Called Harlequins

2. Play in the famous quartered Shirt

3. Have that 'all important' Jester on their shirt.

Yes, They are independent of the professional club but they still share the same brand and, of course this will be very attractive to young kids.

Kwin's quote is a pretty accurate prediction of what might happen.

I feel that it is a blatant use of branding to attract children.

The professional club decided not develop mini rugby, and, as Kwin said, afilliated to local clubs to them..indeed, some clubs play in shirts with their club crest AND the jester on it (Haslemere).

This is a tough one. As the ex Community Development Officer at Quins (2003 - 2007) we developed and I must add messed up some relationships with local clubs. However there was and still is no desire to go down the mini route with Quins. The ams, are like several posters have said are a club in their own right and to that end are acting in their best interest.

They in time I'm sure will take part in Quins Match Day activity, just as Teddington, Twickenham and almost 70 other clubs have.

There is also very little evidence of mini/youth players graduating into senior teams at most junior clubs. Colts sides are fewer and fewer, as are 3rd and 4th teams. If you do have a 3rd and 4th team, they tend to be chaps in their mid 30s and are very difficult to break in to as they tend not train etc. If in the future Quins Ams are able to get ex minis/youth into their teams - great and good luck.

What is needed to make this work is simple, good people who are excellent organisers, Teddington Minis and Westcombe Park; space, Twickenham and Upminster spring to mind, and ideally facilities. In my experience, students are not great as holidays, exams take them away during your season. Likewise they like stash and payment...stash is usually managable, but unless the college or a wealthy parent bank rolls the wage bill, on those wet Sunday mornings lying in their pits seems better. Come on we've all been there!

To all the minis and juniors folks on CAW, keep up the good work, stay up to date with the game and remember its about the kids, not you!!! Judging by the number of children at Quins yesterday rugby in the broadest sense in SW London is in safe hands. Remember several of the current crop of Quins played their rugby on the same circuit and with clubs that you might be involved with now.

Nick Hyde

IMO The last thing that we need in our patch of SW London is another mini-rugby club.

Within 20 mins from the Stoop is already Twickenham, Teddington, Staines, London Irish, Richmond, London Scottish, London Welsh, Bank of England, Rosslyn Park, Weybridge, Grasshoppers. Another 10 mins you'd find Wimbledon, Kings Wimbledon, Esher and others too.

Still, I suppose QuinsAms are a club like any other and they have a right to have a go. To the extent that they can bring NEW players into the game then that would be a good thing, but starting a club with U11s. U10s and U9s seems to indicate that their plan is the reverse: to poach players. How many U11s are there out there in SW London who are interested in Quins, want to play mini-rugby, but don't already play for a club? Few I would think. Encouraging children to switch clubs isn't a good thing for the game as a whole, where the more, healthy clubs the better.

Accepting that the Ams are separate from the Offy club, what I expect the Offy club to do is to simply treat Quins Ams exactly the same way as the other 40 clubs affiliated. I hope we don't see Quins Ams minis able to advertise in the programme, or to providing mascots, or playing display games or having a 'special link' etc etc. Some existing mini clubs have worked long and hard with the Quins communuity team to help the Quins programme be a success, and they deserve support now.

Quote:

JTD
Harlequins Ams are:

1. Called Harlequins

2. Play in the famous quartered Shirt

3. Have that 'all important' Jester on their shirt.


I feel that it is a blatant use of branding to attract children.

So harlequins ams cant have a mini's setup because they play in a famous shirt and are called harlequins?

PosiQuin - that does seem to be the main argument. Alot of paranoia I think and I'm equally sure they will be treated the same by the club as anyone else.

QUIN KONG

Well I for one will be there from September with my 2 as it is right on my doorstep and I can walk there on a Sunday morning rather then driving to Bushey park or Hampton.

Great idea for us in the area and green too (I get a workout walking as well as saving C02 emmissions).

Quote:

PosiQuin

Quote:

JTD
Harlequins Ams are:

1. Called Harlequins

2. Play in the famous quartered Shirt

3. Have that 'all important' Jester on their shirt.


I feel that it is a blatant use of branding to attract children.

So harlequins ams cant have a mini's setup because they play in a famous shirt and are called harlequins?

Posi. Please read posts properly before you quote others in reply.

My argument was against Fursty's claim that it has nothing to do with Harlequins.

I am not a fan of this move by the Ams. As I'm sure you are aware by reading this thread, historically, Quins didn't venture into mini rugby but embraced the local established clubs. This didn't come without its problems as Nick Hyde has suggested in his post. Quins knew that if they had a mini/youth rugby set-up it would decimate the clubs local to them. Of course an 11 year old Quins fan would want to play for Quins. Just like an 11 year old Wasps fan or Sarries fan would want to play for their team. To try and say the two clubs are not connected is a red herring, of course they are.

If they are to do this well. They need to have a good infrastructure. Having done a little research, I don't believe they do and are moving too soon. Time will tell.

Dear old Kevin, you do love being confrontational - still if it pleases you !
'Essentially' you are making ill founded assumption for the sake of chat, so be it - lets chat

My 10 year old has affiliation with one club - Quins

- at the mini rugby level it is important to have a social and geographic relationship with a club.
The desire of minis to play the game is tenuous and my personal approach is to follow the route of least resistance - if a boy wants to go to a certain club, thats perfect.
At the mini level many things can turn a kid off the game and equally many things can turn a kid on.
Playing with his friends at school or a club is invariably a turn on, going to a club where father and son have zero contact is invariably a turn off.
Mini rugby is only about fun - the real game starts at 15/16 when they physically mature and that would normally be at school.
However,lack of school rugby makes a club contribution more important than in the past.

The comments made on other educated posts suggest that the mini area contributes very little to senior rugby at any level - not my comments Kevin - so lets not start getting angry !!

My personal hope is that my 10 year old has a bit of fun
- i dont want an overly competitive environment
- at this age i only want him to have a bit of fun.

I am not familiar with the problems of the local west London clubs and could not make any judgement on taking my 10 year old to play rugby at any of those clubs
- it would only appear that we would upset someone somewhere
any way

on on quins

Quote:

JTD

I am not a fan of this move by the Ams. As I'm sure you are aware by reading this thread, historically, Quins didn't venture into mini rugby but embraced the local established clubs. This didn't come without its problems as Nick Hyde has suggested in his post. Quins knew that if they had a mini/youth rugby set-up it would decimate the clubs local to them.

I dont believe that the ams are able or aiming to run the mini's on the scale that Quins would, certainly to the point of decimating other local clubs.

Quote:

JTD
If they are to do this well. They need to have a good infrastructure.

..and run it successfully. At the end of the day this is what matters, and if its shoddy it will deservedly fail. However, no one can tell yet as its not even started.

Quote:

JTD
Having done a little research, I don't believe they do and are moving too soon. Time will tell.

Time will indeed tell. But lets not condemn it yet.

kwin,you and i have worked with mini rugby in this area for countless years and i whole heartedly agree with you that the last this we need is another mini/youth rugby club..
as for the comment about having nothing to do with the senior club.Krusty you are on another planet!!

Rodders
Your last post is so ...shall we say, contradictory.

You obviously have had no rugby club affiliation other than as a supporter of Quins. That in itself is no bad thing. But look at what you said about geographical and social links. Then ask yourself if Quins satisfy the criteria.

I take it your 10 year old does not yet play rugby. Choose a club now and see if Quins will mean that much if he/she takes to the game. A true test of whether it is the game or the name that matters!

I confront rather than bottle an argument, especially when I see major flaws in the proposal. Only Nick has suggested that junior rugby has no influence on senior rugby! But he fails miserably to see the broad picture ie that clubs are desperately trying to change that very status.

Trust me.Get your offspring to join an existing club. It will open our eyes to the reality og grass roots rugby.And you will have a new perspective on rugby life... its not just for on field heroics and success you know.

In response, I am very aware of the broad picture, and many clubs are making great strides in converting youth players to senior players, however due to many issues along the rugby players development drop out does occur. Fact.

Junior rugby has a huge effect of senior rugby, where good practice is shared, and in my time I saw great examples and some poor examples. My suggestion was simple, that I felt that there were poor pathways into senior rugby. I would be keen to see the numbers of players who play for the senior sides at the clubs they attended as mini and/or juniors.

To be honest if players move clubs, it has to be better than players leaving the game.

By setting up 9s 10s & 11s are tapping in to the richest source of young players, who in most cases are not bound by crowded fixture lists at school level etc, however if the other clubs in the area do a good job especially at 7s and 8s the players and parents will stay put.

The one thing that is clear, is that all involved are if for a tough ride as there is a mountain of work to do just to get started.

I am open minded on this, and would encourage all involved in the junior game to share experience with rival clubs to make the game as strong as possible.

Nick

Thank-you. As your post is extremely diplomatic may I ask a couple of straight questions as your stance on the Quins Amateurs is as clear as mud.

Is the move by them good or bad for local rugby clubs?

Do you believe that the 'Game' will prevail over the 'Name'? (I think I know your answer to ths).But the strain on existing clubs will surely be manifest in lower recruitment levels and, more importantly, retention levels?

Kevin
Question 1 - No, not great, but I wish them luck and they have every right to try.
Question 2 - Yes

My feeling is that the clubs which are well run, have strong structures in place will continue to go from strength to strength. That generally means age groups do not act in isolation and clubs get as many people involved who can help in the running of the organisation. However those which are poorly run, coached and perhaps generally struggle for good pitches, changing etc might struggle if the product at the H'quins Ams is better. (No current evidence that it will be any better or worse)

Recruitment and retention will be put under strain, but I think the game will prevail over the brand. The area I would like to hear more about is St Mary's input, as they will be able to up the ante somewhat, but that might mean less ownership for the club.

Retention issues are complex, and as I suggested before, there are reasons why players move on, and/or leave the game, that said clubs also must consider if having 50 plus youngsters in any age group is good for the game - pros and cons.

If the Harlequins Ams minis turns out to be great in all aspects then they will gain players, no doubt, and they have a strong name. However do senior players go to the Ams just because its Quins Ams? I not too sure, but I doubt it as they nearly folded with out the merger with Lockside. The brand is undoubtably strong, but in mini rugby there are some fantastic clubs, who are not so strong in their adult set ups.

What I would hate to see is parents taking children to play at the Ams just because its Quins, I hope that parents and youngsters are loyal to their clubs and friends.

I would be interested to hear the views of current Community team at Quins. My views are based on what I know and also my thoughts, based on experience working in the local game.

Interesting assumptions Kevin !

Most of your comments are correct re my 10 year old, but not regards me....

... but within the spirit of the chat, I suppose I can talk a little bit about my past without it being misconstrued.

I played 1st 15 national level rugby until age 45, and then vets for another 7 years - consequently I have very, very, close affiliations to a number of clubs in England and a good few else where.
Later in life I was seduced back to Quins ( as a spectator ) - by one of my son in laws - ( because of my past connection )

I was never much of a spectator, but having a new, young family, I felt it right to re-engage with the game and Quins was as natural club to revisit as any other.

I am an honorary member of at least 4 clubs and was captain of various teams for long periods in at least 3 of them.
Its fair to say that still I have a very, very, close personal affiliations with all of those clubs but none are local to where I now live.

In addition, the Hong Kong 7's is my personal creation - I started it as the Rothmans/Cathy 7's ( I ran the Rothmans Brand in South East Asia at the time, and played for the Hong Kong Club) - my involvement in rugby clubs is a bit extensive.

- However, I do respect your concerns - but my goal is different.
I am trying to encourage a young boy to have some fun in an environment where he will be most comfortable.
Quins Am could offer that environment.
- After all he has been to nearly every Quins home game since age 4 and 90% of games in relegation year - including the away games - as I have said in previous posts he has been a full member and ST holder since age 5
Quins is his club, and I would agree he would see a mini club it as an extension of Quins - I see nothing wrong with that.

Regarding locality, I am not familiar with any other club or their locality mentioned in these posts.

...and yes he does play rugby ( for the last two years )
He represents his school at scrum half — he played against Dulwich Prep two weeks ago and beat them - much to Nick's chagrin.

I am very sensitive to the impact of the game on young bodies and minds and believe that at age 10 it is a game were a child has to fall in love with the romantic ideal — the reality needs a bit more maturity.

Pathetic. ridiculous, contradictory.

Harsh words indeed, to use about someone you dont know and who simply does not share your views.

'Trust you', probably not.

'Open my eyes to grass roots rugby' - pretty wide open already....
.... and it is a fact that mini rugby contributes little to the longer term - unpalatable that may be, but there it is.

Other than Quins I have no knowledge, involvement or interest in SW London and it would be impossible for me to to be socially engaged in SW London.
If we were to move to live in Richmond or where ever I am sure my view would be different.

- its always dangerous making assumptions about someone you dont know.

on on quins



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:15:00:34:06 by rodders1.

I have ben involved in mini / midi / junior rugby for 15 years, the lad is now 23.

Based further south in Surrey I did wonder, many years ago why Quins did not have a mini set up. London Irish did and whilst my lad's year group beat them, many others didn't. The ground at Sunbury on Sunday morning was heaving. I accepted, with good grace, that they had always had that set up and the LI cachment area was throughout London - today it even includes Reading! We always knew LI was a tough one.

However, the Quins brand is different. Its about a multi coloured, quartered shirt. I've been a Quins supporter all my life and I would have a problem explaining to my son why he has to play rugby for one club when the club we are so passionate about each week suddenly becomes the opposition!

As an immediate family, we are past that, but I'm thinking of the future. I want to take grandkids down to the local club, have a beer with mates and then watch/support Quins as it always has been.

Quins mini rugby is not right. If the Ams proceed with this then the Club should ensure that the minis do not play in that quartered shirt. Personally, I hope the Ams drop the idea.

Nigel

Just watching the highlights of yesterday - just as exciting as yesterday - goosebumps etc

Nigel, i understand your views
However, I think it is the right thing to do - there is a better argument that it will be good for the game rather than the opposite.
Quins has never been a local club, its a London club and always had most of its players from all over the place.
Any boys I may bring along do not currently play for a club - school yes.
There may be conflict with other clubs - it would be naive to say otherwise but boys will always follow their parent.
- and as for playing in the shirt - of course they should, it would be wrong not to.
I wish them well.

on on quins



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:15:00:37:12 by rodders1.

A lot of very strong feelings out there around the formation of a Mini's section by Harlequin Amateurs. It would be interesting to know whether any of the vocal objectors have a biased view due to their affliation/involvement in running other local mini Rugby clubs?

As a Quins fan and a current member of the Harlequin Amateurs I can only see the positive side of this for Rugby in the area. The facilities at St Marys are superb, all Coaches will be RFU level 1 at the start or will qualify during the season so the kids will hopefully enjoy it and develope their Rugby skills. This is also an opportunity for the St Marys Students to gain experience of coaching Rugby, which will again benefit the game overall.

Will parents switch their Children to play Rugby at Harlequin Amateurs because of the shirt and the name? Possibly if the club that they are currently at has poor amenities and are stretched in terms of capacity. Personally speaking as a father with a 7 year old playng mini's at Richmond I will not be moving him unless he has a desire to do so (which he hasn't, I've already asked, but then again he supports Wasps!).

Should Harlequin Amateurs be allowed to wear the quartered shirts? Of course they should, they'll be part of the Harlequin Amateurs Club. Other clubs with amateur sides such as Wasps and Saracens have the same advantage. But as stated before if your child is happy at his current club, playing with a bunch of his friends and enjoying his Rugby then why change.

budge, you will have no problems recruiting youngsters at that age, however ask coaches from other clubs about the drop off when the child reaches 12..It is enormous.Harlequins minis have to have objectives before they start out .do they solely want mini rugby or do they want to go on to produce competetive youth teams.If you look at the other GP "mini teams" they generally concentrate there time and money on the youth set up rather than mini rugby.I am talking about London Irish, Wasps ,Sarecens and particularily London Scottish.All of these clubs compete at the highest level in the herts/middlesex league set up at youth standard, but do not set the heather alight at mini rugby ( yes there are some exceptions)
Ask coaches from those clubs and others , like twickenham, Teddington Wimbledon etc how difficult it is to maintain a youth squad .In my opinion as a neutral non affiliated ex coach ,is that there are ample good quality sides in Middlesex for children to choose from , and to form another would be detrimental to the developement of youth rugby

Bish

Budge - what you say makes sense to me

on on quins

Budge

Re Facilities: many existing have excellent ones but St mary's will never be a Quins club/clubhouse.

Re Coaches: most if not all coaches have at least level one and many have higher. Plus experience.

Re Student opportunities; as they would have at any existing club to which they offer their services. Happens already.And they are welcomed. But the existing clubs have a long-term coaching set-up.And the students could learn from existing experienced coaches.

Re Enjoyment: As if current youngsters who support Quins do not enjoy their rugby at existing clubs. Most like the game not the name.

Re possible poor amenities: Will the parents have access to bars etc at St Mary's? Will it have a 'friendly' feeling of belonging?

In essence, as you already know, everything you mention is already there. Shame on those who would only seek out a club because of its name! If parents were serious about their kids joining this great game then they would seek out a suitable club from the loads that have built up the expertise over many years. Not a 'flash in the pan' built upon the rather tenuous link with a GP side.

Quote:

kevin
Budge
Re Facilities: many existing have excellent ones but St mary's will never be a Quins club/clubhouse.

Re Coaches: most if not all coaches have at least level one and many have higher. Plus experience.

Re Student opportunities; as they would have at any existing club to which they offer their services. Happens already.And they are welcomed. But the existing clubs have a long-term coaching set-up.And the students could learn from existing experienced coaches.

Re Enjoyment: As if current youngsters who support Quins do not enjoy their rugby at existing clubs. Most like the game not the name.

Re possible poor amenities: Will the parents have access to bars etc at St Mary's? Will it have a 'friendly' feeling of belonging?

In essence, as you already know, everything you mention is already there. Shame on those who would only seek out a club because of its name! If parents were serious about their kids joining this great game then they would seek out a suitable club from the loads that have built up the expertise over many years. Not a 'flash in the pan' built upon the rather tenuous link with a GP side.

Then you'll have nothing to worry about then

Posey quin

Quins Amateurs are a team rather than a club. You obviously have a connection and deliberately fail to address concerns that clubs face, confront and address. The Quins scheme will hopefully not get off the ground.Enthusiastic children being coached by a bunch of students who have never coached before. Whatever next!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:15:23:04:16 by kevin.

I can see arguments for and against a Quins mini rugby. I know its badged as Ams, but the name and the shirt mean everything. This is a very sensitive subject and one that should be debated. Both sides have put forward their arguments very well.

Congratulations to the board and its posters.

I hope those that are putting this proposal forward recognise this subject is sensitive and propose a fuller debate with the Club, the Community team and other local clubs who will be affected if this goes forward.

Quote:

kevin
Posey quin
Quins Amateurs are a team rather than a club. You obviously have a connection and deliberately fail to address concerns that clubs face, confront and address. The Quins scheme will hopefully not get off the ground.Enthusiastic children being coached by a bunch of students who have never coached before. Whatever next!

Good attempt at spelling the name - its a difficult one isnt it.

Quins Ams are a club that has managed to put 4 teams out on occasions this season.

Its disappointing that you want other people to fail at things that might make a positive contribution.

Existing youth/mini setups had to start somewhere, and coaches have to start somewhere. If the facilities that the Ams provide are lesser than those existing, then other clubs shouldnt be too badly affected. If they are better then they deserve to prosper.

Time will tell.

I guess the difference is that to me the glass is half full, for you it always seems to be half empty.

if ever an example of why we dont need another junior set up in the area is needed, just look at the herts/middlesex junior leagues u14's.Teddington u14's were national champions winning the tournament at Hq.,.4 years later they have pulled out of the league....i rest my case

Wow - this subject seems too difficult.

- I hadnt realized that I had to understand the politics and structure of rugby in SW London before thinking about my son playing mini rugby.
- I thought it was about having a bit of fun.

At this age group I dont want to know about national leagues or champions - far too much pressure at a young age - and not a lot of fun if you fail.
Far too aggressive - my personal advice would be not to do it at mini level.

Failure is much harder to cope with at such a young age.

Playing for the school is one thing - the value of playing a National anonymous competition is questionable at this age.

- as for the Teddington U14 success and then lack of it, its hard to see what that has got to do with the discussion.

However, is an implication that parents live their lack of rugby experience through their children ?

My conclusion at this point is that I am not interested in National Mini Comp but i am interested in the kids having fun - are the two things co joined and inseperable or can the kids have fun without so much being expected of them ?
The only boy who i know who has progressed significantly through mini rugby, is Josh Lewsey ( his father played for one of my teams in a previous life, at a club i would go back to for the mini rugby except that its too far away )
So if the Quins Am can offer fun - they would get my vote - if they focus on National Success - they wont.

Its possible we could have as much fun playing rugby in the garden for the next few years.

on on quins

I only meant to say -

No Fun, No Kids

on on quins

Let’s deal in facts not fantasy!.

Harlequin Amateurs are a Rugby Club, fully constituted with the RFU, a member of Middx CRFU, recently merged with Lockside RFC (who provided 50 plus minis to Teddington when Antlers formed minis only as a result of Lockside not being able to hold onto them as Shell sold our grounds) - so we have a history of having minis in the past. Lockside (Lensbury RFC) were formed in 1920 so no flash in the pan!

We have cleared ourselves to start mini rugby with the RFU (very very helpful), we have discussed mini rugby with Quins FC to see if we can have the same link as afforded to other mini rugby clubs - answer yes (no specials favours sought or offered).

We have a great relationship with St. Mary's who have a large rugby fraternity (many players play at Ealing, Teddington, London irish and for Harlequin Amateurs), many of the students are going on to teaching careers and having direct experience with kids and coaching is fantastic on their cv, they have their RFU Level 1 as a minimum before they start coaching our minis, we are committed to develop more level 1's and above from the ranks of parents, amateur players and students. All our budget is being put into coaching / referee education and equipment for the kids. This has to be good for the sport of rugby - if it's bad then I am flabbergasted.

Either kids will come or they won't!

If the kids come they will have a great experience, we have experienced Mums / Dads from other clubs who have become disillusioned with other clubs (promising great facilities which in reality are not very good), we have Dads who play for us who are at other clubs to this point as we didn't have minis, they are delighted to be able to have their kids come and play for their own club (except my best mate Budge!)

All I know for sure, is that many people in our club and at St. Mary's are totally committed to starting up this venture, most of the comments on this forum are positive or provide valuable advice because people have seen it go wrong at other clubs. We will be sucessful and we will have lots of fun!

If anybody wants to discuss further or give positive help, my contact details are on www.harlequinrugby.co.uk

Cheers
Andy Brampton - club secretary

Quote:

kevin
Bloody awful development!... Sad day!... Hope it fails... Do I sound angry? You bet I am!

Blimey Kevin - I think you need to take some happy pills mate. We're talking about mini rugby - children aged 6 to 12. Why shouldn't Harlequin Amatuers try to set up their own Minis? Do you have some sort of vested interest, because you sound very angry?

Surely expanding the game to a wider audience is good for all concerned with rugby? Let's try to keep all this in perspective!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:16:12:33:07 by QUINS1.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:16:13:49:11 by Budge.

Interesting to read all these comments, and I'm pleased to see the Andy (from Quins Ams) discussing thoughtfully.

Here's my thoughts after some consideration

- youth/mini rugby is very stong in SW London - there are many, many clubs in existence with a great deal of variety of ethos / facilities / culture / and standards. There really is something to suit every child.

- certainly there is absolutely no shortage of opportunity for children living around Teddington/Twickenham of any standard to play rugby in a suitable existing quins-linked (or LI-linked) club, close to their home.

- beyond tag (ie U9 up) almost all of these clubs, at almost all age groups will tell you they could do with 4-5 more players. EG Middlesex U12 (my age group) there are 16 A-Teams in the Middx championship but only 7 B-Teams, with multiple clubs initially entering a B, but having to pull out because of having not quite enough players.

So there's no way that a new and additional club in this area of SW London can in any way be portrayed as meeting any sort of unmet need. [A new club in Wansworth, mind, where Batterseas Ironsides and Old Alleynians have so many players they are turning them away, that wd be different]

- talk of facilities, coaches, etc is a red herring: the ONLY thing that Quins Ams can offer that a 10 year old of any standard/level and ambition couldn't already find at an existing club with two miles of St Mary's is the Quins shirt.

- However, having said that: it's a free country - Quins Ams have every right to have a go at youth rugby if they want to.

- They may succeed, they may not - as everyone invovled in minis will know, it's hard work. Teddington (not my club) didn't get where they are today by accident. Certainly the shirt won't be enough.

There are two ways that Quins can succeed
1) Attract entirely new kids to the game. This would be marvelous. A win-win. The one thing that might make this possible is the shirt. However I'm dubious that the shirt alone will make non-players into players.

2) Attract players from other clubs. Well it's a free country. If they can do it better than other clubs, well I suppose they are free to do so.


There's two things I'd really expect/hope to happen

1) For Quins to treat the Ams in the same way as they treat other clubs. This means, particularly NOT featuring Quins Minis in the programme every week. I thnik that would be a shame after all Quins have doen for the game as whole.

2) For Quins Ams, if they are successful, to think carefully about the good of rugby generally which means as many healthy clubs as possible, playing local games against eachother. I'd hate for them to become one of those club with fixture-less C teams made up of players who could be enjoying regular match-time somewhere else or even (worse of all) - a waiting list! with boys who want to play rugby encouraged to sit at home on a Sunday rather than go and PLAY at a club down the road.

My son played for Teddington until from 5 until he was 13, and I was involved on the admin side. Kwin is correct, all local clubs struggle to find enough players from U12 / U13 upwards. Partly players gravitate towards the prestigious clubs - LI. LW, Wasps (some of whom actively recruit according to rumouor), partly they end up playing so much rugby at school that they can't face another match on a Sunday, and their schools discourage them as well. I can't see where Quin's Ams are going to find new players in this age range. Traditionally too, local clubs have respected other clubs recruitment patches (and I admit Teddington upset some local clubs early on when they were starting up). All the local schools have strong links with one or more local clubs. Quins Ams will find it hard to break in, unless they play the Quins link. Oh, and if you don't think U12 or U13 rugby is physical, you haven't watched it, seen the commitment, the strength and the skill that is involved, whether the player is developmentally a boy, or a small adult.

TeddyQuin2 - you high light all the issues very well.
- and they are all impossible to resolve.
All the clubs can do is plug away until the individuals give up - normally because their own kids move on or lose interest.

- If wants to my 10 year old will play club mini until he plays full time at school - then he will not play for a club until he leaves school or university.
- by then its up to him any way.
- but if its not fun its not any thing and they will back off

on on quins

First time poster here, drawn to the subject as an under-10s coach at one of the more distant local clubs mentioned in the posts already. The points that need to be reinforced are:
1) this is Minis only (so far), Under-7s to Under-12s. Participation dives from this point, due to the demands of schools for both team participation and homework loads (and departures to boarding school!). It's a vicious circle, as the fewer teams that play in any age group, the further you have to go for a game. Our Under 13s play in a League that takes them as far afield as Bedford, making for six hours out of their Sunday, when most have already played for their school on Saturday. What this might do to other Under 14 teams, or the prospects of this forming a direct pipeline of players rather than another affinity connection to the senior club are irrelevant.
2) Whatever the problems at youth level, Minis Rugby is booming, and can support another team. Our own intake has ticked up from 25-30 at Under 7s to nearer 40, to the point where we will have to turn away players. We have been around for only ten years at Mini level. Competing with the glamour of the Harlequins brand may be tough on Teddington, but they get 60+ players (I believe). Some players and parents may prefer the brand, others may appreciate getting in early where their boys can play in a smaller group. I feel more sorry for struggling smaller clubs like Staines, Twickenham, London Scottish, that struggle to find twenty players in a year group and might need the link to a more grass-roots adult club, but they are already in the shadow of Teddington etc. What are they doing wrong?
3) The Halo effect is real, but doesn't seem to affect the rest much. Ealing is the powerhouse of Middlesex Mini Rugby, above even Teddington, but they do not seem to have been affected by the rise of Wasps, about two miles away in Acton. Wasps got into Minis less than four years ago, and are already drawing 40-50 a year. I would suggest most are new players/families, not transferees. Wimbledon has plenty of minis clubs, but is getting a new one. Even parents who care nothing for top-level rugby like to bring their kids to play a game without other adults effing and blinding on the touchline.
In summary, bad for the local institutions perhaps, but net positive for the game, let alone the clubs. The club connections will help the new venture, but it will only succeed if kids want to turn up, and dads want to coach them, to a more enjoyable and inventive level than what else is available. Let a thousand flowers bloom! Let a hundred schools of philosophy contend!

Well, said Mr Sheen !

- If I were to here one eff or blind from any parent on the touch line i would have my son off the field immediately.
I have heard stories of over aggressive parents on the touchline.
- That type of behavior can only be combated by instant withdrawal of the players

on on quins

Well..You'd better make sure his team doesn't play S@*!*s then!

- any efing and blinding and i would be gone - leave that to the round ball merchants - if Mini Rugby is like that I really would not be interested.
- i would definitely leave the junior rugby to the school - discipline is everything at this age

on on quins

Mr Sheen i really must pick you up on one of your "factual points"

quote "Wasps got into Minis less than four years ago, and are already drawing 40-50 a year."

My 16 year old son played against wasps in the middlesex b festival 9 years go at Twickenham rugby club..May i be as bold as to suggest that you may have got your facts slightly wrong?

Hi Mr Sheen

Which one of the more distant local clubs mentioned are you from?

Quote:

rodders1
- any efing and blinding and i would be gone - leave that to the round ball merchants - if Mini Rugby is like that I really would not be interested.
- i would definitely leave the junior rugby to the school - discipline is everything at this age

Rodders this is very easy to control in rugby .You send the parent/ coach from the field of play.I have done this whilst referring on several occasions and it has worked every time.You tend to find that supporters only become vociferous when they see the coach/coaches shouting at the players, it is natural.Most clubs these days run codes of practice and issue statements of expectations to players/ parents.
Can i point out though that one of the most loyal and dedicated supporters of youth rugby is our very own Kevin , who has seen rugby at different levels/clubs over the past decade and his comments should not be taken lightly.

I certainly have made no negative assumptions about Kevin - not for one moment - i am sure that we will meet and have a very happy beer in the natural course of events within Quins - in fact I look forward to it.

I recognised that he has very strong feelings about this subject and I gathered that he has devoted a great deal of time and effort to the growth of mini and junior rugby.

i have not had that same experience and as I don't live in the SW locality i am not sensitive to the more local sensibilities.

... but I am delighted to hear that positive action has and is taken to minimise or negate bad behaviour - particularly from parents !!
I have a genuine zero tolerance of bad behaviour and language around young children - rugby does not need it.
Kevin, your smiley came out as SM 59 on my Mac - so i cant share the Joke !!

on on quins

Yes, I am doubtful about the impact on the game of of clubs with 50-60 players in a year group. It's fine at U7s when they can all have a good time playing each other, but higher up the age range it's not good for the sport.

We (Twickenham) recently played a club with four U12 teams (!). The coaches remarked that their D team get very few fixtures. I am not surprised - As a contrast I think that even the two supposed 'giants' of Middx (Ealing and Teddington) are fielding only 2 teams at U12, same as everyone else.

It seems to me that any one in an U12 D team would be much better off being encourged to play B team rugby for other clubs.

And here's the rub: I have no doubt that if Quins put their offcial weight and money behind Quins Ams minis, they will also have D teams at every age group. Club loyalty is high, but if Danny Care and Dave Strettle did a training session once a season hundreds of excited 10 years olds would be understandably interested. And that wouldn't be good for the game.

Kwuin - fair comment - but i dont think the intension is to treat the Quins Am any differently to other local clubs - other than the natural affinity of the name and shirt
- as you say a disproportionate number of 10 year olds would mean a large number of little boys not getting a game
- out of interest - how often do players visit local mini clubs?

on on quins

rodders1, I don't think they ever do - which is as it should be - mini-rugby is about playing rugby, not about being a fan. (Harley Bear's club caters for that)

Dave Strettle did an excellent job at last years' Middx Championships presenting prizes posing for photos and signing autographs (and very popular he was, too!)

Players are present at the Quins Training Days (do they still do those, can't remember the last one) and no doubt you'll see one or two at the final of the ratt cup.

BISH - I stand corrected. I heard that about Wasps from someone at the Club, I must have got it wrong. But they definitely have momentum in player numbers.
Effing and Blinding is not a problem in Mini Rugby. I meant to argue that a lot of our parents had no interest in Rugby themselves, but preferred their kids to play it rather than football. I would reckon only about 5 of our 30 active boys have ever been to a live (quins) game, and the majority don't even watch on TV. As a Mini Rugby occasional ref, there is a bit of a problem with spectator sarcasm, but any angry outbursts are usually apologised for instantly afterwards. I had an Under-10 player actually call another a b*st*rd for tackling him off the ball this year, a first for me, and his coach was mortified by his behaviour.
Totally agree about the mega-clubs. The coaching is great, but how much responsible playing time do they get? We went to a festival at Teddington last year and they fielded five squads.
As for my club, my name is a bit of a give-away. Clue, it's not R*sslyn P*rk...

Quote:

kwin
IMO The last thing that we need in our patch of SW London is another mini-rugby club.
Accepting that the Ams are separate from the Offy club, what I expect the Offy club to do is to simply treat Quins Ams exactly the same way as the other 40 clubs affiliated. I hope we don't see Quins Ams minis able to advertise in the programme, or to providing mascots, or playing display games or having a 'special link' etc etc. Some existing mini clubs have worked long and hard with the Quins communuity team to help the Quins programme be a success, and they deserve support now.

Seems your prediction/fear was right Kwin. Please see page 71 of yesterday's Big Match programme.

Having been involved with a large South west London Club (Teddington) for the last eleven years from U7 to U17 I say good luck to Harlequins Amatuers. I Hope you are successful and provide Rugby to even more young people.

Inspired by the Leadership of Hazlemere Rugby who wore the Harlequin on their Junior and Mini Shirts I negotiated the same for Teddington. Harlequins were very clear then that they would not pin their colours to any one shirt. They would rather harbour a community inclusiveness and broaden their marketing fan base.

As a Quins fan I felt that this made good sense both in terms of Rugby Development for young people and the success of the club commercially. I along with others (Bish) gave up every Saturday coaching and acting as referee for the excellent match day community programme. This brought together all the affilliated Quins Clubs under one umbrella and provided an excellent experience for the young people.

I am confident that Quins have extended their welcome to the Amateur Club and rightly so. What is important is that Quins Amateurs is not seen as an extension of Quins but another Mini/Junior Club equally afiliated. This is important for Quins in terms of their marketing. If other Clubs feel a biase towards the Quins amateurs it could impact on match day sales and the broadening fan base. It is also important in terms of the continued success of the mutually supportive network of Quins affiliated Clubs.

What is also imporatant is that the quins affiliated Clubs who have shared good practice amongst themselves particuarly in developing very high child protection policies and exceptionally high coaching standards share continue to share the good practice that has grown up in Rugby in South West London.

Quins amateurs I wish you good luck, getting everybody child protection checked and coaching and first aid trained is not an easy task. However when working with young people these are the minimum standards and achieveing them will be difficult. I dont envy you but wish you every success.

Bish one correction for you the current Teddington under 14's were not national champions. They won the Gullivers Nottingham Festival this is not a National event in fact no such event exists for young people in Rugby

Peter
Thankyou for those kind words of support.
There have been some who have welcomed the minis section and some who have not.
But I think one thing All clubs in the local area should concider is this there are still schools in SW london that still have no form of rugby on their sports curriculum.
With many of the moans being about losing players a new club with a famous shirt there is still a huge untapped well of talent out there for all.
As a U14 Coach at Sutton & Epsom this is one thing we have always encouraged bring your friends along who have never played the game. It works 2 of the brightestlads who will hopefully make it though to Surrey squad next year. Prior to coming to S+E they had never played any rugby.
It's something I know the guys will be aiming for as they move forward with this new venture.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:30:10:55:21 by Dave Picken.

Kevin
I have no idea which local club you coach at or are affiliated to, you have not made that clear to my knowledge.
What seems to be your opinion of me as a person, now seems to do cloud your judgement.
You highlight the words [/...2 coloured lads... .]in a sarcastic way to what end?
The sport we both enjoy, unfortunately still has a reputation as a white middle class sport.
The two boys I mentioned are part of that untapped well.
SW london Starts in Lambeth. Offering Boys from ethnic minorities in Inner London Boroughs the chance to play rugby must be the way forward and as there really are not that many inner london clubs south of the river surely it is our duty to enhance the sport at grass roots level.
As someone who has coached mini/midi and junior rugby for many years, I do have some Idea of how many players from ethnic minorities are playing at clubs in the SW london area, Middlesex and Surrey. Through festivals and now the leagues.This is something all clubs can work together on.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:30:12:30:31 by Dave Picken.

hello the thread is back minus all today's comments,,,how bizarre

Inner London kids are more likely to play League than Union these days. State Schools won't risk teaching Union because of the perceived dangers of the scrum and the complexity of the rules. A lot of the parents at our club weren't happy about taking their fancy cars to places like Mitcham, and the fixture was dropped, indicative of the lack of support from the suburbs. League is going for broke as the "second" sport in the mostly untouched Rugby territory of inner London in the hope of persuading sponsors that they have a national rather than regional game. Good reasons for the Union-League link at Harlequins benefitting both sides, unless your fear the "wrong sort" getting too interested.