I would be interested to know how many people regularly turn up at Sardis Road for matches since the invention of regions and how they compare to other WP clubs? and what the professional clubs were getting up to 2002.


I don't think fans like the ones that make these Ponty shirts matter, I havent seen anyone wear this stuff when ive been up there,i think they are in a minority.

I believe the fanbase as always will primarily come from within the City limits as it has since time immemorial.These are the people we need to reach out to.There are enough of them to make the club financially strong

Cardiff RFC has always attracted a sizablee following from the Rhondda valley / Pontypridd area. I doubt this cosmetic exersize will change the attitude of those wh odo not see themselves as "regional" / "Cardiff" supporters. They support Ponty and why should they not?

Will any new support outweigh the exodus? Time will tell.

By the way we are still waiting for the suporting evidence to say this move is good.

They can't lose the Cardiff bit of the name.

Too many clubs outside of Wales are associated we the name 'Blues'.

I think too many people on here use this as a scare tactic.


Cardiff Blues are the professional rugby side that represents Cardiff and the surrounding area.


It doesn't matter who they are owned by.

I'm kind of half and half on whether the Cardiff Blues are a new team - they were a new entity four/five years ago but derived from a side that had over 120 years of history.


Once Thomas made the decision to go to Ridsdale Park - it was always going to happen. Not matter what the supporters felt. I would prefer to stay at the Arms Park.


But I will continue to support the team at Ridsdale Park - they may of adjusted the name slightly, changed the colours and moved to a different ground - but it is still the professional rugby side that will be representing Cardiff in the Heinekein Cup etc. and I'll be there.

Come on Cardiff!!! Come on the Blues!!!!

Without doubt when the Cardiff bit falls I stop my support. That is without question.

The point is once we move Thomas can do what he likes the Cardiff in Cardiff Blues will follow.

I think me and SA/Cardiff Boo's have finally found something we agree on!

Just can't see Cardiff being removed.

Our ground will still be in Cardiff, playing in the City of Cardiff stadium and sharing (sorry renting 18 days) it with Cardiff City Football club.

You can't really get much more Cardiff than that.

Too many sides in the UK can be identified by the use of the word Blues.

In the local media, we will be referred to as the Blues - local side, local context.

In the London based media, they will continue to refer to us as Cardiff Blues.

Also, has Thomas ever said that he would like to remove Cardiff from the name?

Not in words. Remember actions seak louder than words!

Quote:

S A Brained
Not in words. Remember actions seak louder than words!

SA. The Great Pieman and his Cronies had an opportunity to drop 'Cardiff' from the Blues when we first went regional. They didn't. What would be his motive for dropping it now or at some future point?

I'm just very sceptical about conspiracy theories in relation to plans to drop the 'Cardiff' from the Regional name. I can't see it ever happening. It would be commercial suicide in my view.

Quote:

Blues Boy

Quote:

S A Brained
Not in words. Remember actions seak louder than words!

SA. The Great Pieman and his Cronies had an opportunity to drop 'Cardiff' from the Blues when we first went regional. They didn't. What would be his motive for dropping it now or at some future point?

I'm just very sceptical about conspiracy theories in relation to plans to drop the 'Cardiff' from the Regional name. I can't see it ever happening. It would be commercial suicide in my view.

Well not really, when we turned regional, we were still sticking to CAC rules that a side who plays there must eb named cardiff and must wear Blue and Black. One of those rules has already been broken, and we haven't even left yet. I'm not saying he definately will, but there's no reason why he wouldn't if he thought it would help the business make more money.

Admin of theArmsPark.co.uk,
Make Noise and You Will Be Heard!

I think PT has categorically stated in the past that dropping 'Cardiff' from the club name is a non-starter.

I think even he would realise that the loss of this world-renowned moniker in rugby circles could be a disaster.

Personally, i feel that the 'Cardiff Blues' now have an identity that Cardiff Rugby fans can relate to, but also enough of a seperate identity from the Cardiff RFC club side to attract fans from within the city and the wider area.

-----
Cymru am Byth...

It would have been suicide to drop the Cardiff Bit back in 2003.But when the club divorces itself from Cardiff RFC? We will see.

Watch Thomas at the ground to see which name he calls out. The one that sits easier on his shoulders!

I agree with Rust.

Cardiff Blues have a very strong well established brand - I'll stick my neck out and say that it's going to stay that way for a long time yet, regardless of what happens with the Rags. I really can't see PT getting rid of the 'Cardiff' in the name.

There's no doubt however that the marketing team is going to have their work cut out in putting bums on seats at Stade de Ridsdale. They might even have to visit Ponty (with a police escort of course) handing out leaflets and offering incentives.

The pressurewill come on from the WRU and eentually the name will (in my opinion) change. At the moment all regions must be owned by clubs but that is likely to amended wit hthe new PA. the change of ownership of the Cardiff BLues that will follow as PT "buys out" the CRFC ltd interest in the Cardiff BLues will probably lead to the change of name.

Not sure I follow you here, SA.

1. What pressure will PT be under from WRU and why?
2. When has PT ever listened to WRU?
3. What is the new PA?
4. At the moment, PT himself is a minority shareholder in CRFC Ltd and although it seems he has had some influence in persuading his fellow shareholders to vote for certain courses of action, this is no guarantee that he will get his way each and every time. With CAC still owning a substantial chunk of the shares in CRFC Ltd maybe that is our trump card - influence the other shareholders of our concerns and maybe, just maybe, we can keep this guy in check.
5. I come back to what I have said earlier, Cardiff Blues have a very strong brand, and to change would be like asking Marks and Spencer to change their name. I just can't see it.

Not sure I follow you here, SA.

1. What pressure will PT be under from WRU and why?
WRU are keen to move the concept of regions up a notch or ten, part of that is the naming issues that dog supporters opinions
2. When has PT ever listened to WRU?
PT & DP are very big mates it is believed that a change in the PA will allow for a more adaptive(sic) approach to marketing the pro game
3. What is the new PA?
At present we just don't know. But to date all information that has been "shared" seems to indicate a move from CLUB owned franchises to a FREE ECONOMY (IE any company or individual may own/run a region) in exchange for this a more fluid approach to "foreign" players and a new sub structure to support Pro rugby
4. At the moment, PT himself is a minority shareholder in CRFC Ltd and although it seems he has had some influence in persuading his fellow shareholders to vote for certain courses of action, this is no guarantee that he will get his way each and every time. With CAC still owning a substantial chunk of the shares in CRFC Ltd maybe that is our trump card - influence the other shareholders of our concerns and maybe, just maybe, we can keep this guy in check.
PT can in no way be considered a minority shareholder he owns 1,062,00 shares, his partners hold close on another 1,000,00 shares, CAC holds 1,250,001 shares, the rest of the shareholders seem to be a mixture of apathetic or confused. PT is the ony person to have loaned or underwritten the Ltd. Co to any substantial level. Leaving the situation that what he wants he (at present) gets! You would need not only to work very hard to change this situation, but garner sufficient funds, will and of course personell to succed
5. I come back to what I have said earlier, Cardiff Blues have a very strong brand, and to change would be like asking Marks and Spencer to change their name. I just can't see it.
You would think so wouldn't you indeed. But PT has a completely different agenda that it seems does not include history or heritage, he is successful because of:
The compliance of CAC
The compliance of the media
The apathy of supporters to date to do other than moan
The complicity of the WRU - forget the rebel years, long, gone now.
If PT believes that:
Changing the structure of the holding Co. (A new one. a buy out - whichever is best for him.
The dropping of Cardiff from the title
He will do it.
Surely every one sees that the cream of all this is the CAP as a development site and of all parties that are or may become involved in that scenario then PT and his companies and associates are in prole postition:
They know ALL the neccessary details, including
CAC position
WRU position
CCC postion
Companies willing and able to run project
Uefa postion
Financing - in place already
Plans for site already drawn up
Sorry mate but to think this is just a rugby thing is as far removed from reality as it is possible to be.
RIP cardiff RFC
Born 1876
passed away 1995
Buried 20??

I think that the last post sums it up well!

Yup, a heathly but sad dose of reality.

Admin of theArmsPark.co.uk,
Make Noise and You Will Be Heard!

I'll believe in conspiracy theories when I find out that the moon landings were faked, that the Duke of Edinburgh was on a moped behind Pricess Di, and when it is announced that my missus has been killed and replaced by a 3-headed pedantic haggis eating aberdeen angus-alike (or her mother, whichever is true). Until I hear anything concrete other than stuff on the rumour mill, I'm inclined to beleive that 'Cardiff' will not be removed from the title.

My take on this is that: I'm from Cardiff; I like rugby. Therefore, I'll support the prime rugby team in Cardiff no matter what they're called or where they play. Call me insensitive, but it really is that simple for me.

Quote:

theArmsPark.co.uk Admin
Yup, a heathly but sad dose of reality.

A healthy dose of REALITY ?. I don't think so. Following on from the points I have raised earlier:

1. There is NO evidence to suggest Cardiff Blues will change their name to anything else not containing the Cardiff name. It would be commercial suicide to rebrand without Cardiff being in the title somewhere. Do you know anything I don't?
2. This issue goes way beyond PT being 'mates' with DP. Come on , get real.
3. We'll have to see what happens , I guess.
4. Thomas IS a minority shareholder - he does not hold the majority shareholding (he holds a minority of the shares) but clearly has the support of his fellow shareholders. As I have said, convince his fellow shareholders of the error of his ways and it is possible to hold him back.
5. Scaremongering. Most of what has been quoted seems based on assumptions and theory rather than fact. Do you know anything I don't?

Commercial suicide eh? Well, given the move to being a tenant of CCFC at Leckwith, the Blues have got form on that one.

Quote:

Reservoir Prop
Commercial suicide eh? Well, given the move to being a tenant of CCFC at Leckwith, the Blues have got form on that one.

Form? That suggests the move to Leckwith is/has been a disaster. Not yet proven. We are still at least two seasons away from establishing whether or not the move is good, bad or indifferent.

Quote:

Blues Boy

Quote:

Reservoir Prop
Commercial suicide eh? Well, given the move to being a tenant of CCFC at Leckwith, the Blues have got form on that one.

Form? That suggests the move to Leckwith is/has been a disaster. Not yet proven. We are still at least two seasons away from establishing whether or not the move is good, bad or indifferent.

You're going to struggle with that way of thinking. You'll never be able to compare the difference between 65 grand per game x 18 matches a season x 20 years' worth of investment in CAP vs giving money to the soul crew.

To me, it's a no brainer.

(Just for the record, that's 23.4m pounds that CRFC Ltd are going to give Risdale over the next 20 years - index linked. Now the club could spend that money on redeveloping a city centre asset that they would at least part own. How can anyone argue that the Risdale option is better?)

I've been a Neath supporter for 30 years and a dual Neath and Ospreys supporter and season ticket holder for 5 years. You can't get too much of a good thing! Do not underestimate the pulling power of your new stadium which is starting to look fantastic. Forget the name and get behind your team. Gjneath

To me, it's a no brainer.

(Just for the record, that's 23.4m pounds that CRFC Ltd are going to give Risdale over the next 20 years - index linked. Now the club could spend that money on redeveloping a city centre asset that they would at least part own. How can anyone argue that the Risdale option is better?)[/quote]

I take your point,but have you given any thought to the maths involved in developing an alternative CAP?

To keep it simple, let's assume there is agreement with CAC that CAP can be demolished and a new stadium built in it's place. On the basis that the Blues' new stadium will be similar to Liberty and/or Parc y Scarlets (or whatever) then I can't see much change out of £30million - and that wouldn't include the cost of buying the freehold from CAC either.To borrow £30m over 20 years at 6.5% would cost the Blues £226,890 PER MONTH, and £54,453,000 over 20 years (yes, £54m).

So, interest charges over 20 years amount to £24,453,000. And what are you left with after 20 years? A stadium that is 20 years old and probably beginning to look tired and in need of refurbishment. And don't forget, there is no ready market in sales of second hand sporting stadia so it is anyone's guess what the market value of the stadium will be in 20 years' time.

Paying rent doesn't look bad now in comparison, does it?

Just looked at the [www.cardiffcitystadium.co.uk]

The new ground is starting to look impressive.

At the bottom of the home page there are two equally size buttons to take you to either the Cardiff Blues site or the Cardiff City site - it's nice to see that both clubs are actively being linked to the stadium.

[quote Blues Boy]To me, it's a no brainer.

(Just for the record, that's 23.4m pounds that CRFC Ltd are going to give Risdale over the next 20 years - index linked. Now the club could spend that money on redeveloping a city centre asset that they would at least part own. How can anyone argue that the Risdale option is better?)[/quote]

I take your point,but have you given any thought to the maths involved in developing an alternative CAP?

To keep it simple, let's assume there is agreement with CAC that CAP can be demolished and a new stadium built in it's place. On the basis that the Blues' new stadium will be similar to Liberty and/or Parc y Scarlets (or whatever) then I can't see much change out of £30million - and that wouldn't include the cost of buying the freehold from CAC either.To borrow £30m over 20 years at 6.5% would cost the Blues £226,890 PER MONTH, and £54,453,000 over 20 years (yes, £54m).

So, interest charges over 20 years amount to £24,453,000. And what are you left with after 20 years? A stadium that is 20 years old and probably beginning to look tired and in need of refurbishment. And don't forget, there is no ready market in sales of second hand sporting stadia so it is anyone's guess what the market value of the stadium will be in 20 years' time.

Paying rent doesn't look bad now in comparison, does it?[/quote]

1: You are ignoring the index linking of the rent. The actual figure will be higher.

2: Of course the cost will be higher t oown but why do people seek to buy their own homes rather than rent? Why are Cardiff City buying rather than renting?

3: CAC could invest some / all of the proceeds of the sale of CAP to any new stadium that is on a different site to CAP. This would allow other shareholders to increase their investment in the club ans SH percentages could be maintained.
4: The freehold need not be bought from CAC as they are the major shareholders in CRFC Ltd anyway. It could be part of their investment in the club allowing others to invest more. as in point 3.
5: Don't forget that CRFC ltd will, after the move have the same ownership as now with the same covenants and restrictions.
6: in 20 years or so when an new CAP / Alternative ground needs changing CAP / the site will have a commercial value for developing. The SDR will have a development value. The difference be ween the first 2 and the SDR? From the SDR we get nothing as we will only be renting!

Quote:

S A Brained

Quote:

Blues Boy
Paying rent doesn't look bad now in comparison, does it?

1: You are ignoring the index linking of the rent. The actual figure will be higher.

2: Of course the cost will be higher t oown but why do people seek to buy their own homes rather than rent? Why are Cardiff City buying rather than renting?

3: CAC could invest some / all of the proceeds of the sale of CAP to any new stadium that is on a different site to CAP. This would allow other shareholders to increase their investment in the club ans SH percentages could be maintained.
4: The freehold need not be bought from CAC as they are the major shareholders in CRFC Ltd anyway. It could be part of their investment in the club allowing others to invest more. as in point 3.
5: Don't forget that CRFC ltd will, after the move have the same ownership as now with the same covenants and restrictions.
6: in 20 years or so when an new CAP / Alternative ground needs changing CAP / the site will have a commercial value for developing. The SDR will have a development value. The difference be ween the first 2 and the SDR? From the SDR we get nothing as we will only be renting!

1. Yes, but the point I was trying to make was that the cost of borrowing such a large wadge of cash is not going to be cheap and will undoubtedly be a very heavy financial burden to what is essentially a sporting organisation. I am concerned that such a huge financial millstone would prevent money being made available for strengthening the squad and attracting big names to the club. In other words the cash is all tied up in bricks and mortar (or rather cement and steelwork ) rather than investing in players.

2. Commercial companies very often rent premises rather than buy for this very reason, ie spending their hard earned cash on making the business work well, rather than tying up capital in the building itself. Look around you - most of the office accomodation in Cardiff is rented out. People buy homes because we all now that historically they end up with an asset they can sell and use the cash for whatever. That is a totally different market to a stadium, where the only people who will buy are other people looking for a stadium. Not many, I suspect. Don't know why CCFC are buying. More money than sense, probably. Although with a reported £30m debt to think about, I don't pretend to know how they can sleep at night.

3.I don't think this would have a major impact - at best it would only be a small percentage. But I can't be sure, of course, but again my example was just to show that there is more to this than meets the eye.

4. See 3

5.Not sure what financial effect this has on matters.

6.This really is anyone's guess as to residual value. I am sure there are many factors mentioned in this thread which only just touch upon the financial issues which must be borne in mind when considering whether to fund a purchase of a new stadium or whether we rent and spend the money on players.

In summary, all I am trying to say is that yes, my ideal solution would be to redevelop CAP to bring it up to date as it has an almost perfect position in the city centre, but the reality is that in my view it would have proved almost impossible to achieve both practically and financially. I agree that the decision to move should have been accompanied by the sharing of the thought process involved in arriving at the decision as I am sure that some form of feasability study must have been undertaken before the decision was taken.

Anyway,I will be going to Leckwith, not because I think it a good move necessarily, but because I want to watch top class rugby being played by a team I have followed for many years. We all deserve nothing less than a side that can truly compete at the highest level in Europe. There can be no excuse for Peter Thomas & Co for not spending cash now on developing young players and bringing big names to the side. No capital expenditure on bricks and mortar equals more cash to spend on players and club development.

I'm done on this topic now. Hope to see you all in Leckwith, including you, SA. Give it a go. You might even like it.

Quote:

Blues Boy

1. Yes, but the point I was trying to make was that the cost of borrowing such a large wadge of cash is not going to be cheap and will undoubtedly be a very heavy financial burden to what is essentially a sporting organisation. I am concerned that such a huge financial millstone would prevent money being made available for strengthening the squad and attracting big names to the club. In other words the cash is all tied up in bricks and mortar (or rather cement and steelwork ) rather than investing in players.

2. Commercial companies very often rent premises rather than buy for this very reason, ie spending their hard earned cash on making the business work well, rather than tying up capital in the building itself. Look around you - most of the office accomodation in Cardiff is rented out. People buy homes because we all now that historically they end up with an asset they can sell and use the cash for whatever. That is a totally different market to a stadium, where the only people who will buy are other people looking for a stadium. Not many, I suspect. Don't know why CCFC are buying. More money than sense, probably. Although with a reported £30m debt to think about, I don't pretend to know how they can sleep at night.

3.I don't think this would have a major impact - at best it would only be a small percentage. But I can't be sure, of course, but again my example was just to show that there is more to this than meets the eye.

4. See 3

5.Not sure what financial effect this has on matters.

6.This really is anyone's guess as to residual value. I am sure there are many factors mentioned in this thread which only just touch upon the financial issues which must be borne in mind when considering whether to fund a purchase of a new stadium or whether we rent and spend the money on players.

In summary, all I am trying to say is that yes, my ideal solution would be to redevelop CAP to bring it up to date as it has an almost perfect position in the city centre, but the reality is that in my view it would have proved almost impossible to achieve both practically and financially. I agree that the decision to move should have been accompanied by the sharing of the thought process involved in arriving at the decision as I am sure that some form of feasability study must have been undertaken before the decision was taken.

Anyway,I will be going to Leckwith, not because I think it a good move necessarily, but because I want to watch top class rugby being played by a team I have followed for many years. We all deserve nothing less than a side that can truly compete at the highest level in Europe. There can be no excuse for Peter Thomas & Co for not spending cash now on developing young players and bringing big names to the side. No capital expenditure on bricks and mortar equals more cash to spend on players and club development.

I'm done on this topic now. Hope to see you all in Leckwith, including you, SA. Give it a go. You might even like it.

1; We will still be paying out the rent so what saving to spend on players is there?
2;You don't know why CCFC are buying. So you haven't looked into the full picture. why don't you ask them? Many companies lease for short term reasons and buy via loans for the long term this does not tie up capital at all. The monthly payment to the loan is akin to the monthly rent.
3; So an investment of say £10M to 20M from the sale proceeds of CAP would be unimportant? OK.
4; You made reference to buying the freehold I'm just saying than need not happen. If its not happening matters little then surely you point about buying it matters little also.
5; The CRFC Ltd company has a major shareholder who is also the freeholder. any investment into the company has to maintain their position and the ration of their investment to others. In short PT CANNOT invest more, other than by way of loan capital or guarantees. Do you actually know / understand the position re the shareholdings and heritage shares etc in CRFC Ltd?

How can PT invest more in the company, considering the restrictions on shareholdings?

Re the stadium. For me, with my present employment Leckwith is 20 mins too far for my end of shift times. So a season ticket is pointless unless I change jobs. So no you will not see me there. However, that does not change the argument about whether the idea of the move is right or wrong for the Club.