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Thoughts from the Chron 271108
By Chris Gleadell
November 27 2008
When I wrote in last weeks column that Saturdays game against table toppers Bath might be a lot closer than some outsiders might be predicting I did not think it would be quite that close! At half time it looked all so differently though as Bath scored a couple of tries that found us wanting defensively and they appeared to be running the show.

In discussion mulling over the half time pint there was a general agreement we were lucky the score was that close at the break but surely we would be in for a torrid second period.

Luckily the team were not thinking the same. I do not know what was said in the dressing or indeed what was put in the tea but second half the lads came out all guns blazing and took the game to Bath again and again and turned the game around to lead 28-21 at one stage before a late score from the visitors shared the spoils at 28 apiece.

The big question was though, was a draw a fair reflection on the game. The answer was probably no and not just from a Saints perspective. Even Bath coach Steve Meehan hinted that his side were lucky to get the draw and the controversy was over two ‘tries' that the Saints were not credited with.

I know referees cannot give tries on a crowd's reaction but certainly the way the corner erupted for James Downey's score you would have to say it was good as if there is ever a chance it was held up you get a more muted reaction. Tom Smith's was perhaps not so clear cut but Saints officials confirmed afterwards that their video of the game confirmed both were valid scores.

Therein lies the problem. Refs are on a hiding to nothing in these situations. Yes Mr Rose might be accused of bad positioning but he and his touch judges (I still can't get used to the moniker referees assistant) cannot always be the all seeing eyes we expect them to be while the advantage of video and especially the use slo-mo and freeze frame will nine times out of ten give you a more precise answer than a split second decision by a ref.

So if the technology is there why don't we use it? It is already used for games covered by television so why not all games at this level? Surely some laws for some games and not others makes a lopsided competition. I would argue that those clubs on television more often, and come season end it's the usual suspects year in year out, are more advantaged if they are a riding high attacking side (or disadvantaged if you are a lowly side defending against them) by the use of the video ref.  You might also argue that in the big scheme of things these things level themselves out as you win some you lose some on these decisions but that makes it even more of a lottery in my mind.

Were those tries, or just one of them, awarded on Saturday it would have meant three extra points for the Saints. By season end that could be a Heineken place gone begging, or in a worse case scenario relegation, and if you told me never mind its swings and roundabouts as the fifth try against Montpellier in a 50 point drubbing was not grounded (and don't look it up it is just an example and yes I know it was on television) then I would be none too happy.

So let's follow France's lead and make use of video for all top flight games.

Where peoples livelihoods are at stake perhaps every effort should be made to remove any doubt or the other hand putting someone in a position where they might wrongly give benefit of doubt when technology will give us a more precise answer.

BOOM BOOM

Another talking point of Saturday's game was Stephen Myler's 50 metre drop goal. I say 50 metres but just watch that distance increase as the story is retold over time. I am sure most of you will remember the monster kick from Nick Beal at Leicester a few years back, when winning at Welford Road was a regular habit, well that kick it seems went from 40 then 50,60, 70 metres out till at the last count Bealer's punt started somewhere west of Snowdonia.

But joking aside it's a good tool to have in your armour. Young Myler has slotted over a couple already this season and it might stop a few teams playing aerial ping pong with us knowing we have a player capable of slotting them over at distance.

Talking of aerial ping pong it is said it is a by-product of the Experimental Law Variations, now is it just me or as a whole are we getting used to the ELV's.  Is there slowly a degree of acceptance of them that did not exist before. Certainly Saturday's game did not seem to suffer too greatly from them. Perhaps it is too early to judge and once we get into the depths of winter and some quagmire pitches and then the more cynical (by some teams anyway) end of the season views might change again. But just like in the Southern Hemisphere where there was a very anti-ELV faction early on are people starting slowly to warm to them? Time will tell.

Saints hit the road again this week with the trip west to Gloucester. It has always been one of those fixtures that have thrown up a few suprises over the years where the form book has gone out the window. Glaws are riding high once more but if we can take the second half performance against Bath down there, please not the first half one, then there is no reason we cannot get something out of this game especially as we welcome back the Scottish contingent.

Of course Kingsholm is known as a bit of a bearpit but a big well done to the Gloucester faithful who last week let their club know quite vocally what they thought of someone's daft idea of post score music. In a classic case of people power the club relented this week to the pressure and stopped the practice. Though this week I hope the tuneful Oh When The Saints from the travelling hordes is heard after a few scores of our own.

And finally an apology. I still do not know who it is but a huge thank you to whoever made the decision to kick off at 1:00pm last week. Perhaps I was too quick to judge in berating the un-named people who allowed both the Saints and England games to overlap by a sizable chunk. By the time I got to the members bar I only managed to see an hour of the England game and that was 55 minutes too much, but thank you for saving me any further anguish.

This week alas there will be no escape for me as I am off to Twickenham to see England take on the All Blacks. I was hoping to see Dylan make his first start in the white shirt but it is not to be however I know I will be seeing a lot more points scored than those of you travelling to Kingsholm. Sadly though, after how dire England were last week, I doubt very much if I will be cheering many, if any, of those scores.

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Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: ComeOnYouSaints.com (IP Logged)
Date: 27/11/2008 23:41

Thoughts from the Chron 271108

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: Eif Jones (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 02:51

Afraid the logic over the disallowed tries does not hold up. A game does not follow the same pattern if a try is or is not scored. The Saints were allowed a try that got them that 7 point lead but were unable to hold on to that lead. So the same thing could have happened if one of the earlier tries had been given. In addition Bath could claim that there was an issue over Easter's try and apply your logic.


dej

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: St.Rich Joe, Niamh and Sam's Dad (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 07:01

Well I'm with you Mr G, nicely done as usual.

Come join my Six Nations prediction game on SportGuru! It's free and loads of fun. Just click here:

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Pool name: coysdc
Pool code: tunabane

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: ChrisG (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 07:27

Eif, i'm suprised with some of the stuff you come out with on here tha the word logic is in your vocabulary.

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: Ian Spokes (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 08:29

I would imagine that the issue with TMO for every match is cost.

Clubs generally have one (or possibly two) camera angles for their own use. Whilst that may have enabled Saints to clearly see a wrong decision on this occasion, generally it would be inadequate for providing the TMO with the necessary detailed evidence.

Several cameras,cameramen,playback equipment and the TMO himself amount to an expensive package. This is in place for televised matches anyway, hence the sensible decision to use it - but it would be very expensive to put in place otherwise.

Having said that, I tend to agree that if the technology exists, it should be used.

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: Wee Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 08:57

Good read!
Video technology wont remove the problem completely ( as cricket has found) nthough it might reduce the degree of uncertainty.
Its how teams reposnd when either a try is scored or denied. If its againts you and you are deflated then it can have a negaitve impact. On the other hand if it motivates you to bally well go out and score a brace then the result is still in your hands.

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: Ian Spokes (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 09:27

Another point I intended to mention is that I have noticed a tendency in televised (therefore TMO-enabled) matches for defending players to screen (no pun intended) the grounding from the cameras by piling onto the (possible) try scorer.

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: oddshapedballs (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 09:41

Do you know, I have spent quite a while on the Bath board this week and, in terms of controversial incidents and commentary, there is only one mention of doubt over Easter's try.

I spoke to him about it on Wednesday. It definitely went "forward" off the Bath defender's shoulder.

When we consider that the only angle that we have seen it on tv is a trailing angle from above the half-way line or a debenture seat from the Millennium Stadium, Mark Easter is probably the best authority on it.

Quote:
This, from the dismal druid© who has a history of criticising anything and everything to do with Bruce Reihana and a very poor record on accuracy, is the only mention on this or the Bath board

But, with all the abuse at the ref, no mention of Bruce's forward pass that led to Easter's try.


The use of the word 'abuse' is also interesting in this context.

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: Saint Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 09:55

Thought there was actually little abuse of Rosey - ok maybe one or two over the top comments but mostly measured debate.

http://www.smurfomatic.plus.com/sttim.gif

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

Benjamin Franklin

Tetleys Block F E143

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: oddshapedballs (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 10:00

Ian,

I take you point about the diving on top - in fact I think I made a similar one earlier in the week. Just how did Hooper expect to prvent Tonga'uiha's try by jumping on top of him after he had scored.

It is to be hoped that this sort of behaviour is too delayed to catch out properly positioned cameras. However, as we saw on Saturday, if the defending team dives all over a try-scorer close to the line, it is almost impossible for a referee who is not impeccably positioned to find positive proof that the ball was grounded on or over the line.

On the point you made earlier about costs of the setting up a video review system. I wonder how it is dealt with in France (invitation to MarkH & ChrisG).

[Warning! Metaphor Soup follows]

Whilst I can see that having a series of broadcast cameras with HD capability and all that might be prohibitive, I cannot help but feel that a Rolls Royce isn't necessarily the only car in the market. In cutting our video surveillance suit to our financial cloth, could we not find the Mini that is all we really need?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:11:28:10:53:16 by oddshapedballs.

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 271108
Posted by: SaintsDuncan (IP Logged)
Date: 28/11/2008 13:37

Eif,

the availability of a video ref is irrelevant too Easter's try.

The alleged knock-on neither happened "in the act of scoring" nor "in in-goal" so is outside of his jurisdiction, but hey let's not let the facts get in the way of a bit of Saints bashing huh?

As a point to ponder, if the setting up of video refs is deemed too expensive, how about having "in-goal" refs to rule on this much like they do in Sevens?

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