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Thoughts from the Chron 4th December
By Chris Gleadell
December 4 2008
After the defeat at Kingsholm on Saturday evening for the Saints it is five games on the road and five losses in the Guinness Premiership. I was not at the game and cannot comment too much but it seems from reading the reports and the various soundbites from those involved that both in attack and defence we took the wrong options at times whilst Gloucester were more clinical in their approach.

Perhaps the most interesting remarks were made by the Glos coach Dean Ryan. He has never been one for given credit where it is not due, especially to the opposition, but his remarks that Saints were perhaps a better side than the score suggested and they were up against his team at the top of their game should be taken note of before we get too down in the dumps over the result.

In fact we probably should not get too much hung up on these on the road results in case it becomes a millstone around our necks and yet more ammunition for the doom mongers. Perhaps we supporters always expect a little too much too soon and some too ready to jump on any chink in the armour but the harsh reality might be that our next tangible chance of an away victory might not come until we visit Worcester in March. Of course that might change and quickly (and we all hope it does) but with us still being a work in progress and this season about consolidation in the GP more than anything else perhaps we should not put too much weight too soon on the current inability to come away with the spoils on our travels. If anything, as has been mentioned before, it will be our home form that defines the season.

 

It may not be the GP this week but that 18 month home record still stands and will be no doubt be defended with vigour as we take on Bristol in the European Challenge Cup. It is two down three to go in our five game series with Bris this season and a good showing in the double header over the next two weekends could see us a long way towards quarter final qualification in the ECC. Currently sitting six points clear in Pool Two, and with the other two sides Toulon and Montpellier having a double header of their own over the next two weeks, victories over Bristol could see us all but qualify before the final two games come round in January 09.

It will be interesting to see what kind of team Bristol put out. After the defeat down at the Memorial Ground three weeks ago Bris coach Richard Hill stated that Saints would struggle this season as they were competing on three fronts the GP, ECC and EDF Cup. Now whether that's a large slice of kidology and he is trying to lull us into a false sense of security over the two European games remains to be seen but if you take Hill at his word then we may well see a shadow of the side that defeated us in November. Perhaps given his limited resources in his position its prudent to cut your cloth to suit and not overstretch your squad by being involved at the quarter final stage whilst ensuring one of your perceived rivals in the using Hills words ‘relegation dogfight' are stretching theirs. Do I believe him, nope not for a minute. Whilst we might see a few players rested whatever Bristol team is selected will be all out to win because just like us they know if they do indeed survive in the GP next year they know that this is their best shot at a Heineken Cup place and all the financial rewards that brings. For a club in Bristol 's current plight they would be mad not to have a tilt at it.

But when that is all said and done we are in the qualification driving seat and whilst Jim Mallinder might opt to rest one or two I would expect us to be putting out a fairly strong squad to try and sew this one up before Christmas.

 

Whilst we are on the subject of the ECC, in the days following the game down in Bristol next weekend the date should be confirmed for our game out in Montpellier . As I have said before I know the place fairly well and next week I will have the info on travel, accommodation etc. for all you independent travellers. It may be in darkest January but what better way to banish those winter blues.

 

As I said earlier I was not at Gloucester on Saturday, instead I made the trek to Twickenham for the England v All Blacks game. Whilst the great and the good at the RFU are pleading patience for the Martin Johnson and his coaches is it just me or was there any progress made at all over the four Autumn internationals? Sure some new talent may have emerged in the likes of Delon Armitage but to me overall England looked like they lacked decision makers in key areas, leadership and above all tactical nous. How often on Saturday did they get in a threatening position to give away exactly the same penalty?

Again the same old tired excuses were coming out from the same old tired faces. But we have heard it all before and the excuse that it the clubs fault for importing players is starting to wear thin when the truth of the matter is England can select far more qualified players than any other home union.

Again we seem to be going around in the same old viscous circle. Cast the blame elsewhere and then perhaps people might not realise some of those coaches serving under Johnson are not up to the job. On a four year Rugby World Cup cycle keep that blame culture up long enough and your chances of competing with the big boys (remember when we were one of them?) gets less and less. I hope they turn it around, I really do, but I can see the very same results happening next November and another year lost.

 

 

One other talking point from Saturday was the Haka. In recent years the All Blacks pre game war dance has changed from one of the traditions of the game into something altogether different. From what happened to Brian O'Driscoll on the Lions tour, to the new Kapa o Pango haka with its throat slitting to the All Blacks doing it in their dressing room because Wales dared to ask them if they could sing afterwards. The final straw in a lot of peoples eyes was the comments from Nonu last week about people not giving it due respect after Wales (again) stared the All Blacks down at haka time and how it could have led to a fight. Graham Henry came up with the respect line too but then building a siege mentality as a coach probably does no harm, Nonu on the other hand sounded like a teenager bigging himself up for a brawl outside the local shops. To be fair to the people of New Zealand not many came out in support of those comments and even All Blacks legend Zinzan Brooke said his compatriots were getting too precious about the whole thing.

 

So how would the English react? Come Saturday and knowing how many non-rugby people get to Twickenham and some over indulgence by the rugby fraternity that do I fully expected to hear booing once the actions began, but no. As the England side faced up to the opposition going through their routine around 80,000 singing Swing Low Sweet Chariot at the top of their voices seemed a very apt reply in itself. The England team did not have to do anything, the crowd did it for them. I have been to Twickenham a fair few times, those two minutes were by far the most atmospheric, it was a special moment.

 

So in reply to the haka, either crowds as in England or teams as in Wales last week, each should be allowed a riposte. For the All Blacks, accept these reactions as accepting your challenge and, pardon the pun, stop making such a big song and dance about it. Long may it continue!


 

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Thoughts from the Chron 4th December
Posted by: ComeOnYouSaints.com (IP Logged)
Date: 04/12/2008 23:55

Thoughts from the Chron 4th December

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 4th December
Posted by: Eif Jones (IP Logged)
Date: 05/12/2008 01:56

Did you hear Dewi Morris putting the boot into Spencer on the Rugby Club, more a hindrance than a help he said. What with refusing to get hurt when given the try scoring opportunity, apparently the same thing happened when given a takling opportunities.

dej

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 4th December
Posted by: ClaireJ (IP Logged)
Date: 05/12/2008 06:27

Eif, No I heard Will Greenwood...(Sm14)

Great article Chris - wise words on the subject of Saints and England.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:05:06:34:24 by ClaireJ.

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 4th December
Posted by: St Francis (IP Logged)
Date: 05/12/2008 07:34

Good stuff...

I hope the away fixture in Montpellier is on a reasonable day and not a Thursday... We would really like to go to that one.

To momentarily agree with Shaggy (for it was he), Carlos did do a bit of an "after you" for Tindall. But pundits speak more and more in sound bites these days and Greenwood seems to be constantly looking for the pithy one-liner: taking Carlos's performance over the match as a whole is was a completely unfair comment.

I can see Greenwood as a replacement for Jonathan Ross one day once he gets his adenoids sorted out...

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 4th December
Posted by: Nigel Scott (IP Logged)
Date: 05/12/2008 08:28

Pah!!

These supporters columns

Nearly as bad as players' ones - at least they have the "ghost writer" excuse.

tongue sticking out smiley

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 4th December
Posted by: Big Bird© (IP Logged)
Date: 05/12/2008 10:41

Chris, I'm not looking to pick a fight here but quote

"In fact we probably should not get too much hung up on these on the road results in case it becomes a millstone around our necks and yet more ammunition for the doom mongers. Perhaps we supporters always expect a little too much too soon and some too ready to jump on any chink in the armour"

and

"Again we seem to be going around in the same old viscous circle. Cast the blame elsewhere and then perhaps people might not realise some of those coaches serving under Johnson are not up to the job."

Other than the fact that the Saints are marginally achieving more wins than England have under Johnson, there are similarities in terms of development.

To criticise the coaching side when predominantly they have been together for 5 weeks and 4 matches could be considered as supporters expecting too much too soon.

Sky's RC script last night was on a similar vein, i.e. Glaws, Bath, LI & Quins are all playing the style of rugby that England should aspire to so it must be the coaches. Errr, didn't MJ sign up LI's Smith for that very reason.

Our target should be World Cups, we have made the last 2 finals winning one losing one. If we build a team that gets us to the Final in NZ in 2011, I for one will accept some disappointing and below par performances along the way.

After all, what's the point in being the best team in the world who bottle it come World Cup time!

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 4th December
Posted by: ChrisG (IP Logged)
Date: 05/12/2008 11:51

Big difference is we (Saints) are a work in progress and certainly better than last years side, you can see progression.

England on the other hand are going backwards and are worse than the team that Brian Ashton lost his job over, RWC semi final or not. They are a work in regress if there ever was one. And I know you'll tell me that we're taking one step back to take three forward but some of the stuff on Saturday was naive at best.

And not all of those coaches have been there a few weeks, John Wells for example took over the forwards when Andy Robinson left over two years ago. The forwards, especially at the breakdown, look one of the major problems.

If Saints were playing like England I wouldn't be saying that we expect too much, because after all we are winning games albeit only at home, i'd be saying get rid of some coaches just the same.

But like I said i'd really like to be proved wrong.

(And yes I probably will be)

Re: Thoughts from the Chron 4th December
Posted by: Wee Jim (IP Logged)
Date: 05/12/2008 13:23

Good read and thought provoking as always.

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