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Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Rich. 28 May, 2020 13:02
Just read that Pat (on BBC Wales Scrum V podcast) said Ioan Lloyd will be pushing Sheeds hard next season for the 10 shirt and he expects him to be Wales !0 at the 2023 RWC. The indication is Ioan and Sheeds are the two top choice 10s in his mind and that (as we knew) last/this season was about giving him a taster and not pushing him too fast too soon. It all seems to further suggest that Malins will therefore be used as 2nd choice 15. Malins is only on loan so if he'd rather play 10 then sorry but only if those two are injured or bang out of form

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Brisexile 28 May, 2020 13:10
Whilst I like the sound of that Rich it probably also means Ioan will be off over the bridge at the end of his contract if not earlier.
Difficult job to balance player and squad development - playing international rugby wouldn’t, I fear, do both in the long term here.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
hooter 28 May, 2020 13:14
Sorry why are we bothering to bring on young players if they won’t even be English qualified?

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Peter D 28 May, 2020 13:46
Because it's how we thrive as a club. Young players in and around Bristol learn and develop their game with us. If players move on, players move on - that's the modern game. If players who have come through our Academy go on to win international honours it reflects on our academy system and young players are keen to come to us. If we only have England qualified players in our system, given the fact that many players, at the beginning of their careers, are qualified for more than one nation (take Sheedy as an example). i don't have a problem with it.

The problem I have is, not with players who are Welsh (or Scottish) qualified moving to seek international honours) the WRU telling our players they need to move to Wales to get picked (they don't) and then not developing them.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Prop Joe 28 May, 2020 14:01
Quote:
Peter D
The problem I have is, not with players who are Welsh (or Scottish) qualified moving to seek international honours) the WRU telling our players they need to move to Wales to get picked (they don't) and then not developing them.
This rule could always change as well. Seems to me the WRU is shooting itself in the foot regards the national teams prospects and with the economic realities following Covid19 there could be further reasons to scrap the ruling. As regards Max Malins, is he not providing cover at 12 also?

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Rich. 28 May, 2020 14:02
But under current rules all we need to do is sign Ioan on a long contract (&/or with sound extension clauses) and he can play for Wales and us at the same time for a number of years - in the way which has happened with Tomas Francis, who has played for Wales since 2015 and remained still playing for Exeter on the Exeter contract he signed up to before he made his Wales debut.

I'm sure we as a club have that in mind - as long as Ioan happy with that then no worries.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
hooter 28 May, 2020 14:23
They could always have a reduced cap on non England qualifying players of say 1 million or half a million.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
home rule for sussex 30 May, 2020 12:21
Because they play for Bristol whilst they are paid by Bristol, if we become the force in rugby we’d like to become, we will have the pick of young talent to develop and some will leave to pursue their careers elsewhere for a variety of reasons.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Davidelson 01 June, 2020 09:26
I think Pat has the idea of two or three top class players in line for each position so it would be great for Bris to have an option to sign Malins and Earl permanently (maybe buy them out?)

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
RJC 03 June, 2020 15:54
Lloyd's already one year into a 4 year deal.

I presume when he becomes a senior member of the squad that will be revised and a new deal will be on the table, hopefully with an extension clause like Thomas Francis had at Exeter?

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
OldMarovian 04 June, 2020 07:14
With the WRU in all sorts of trouble and suggesting that they might cut funding almost entirely to the clubs next season I can see "Gatlands Law" being junked entirely at least in the short term. A bit like the SA situation where they basically realised the financial pressure are too great to expect players to stay put and give up their International aspirations.

As said above the Exeter Francis contract is another way of solving things. A contract with almost significant options to extend written in. I believe that's what we have done for Nick Tompkins.

Your team looks great for next season and I'm interested and pleased to see Malins listed in the back three players. I shall really look forward to watching both his and Earls progress at Bristol next season.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Rich. 04 June, 2020 07:55
I think that Welsh doomsday scenario was based on no rugby for whole of next season

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Gray_Lensman 04 June, 2020 08:08
Quote:
OldMarovian
Your team looks great for next season and I'm interested and pleased to see Malins listed in the back three players. I shall really look forward to watching both his and Earls progress at Bristol next season.

And that's the problem isn't it. What are we doing developing a couple of players for another team for a single season?

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
TimothyQ 04 June, 2020 09:10
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
Quote:
OldMarovian
Your team looks great for next season and I'm interested and pleased to see Malins listed in the back three players. I shall really look forward to watching both his and Earls progress at Bristol next season.

And that's the problem isn't it. What are we doing developing a couple of players for another team for a single season?

To improve our side, to show our youngsters what to aim for, to squeeze a bit more quality into the cap. Plenty of reasons really.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Rich. 04 June, 2020 09:51
Pat was given the opportunity to have two quality players for at least a year ear at next to no cost (we understand) and while there are some potential concerns about that hopefully he did that thinking that in another 12 months there are at least two academy players who will be able to step up to fill there are gaps to a good extend if they do head back to Saracens. But Pat may well think they are not able to do that this season so it gives another 12 months of development-time for those players.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Gray_Lensman 04 June, 2020 10:08
I can see all that, except I'm not sure that young players from $aracen$ are necessarily good examples, in lots of ways, to show our young players what to aim for.

But I don't see how it can do anything other than benefit $aracen$ when they return to the Premiership. Why should we benefit them (or any other side really)?

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
TimothyQ 04 June, 2020 10:41
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
I can see all that, except I'm not sure that young players from $aracen$ are necessarily good examples, in lots of ways, to show our young players what to aim for.
But I don't see how it can do anything other than benefit $aracen$ when they return to the Premiership. Why should we benefit them (or any other side really)?

I think it’s a problem of where business logic meets sporting logic. In sport, we need Saracens to lose for us to win. In business, a good deal results in Saracens, Bristol, Malins and Earl all emerging as winners. And I think that (with a meritocratic coach who doesn’t pick favourites) a positive outcome can easily be achieved from this deal.

So far as whether we should be engaging in deals which benefit saracens, I see no reason why we shouldn’t. I think that our question should be ‘does this deal benefit Bristol’ rather than ‘does this deal further punish the fined, relegated and disgraced Saracens’.

Whilst there was clearly something wrong at Saracens, I wouldn’t share the sentiment (which I think was implied, apologies if I misunderstood) that everyone in the club from the chief exec to the bagman was somehow infected.

Is there a positive side to the Saracens culture which we should try to absorb into our own? In my opinion, yes. We’ve both been to enough championship play-off matches to know that having an overcompensated squad is not a guarantee of success. The competitive culture, work ethic and rugby ethos within the squad have to be right. If those were absent then Sarries could have been paying £15m per year, and they wouldn’t have won a thing. And let’s not forget that they won the champions cup three times in four years, and it could be argued that that was a fair contest.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Gray_Lensman 04 June, 2020 12:07
No, I wasn't trying to imply that everyone there should be tarred with the same brush. I should have made that clearer, no need to apologise.

I wouldn't argue that their European success was a 'fair' contest because it was achieved with a squad assembled by cheating in the Premiership. Yes, there is no cap for Europe but they didn't have a European squad assembled separately from the Premiership one.

Do $aracen$ have anything worth emulating? Everyone acknowledges the excellent academy. But even that is tainted by the cheating. Could they have brought on so many academy players and, crucially, retained them without a squad that wasn't within the cap? Almost certainly not.

As for culture, plenty of clubs have a good culture and I see nothing that suggests $aracen$ developed anything out of the ordinary. Well, nothing that any well-coached club with well-paid good quality players can't achieve.

You can tell I'm a bit down on them

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
OldMarovian 04 June, 2020 20:29
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
And that's the problem isn't it. What are we doing developing a couple of players for another team for a single season?

Not a problem for me nor Pat Lam it seems. One of those knows a fair bit about rugby (hint, it's not me!)

I think TimothyQ put it very well. For me this is a situation where everyone wins. I can understand why that might be unpalatable for some but I guess the calculation is that it is a chance worth taking for Bristol.

If I was in the reverse situation the two reasons would make it unacceptable to me would be if a) the other team was still in the same League b) if I knew we had talented youngsters in those positions who could and perhaps should be getting their own experience in that season. The first isn't the case, the second I'm not sure about.

Do we have anything worth emulating? plenty but its seldom worth trying to convince those who believe all the success is down to cheating. Hopefully if Saracens come back up we'll have the opportunity to show it was always about more than that.

All the best for the coming season.

Re: ‘I got a call from Pat Lam saying they’re looking to put together the strongest squad’ – Max Malins explains Bristol loan move
Gray_Lensman 05 June, 2020 08:39
In the club's list of contracted players we have Malins listed as a fly-half. Also in that category are Callum Sheedy, Ioan Lloyd and Tom Wilstead. None of those are ancient and they ought to be getting game time ahead of a loan signing. If you think of him as a full-back instead then Lloyd should still block him and we've get several other youngster's who have also been tried out in that position and could develop in that role.

I'm really unsure quite why we are doing this. Unless we actually do have the idea of signing Malins and/or Earl permanently. In which case it makes sense to get them into our environment and culture and show them $aracen$ aren't so special after all. Mind you a C-19 environment might not show us to our best advantage.

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