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Celery Cap
Discussion started by tigerburnie , 02 June, 2020 10:36
Celery Cap
tigerburnie 02 June, 2020 10:36
Breaking news a new salary cap has been agreed by the premierships clubs, more to follow says the Beeb

Re: Celery Cap
L.F 02 June, 2020 11:01
Not so - "Lord Myners made 52 official recommendations as part of his comprehensive report into the cap.

All measures will be applied, including titles being stripped for serious offences and more accountability for clubs, players and agents.

However changing the level of the cap, currently £7m, and scrapping the two marquee player allowances were not part of the official recommendations."

Re: Celery Cap
SK 88 02 June, 2020 11:22
New salary cap regulations.

I hope they have consulted with the players and agents because there are some serious restrictions around post playing career work and 3rd party sponsorship in the recommendations, and the report makes clear he did not talk to any players or agents in the drafting of his report.

I wouldn't want the many good and unarguable changes to fall foul of where the report has potentially over reached itself.

Re: Celery Cap
SK 88 02 June, 2020 11:41
Link to club statement here

These are the regs I think are controversial:

Quote:
Regs
3.4 Prohibit payments which are subjective, extend beyond a player’s playing career or come from connected parties (including sponsorship by connected parties). Any prohibited payment should result in a sanction.

3.5 Broaden the current definition of connected party.

3.6 The SCM must approve all sponsorship arrangements in advance.

How do we determine the market rate for Matt Smith appearing at a Stihl event in Oakham? Tom Croft I believe works for Davidson's Homes, who are owned by the son of Tigers 6th largest shareholder, he also went to school with the son though. How do we account for that? At what point after retirement do we have to stop justifying fees for corporate entertainment? Do we have to justify Lloyd? Peter Wheeler?

How would a hypothetical sponsorship of Kyle Sinckler by Umbro fit within these regulations? That deal would, correctly, be worth more to Umbro now they sponsor England & Bristol so why shouldn't it be worth more to Sinckler? He is the only current England player on Bristol's books, how can you determine that "market rate"? If you just ban the sponsorship that seems a totally unreasonable restriction on player's ability to make money from their image.

Also what happens when sponsors change? Manu & Ford are Addidas athletes, if Addidas sponsored us they then become connected parties after are the contracts have been running for ages. Quite often the sponsors dip their toe into the water with a smaller player sponsorship before going more fully into a bigger deal with a club and bigger deals with players.

What happens if a player loses a deal because the SCM delays a decision, especially if it is subsequently found to have been an acceptable deal?

These areas are a minefield and have been drafted so far without consultation on those they affect. Will be very interested in what the final regulations within these areas end up like.

Re: Celery Cap
IDLETIMES 02 June, 2020 11:49
Agree SK, still seems to be too many 'if buts and maybe's' in it for me



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2020 11:51 by IDLETIMES.

Re: Celery Cap
Tiggs 02 June, 2020 15:02
Is there anything stopping a player gifting money to his mates, say a Marquee player whose salary is not in the Cap ?



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/103/103_0_1529059667.jpg

Re: Celery Cap
SimonG19 02 June, 2020 15:14
via a bank account in say South Africa?

Re: Celery Cap
Stopsy 02 June, 2020 15:16
up to a max of £6k a year I believe Tiggs (in total not per mate donated to) all taxable so presumably within the cap

Re: Celery Cap
SK 88 02 June, 2020 15:52
Quote:
Tiggs
Is there anything stopping a player gifting money to his mates, say a Marquee player whose salary is not in the Cap ?

At the moment or in the proposals?

In the proposals you would have to allow the SCM manager access to your bank statements, so yes.

Re: Celery Cap
OldMarovian 02 June, 2020 16:10
Quote:
SK 88
... and the report makes clear he did not talk to any players or agents in the drafting of his report.

To clarify slightly, no players or agents contacted/talked to him. The process was for participants to contact him as he conducted his review not the other way around. If they feel they have had a lack of say/input then that's very much of their own making surely?

I agree 100% with you about your views about the problematic nature of deciding what is and isn't allowed post-career but then I have some issues with the connected parties bit regarding when players are still playing. I appreciate why it's problematic but feel that the better way to handle it would be to have it all out in the open.

Re: Celery Cap
IDLETIMES 02 June, 2020 17:10
It's the imd smoke and mirrors trick

Re: Celery Cap
SK 88 02 June, 2020 18:10
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
SK 88
... and the report makes clear he did not talk to any players or agents in the drafting of his report.

To clarify slightly, no players or agents contacted/talked to him. The process was for participants to contact him as he conducted his review not the other way around. If they feel they have had a lack of say/input then that's very much of their own making surely?

I agree 100% with you about your views about the problematic nature of deciding what is and isn't allowed post-career but then I have some issues with the connected parties bit regarding when players are still playing. I appreciate why it's problematic but feel that the better way to handle it would be to have it all out in the open.

He proactively sought out and interviewed people running clubs though, he could have done that with players and agents too, particularly once he started thinking of such restrictions. Yes players could have answered the survey but he didn't only rely on that.

Re: Celery Cap
Tiggs 02 June, 2020 19:29
Quote:
SK 88
Quote:
Tiggs
Is there anything stopping a player gifting money to his mates, say a Marquee player whose salary is not in the Cap ?

At the moment or in the proposals?

In the proposals you would have to allow the SCM manager access to your bank statements, so yes.

Cash payments ? Lots of ways to hide stuff if they are determined enough. Almost impossible to cover ever possibility.



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/103/103_0_1529059667.jpg

Re: Celery Cap
Yorkie 02 June, 2020 19:47
Actually cash is getting more and more problematical and traceable.



http://www.jakehowlett.com/tuckshop/wrappers/chocolate/plain/yorkie-nutter.jpg

Re: Celery Cap
shendy 02 June, 2020 20:22
Quote:
Tiggs
Is there anything stopping a player gifting money to his mates, say a Marquee player whose salary is not in the Cap ?

Wouldn't that be a connected party?
If someone did try it, the Marquee player would have paid tax on it, the second recipient may try not to - at which point HMRC would become interested.
Or they do pay tax on it, which is admitting it's income - and rugby related.

Re: Celery Cap
SK 88 02 June, 2020 20:32
Quote:
shendy
Quote:
Tiggs
Is there anything stopping a player gifting money to his mates, say a Marquee player whose salary is not in the Cap ?

Wouldn't that be a connected party?
If someone did try it, the Marquee player would have paid tax on it, the second recipient may try not to - at which point HMRC would become interested.
Or they do pay tax on it, which is admitting it's income - and rugby related.

Yes it would be very high risk to the marquee player for literally no reward for himself.

Quote:
Yorkie
Actually cash is getting more and more problematical and traceable.

Yes money laundering regulations make paying or depositing large amounts of cash more difficult than ever. If you did it every week/month I think the bank would pick it up pretty quickly.

Re: Celery Cap
OldMarovian 03 June, 2020 12:19
Quote:
SK 88
He proactively sought out and interviewed people running clubs though, he could have done that with players and agents too, particularly once he started thinking of such restrictions. Yes players could have answered the survey but he didn't only rely on that.

Thanks for the clarification. I read an interview where he was talking about the responses and he specifically mentioned that no Agents had responded. He also talked about conversations with people who had sent in those responses. I wasn't it was more proactive than that.

One of the best recommendations of Myers IMO was that all payments be treated as salary until the SCM says otherwise. Personally I've not a lot of faith in the current guy so would have preferred that they had made it that if he okays a loophole he has to communicate that loophole to all 13 clubs but given PRL only want a limited investigation into how far cap abuse went beyond Saracens I can see why that won't happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2020 12:24 by OldMarovian.

Re: Celery Cap
SK 88 03 June, 2020 13:32
Quote:
so would have preferred that they had made it that if he okays a loophole he has to communicate that loophole to all 13 clubs

I'm not going to go back through the whole report right now but I thought this was covered in the blurb accompanying this recommendation:

Quote:
2.4 Publish guidance from the SCM regularly and make this publicly available.


Which was essentially what you say, any guidance or clarifications would be published for anyone to look at.

Re: Celery Cap
John Tee 03 June, 2020 13:49
Boot sponsor sponsors player A. Can be outside of cap, no probkem, imv. player A retires, boot sponsor continues as mileage left in deal, no problem.
Boot sponsor cannot not have anything to do with club, but they might also sponsor kit. The demarcation is clear and open.

Players B retires and is retained by club for services. That must be in cap. This is what abuse does..it closes loop holes for good or bad.

Re: Celery Cap
OldMarovian 03 June, 2020 14:12
Quote:
SK 88
Quote:
2.4 Publish guidance from the SCM regularly and make this publicly available.
Which was essentially what you say, any guidance or clarifications would be published for anyone to look at.

That's way too wooly for me SK88. I'd like something that specifically says that when he oks something it has to be communicated to everyone as soon as it's agreed.
Myners suggested that up to half the clubs are abusing the spirit if not the way the SCM has decided to interpret the cap to be policed with regards to player loans.
The above could mean he makes a report once a season, that would be "regular".

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