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Andrea Pinchin says
Discussion started by jojo , 16 October, 2020 11:51
Andrea Pinchin says
jojo 16 October, 2020 11:51
Tigers are losing up to £1m per month. Won't be able to carry on like they are if crowds are not allowed to come back. (Unlikely until a vaccine is available).

Are Tigers in trouble?
Is this a legacy of not having a sugar daddy?
Perhaps we would have been better if there was a money man behind Tigers and the folly in allowing large tranches of shares being "given" on the cheap to our directors who possibly are not prepared to bail out Tigers.

The £12m from CVC is being used to fund the last six months in lockdown and potentially the next 6 months. What a waste.

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Tiggs 16 October, 2020 12:37
Well not really a waste, maybe not what was intended, but it helps the club survive, then definitely not a waste.



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Re: Andrea Pinchin says
IDLETIMES 16 October, 2020 14:53
Yes, deffo. if it helps us through it

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
jojo 16 October, 2020 17:49
Is Boris the first of a few redundancies alluded to by AP?

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Ayerzawannabe 16 October, 2020 17:52
Doubt it.
The other redundancies we have been pretty straight forward in saying it.

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Stopsy 16 October, 2020 17:52
Cannot be if they are looking to replace

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Hymenoptera 16 October, 2020 18:21
I think the clubs have to abandon next season until fans get the go ahead. How this is achieved, i have no idea..does the new Gov scheme for top ups help enough if players are put on PT hours. How do the clubs stop spending 40k a month on testing...
What a mess...with no solution.
Plus you have the greedy bunch waiting to take another 750k off you...when it rains, it pours..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/10/2020 18:22 by Hymenoptera.

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
SK 88 16 October, 2020 18:59
Quote:
jojo
Tigers are losing up to £1m per month. Won't be able to carry on like they are if crowds are not allowed to come back. (Unlikely until a vaccine is available).
Are Tigers in trouble?
Is this a legacy of not having a sugar daddy?
Perhaps we would have been better if there was a money man behind Tigers and the folly in allowing large tranches of shares being "given" on the cheap to our directors who possibly are not prepared to bail out Tigers.

The £12m from CVC is being used to fund the last six months in lockdown and potentially the next 6 months. What a waste.

So ....

"Are Tigers in trouble?"

Depends what we mean. I personally struggle to see an insolvency event, we have low debts at £8m with a 20 year term and high assets with the stadium valued at c.£50m before we consider our P shares (or whatever they now call them). We have reduced our biggest out going by 25%, lost a further 18% of our head count.

Our board of directors and major shareholders (beyond just Scott & Tom) are worth well over a billion combined with serious wealth in David Wilson, John Bloor Homes man and Charles Street Buildings (Murphy bros).

We have yet to publicly consider share issues or bonds, which could raise funds; a share issue might be best held back until the long term has settled down though as if we could recapitalise at an opportune moment we could reap some big rewards.

If we want a bailout (like we clearly do) you generally have to really get a lot of egg in the pudding , particularly as the govt has shut its ears to the moral argument that they are imposing this cost on a small number of particular business for the national greater good, so should compensate those particular businesses. For the league more generally it is simply not credible for Bristol, Bath, Quins, Sale or Saracens to ask for bailouts, they have had literally millions of loans leveraged on them and/or capital contributions by extremely rich benefactors. Exeter are currently raising a 7 year bond, they can hardly go cap in hand leading the charge to govt for bailout while entering into a multi-year unsecured bond. That leaves Worcester, Newcastle, Northampton and Gloucester. Worcester & Newcastle simply don't have the cultural pull to pressure elected politicians. Which leaves Leicester & Gloucester who are leading the press for a Premiership bailout. I am surprised Northampton aren't getting involved, as both town seats are Tory marginals and the county seats less safe than most Leics ones they could have a could chance of getting MPs to listen and get on side. Suggests they are very secure in their future to me at least.

" folly in allowing large tranches of shares being "given" on the cheap to our directors who possibly are not prepared to bail out Tigers."

I assume you mean the loan notes here, they were not "given" to Tom Scott he paid £5m for c. 16% of the company stock. He also acquired the other 30% over several years using companies in the Channel Islands with more limited transparency than would be required in the UK but he quite simply must have acquired those from the general populace of fans as they were the people that held the share.

I am deeply sceptical of his motives but really there is nothing dodgy in it, we opened the door then didn't check to see who had walked into the kitchen.

"The £12m from CVC is being used to fund the last six months in lockdown and potentially the next 6 months. What a waste."

Agreed that is a big shame, and a lost opportunity, but as with others think waste is not the right word, keeping the club going is never a waste of money!!

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
SK 88 16 October, 2020 19:07
Quote:
Hymenoptera
I think the clubs have to abandon next season until fans get the go ahead. How this is achieved, i have no idea..does the new Gov scheme for top ups help enough if players are put on PT hours. How do the clubs stop spending 40k a month on testing...
What a mess...with no solution.
Plus you have the greedy bunch waiting to take another 750k off you...when it rains, it pours..

That stops the only income we can generate too though (TV money and sponsorships) without stopping the major outgoings. £40k a month for the whole league is £400k per year, or 1% of the TV contract. It's a frustrating amount but it is a totally required cost to generate the rest. Even if that figure is per club (which I don't think it is) it is still only 10% to generate the other 90%.

If the Prem & RFU waived the rules on "rugby creditors" for administrations I think most teams would do a pre-pack administrations to shed their wage bills and crack on again.

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Bod 16 October, 2020 20:02
The value of the stadium exists when spectators can freely attend.
When is this scenario to resume given the current scare storm?

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Stopsy 16 October, 2020 20:02
I am always amazed at people criticising those board members that have invested thousands/millions in the club without any demonstrable fiscal reward. Maybe a season ticket equates to the same amount of disposable income but they choose to back (rather than invest in) the club

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Yorkie 16 October, 2020 20:13
Quote:
SK 88
He also acquired the other 30% over several years using companies in the Channel Islands with more limited transparency than would be required in the UK but he quite simply must have acquired those from the general populace of fans as they were the people that held the share.
I am deeply sceptical of his motives but really there is nothing dodgy in it, we opened the door then didn't check to see who had walked into the kitchen.

Thought he bought the second big tranche of his shares from the club?

I'm with you re wondering what this guy's motivations are. We didn't just open the door though. He was invited in by PT and most of the small, none sophisticated shareholders sat back and let him enter on the back of PT's recommendation. As they did when PT altered the club's constitution to allow big shareholdings.

Can't see us going bust as TS has got too much money invested. PT too in a way.

Same way as Exeter bond not too much of a risk at 5.5% as big hitters have millions invested.



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Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Hymenoptera 16 October, 2020 20:49
Quote:
SK 88
Quote:
Hymenoptera
I think the clubs have to abandon next season until fans get the go ahead. How this is achieved, i have no idea..does the new Gov scheme for top ups help enough if players are put on PT hours. How do the clubs stop spending 40k a month on testing...
What a mess...with no solution.
Plus you have the greedy bunch waiting to take another 750k off you...when it rains, it pours..

That stops the only income we can generate too though (TV money and sponsorships) without stopping the major outgoings. £40k a month for the whole league is £400k per year, or 1% of the TV contract. It's a frustrating amount but it is a totally required cost to generate the rest. Even if that figure is per club (which I don't think it is) it is still only 10% to generate the other 90%.

If the Prem & RFU waived the rules on "rugby creditors" for administrations I think most teams would do a pre-pack administrations to shed their wage bills and crack on again.

If your losing 1m a month with TV money and sponsorship in place, baring in mind CVC now take a large portion, Vs maybe 8Mil a year just in player wages, let alone other operational costs, i'm not so sure.

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Tiggs 16 October, 2020 20:56
Realistically the longer this goes on, the further down the pecking order of clubs we fall, if that is even possible.



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Re: Andrea Pinchin says
SK 88 16 October, 2020 21:43
Quote:
Bod
The value of the stadium exists when spectators can freely attend.
When is this scenario to resume given the current scare storm?

No this is wrong, the value is in the land in central Leicester.

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
SK 88 16 October, 2020 21:47
Quote:
Stopsy
I am always amazed at people criticising those board members that have invested thousands/millions in the club without any demonstrable fiscal reward. Maybe a season ticket equates to the same amount of disposable income but they choose to back (rather than invest in) the club

Well...... They tried to sell it for minimum double their money within the last year so no "demonstrable fiscal reward" so far. And again until this year (and until the accounts come out we won't know or sure) there have not even been any soft director loans, just commercial interest investments that have been fully redeemed.

There is no case to be made for them as Father Christmases, even if one is sceptical of them as corporate raiders.

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
SK 88 16 October, 2020 21:53
Quote:
Yorkie
Quote:
SK 88
He also acquired the other 30% over several years using companies in the Channel Islands with more limited transparency than would be required in the UK but he quite simply must have acquired those from the general populace of fans as they were the people that held the share.
I am deeply sceptical of his motives but really there is nothing dodgy in it, we opened the door then didn't check to see who had walked into the kitchen.

Thought he bought the second big tranche of his shares from the club?

I'm with you re wondering what this guy's motivations are. We didn't just open the door though. He was invited in by PT and most of the small, none sophisticated shareholders sat back and let him enter on the back of PT's recommendation. As they did when PT altered the club's constitution to allow big shareholdings.

Can't see us going bust as TS has got too much money invested. PT too in a way.

Same way as Exeter bond not too much of a risk at 5.5% as big hitters have millions invested.

I think you are referring to the loan notes purchase, certainly it was the loan notes that pushed him above the 30% of shares barrier in 2015. Prior to that I don't think/can't see any extra shares created.

Agree that's what my metaphor was trying to get at, PT recommended waiving the limits on share holding and people thought it was for him to increase but it was not.

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
Stopsy 16 October, 2020 21:54
To date

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
SK 88 16 October, 2020 21:59
Quote:
Hymenoptera
Quote:
SK 88
Quote:
Hymenoptera
I think the clubs have to abandon next season until fans get the go ahead. How this is achieved, i have no idea..does the new Gov scheme for top ups help enough if players are put on PT hours. How do the clubs stop spending 40k a month on testing...
What a mess...with no solution.
Plus you have the greedy bunch waiting to take another 750k off you...when it rains, it pours..

That stops the only income we can generate too though (TV money and sponsorships) without stopping the major outgoings. £40k a month for the whole league is £400k per year, or 1% of the TV contract. It's a frustrating amount but it is a totally required cost to generate the rest. Even if that figure is per club (which I don't think it is) it is still only 10% to generate the other 90%.

If the Prem & RFU waived the rules on "rugby creditors" for administrations I think most teams would do a pre-pack administrations to shed their wage bills and crack on again.

If your losing 1m a month with TV money and sponsorship in place, baring in mind CVC now take a large portion, Vs maybe 8Mil a year just in player wages, let alone other operational costs, i'm not so sure.

Not so sure of what? Without income we'd all be losing even more

Re: Andrea Pinchin says
daktari 16 October, 2020 22:30
All the conditions ripe for an overseas takeover , based on a floundering domestic outlook, future property valuation and a couple of majkor shareholders looking to cut and run in abear market. Watch this space especially in the post Brexit transition environment.

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