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Wales v England pt2
Discussion started by Sarriebone , 17 August, 2019 14:08
Wales v England pt2
Sarriebone 17 August, 2019 14:08
Liam Williams out in warm up, not heard why though, seemed to be walking ok though

Re: Wales v England pt2
GazzaFez 17 August, 2019 15:07
Quote:
Sarriebone
Liam Williams out in warm up, not heard why though, seemed to be walking ok though

Was seen holding the back of this thigh so presumably tight h/s?

Re: Wales v England pt2
Sarriebone 17 August, 2019 15:15
Yeah commentary said tight HS.

England have been dire so far, kicking from hand has been dismal. BV been decent so far.
Not sure on the laws but shouldn't the ref have waited for Joseph to be off the field to restart the play?

Re: Wales v England pt2
Sarriebone 17 August, 2019 16:14
Now I don't want to seem bitter or generalise about French refs but...

Re: Wales v England pt2
sarricen 17 August, 2019 16:27
That yellow was never a yellow in a million years. Not even a penalty. Both arms were going in to bind. And it was so deep in Wales half

I am shocked as well that the Biggar challenge on Itoje after the interception wasn't looked at. To me that looked like a no arms shoulder charge to the head with Itoje fully upright. Probably would've been a red if indeed that happened (only saw it in real time). Let's see what the citing officer says. Oh wait, only Ashton can be banned from a friendly...

Re: Wales v England pt2
John Tee 17 August, 2019 17:34
England deserved nothing from that display ..which is what they got.

Re: Wales v England pt2
Innings 17 August, 2019 18:26
The real lesson for me was that England are woefully short of back-up in several positions:

One top-drawer hooker, but LC-D proved that he is scarcely better than a good club player, and EJ has tried no other. Was he unlucky with Hartley? Or should he worked out that to risk all on a 33 year-old with a history of injury and concussions was a high-risk gamble?
Ditto No8, with no pretender even close to being international-trophy winning standard. Hughes should have been the closest, but he's faded too much in the last 18 months.
Ford was far below RWC standard today, several poor decisions, some inadequate kicking from hand, failed to impose himself on the game or team. Has Eddie got a third 10 in mind? If so, I cannot see who it would be in his named squad.
After trying every England qualified player Eddie still hasn't found a certain-to-start 10-12-13 combination.

Trying to bring in bolters, like Francis, Ludlum and Cockanasiga, was always a risk, and under the pressure of today's game none really justified why he should be in the 31. OK for Heinz, but one bolter coming good, out of four, is a poor return.

Trouble is that Eddie just couldn't resist the next name bigged up by his club or the Press. He has frittered away the opportunity to build an experienced, cohesive squad and then trust them to deliver. I thought Wales gave the game to England last week, and when the real Wales turned up today, England were found out in too many positions. If the bench, loaded with sure-fire starters, hadn't steadied things at the last, the score-line could well have been embarrassing.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Wales v England pt2
Sarriebone 17 August, 2019 18:42
Issues today were all over the park.

LCD, just not good enough, can't throw consistently enough to be international level.
Cole had a good first couple of scrums but beyond that? Not much really.
We desperately need a 7!
BV solid as per usual, gave us at least a little go forward, but the squad has no replacement for him, that's a huge workload on one player.
Heinz faaar too slow in the first half, Youngs actually seemed to speed up the game when he came on in the second half. For me he shouldn't be in the squad, he may bring leadership, though that didn't exactly show today, but he lacks international experience and that showed in Cardiff.
Ford ...
Francis was solid enough not spectacular, but solid.
The rest of the backs just had no go-forward, far too much lateral running that didn't end up going anywhere.

I really hope the Sarries coaching team have a plan for Daly because what he's shown in the last couple of matches hasn't been reassuring from a Sarries perspective.

Right now I'd want Spencer or Robson to come in for Heinz, Cips for Ford and Goode in to cover 15 and back up 10. Why was Singleton playing 6 again when he came on? Why not have a proper 6 in the squad, Dombrandt should have had a run out in these two matches rather than him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/08/2019 18:46 by Sarriebone.

Re: Wales v England pt2
Squawker2 17 August, 2019 18:50
Quote:
Sarriebone
I really hope the Sarries coaching team have a plan for Daly because what he's shown in the last couple of matches hasn't been reassuring from a Sarries perspective.


Happy to put good money down on our coaches having a plan on how to improve Daly - and improve he will!



-----------------------------------------------------

Stuart Barnes is a Cock Womble

Re: Wales v England pt2
Sarriebone 17 August, 2019 18:55
Quote:
Squawker2
Quote:
Sarriebone
I really hope the Sarries coaching team have a plan for Daly because what he's shown in the last couple of matches hasn't been reassuring from a Sarries perspective.


Happy to put good money down on our coaches having a plan on how to improve Daly - and improve he will!
I'm sure they have, though I'm still struggling to see where he's going to fit in. But then I'm not paid to know.

Re: Wales v England pt2
Roger G 17 August, 2019 21:39
Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
Squawker2
Quote:
Sarriebone
I really hope the Sarries coaching team have a plan for Daly because what he's shown in the last couple of matches hasn't been reassuring from a Sarries perspective.


Happy to put good money down on our coaches having a plan on how to improve Daly - and improve he will!
I'm sure they have, though I'm still struggling to see where he's going to fit in. But then I'm not paid to know.

Wherever he fits I bet it won't be fullback.

Re: Wales v England pt2
OhMaroItoje 17 August, 2019 22:48
Quote:
Roger G
Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
Squawker2
Quote:
Sarriebone
I really hope the Sarries coaching team have a plan for Daly because what he's shown in the last couple of matches hasn't been reassuring from a Sarries perspective.


Happy to put good money down on our coaches having a plan on how to improve Daly - and improve he will!
I'm sure they have, though I'm still struggling to see where he's going to fit in. But then I'm not paid to know.

Wherever he fits I bet it won't be fullback.

Im pretty sure he has come to play 13 which he couldnt do often at Wasps. I think Loz will move to 12 with Barritt having more rest games to make room for him. If Loz finds form then Daly will be competing for wing with Maitland and williams

Re: Wales v England pt2
SarrieSaint 18 August, 2019 00:43
Quote:
sarricen
That yellow was never a yellow in a million years. Not even a penalty. Both arms were going in to bind. And it was so deep in Wales half

Always a yellow for me. He tried to be cute but wasn't especially subtle about it. Had there not been a three man overlap it would have only been a penalty I guess but I see little to complain about with that call. Biggars "tackle" on Maro and the failure to penalise Wales for collapsing the scrum at the end of the game I am less sanguine about.

Re: Wales v England pt2
Barnesy 18 August, 2019 03:12
Quote:
Sarriebone
Not sure on the laws but shouldn't the ref have waited for Joseph to be off the field to restart the play?

With the clock stopped for the TMO, I don't understand how the ref could restart the game with a player going off for a HIA.

Not to mention every time I've seen a team try and go quick after a yellow card they've been stopped by the ref saying something along the lines of "time's off, wait for the player to leave the pitch"

Re: Wales v England pt2
Innings 18 August, 2019 13:35
Unfortunately, the referee awarded the try anyway. However they got there, IMHO, Wales deserved the win and England deserved to lose.

England will go into the RWC utterly dependent on six Sarries players, Mako, Jamie, George, Maro, Billy, Owen, without any of whom whom the side will simply be too weakened to get beyond the QFs:

Mako is the only prop whose skill as a ball-carrier is good enough to demand as much attention as Wales gave to Billy
Jamie is the only international standard hooker available to England
George management wins line-outs, his scrum influence was clear yesterday, and his every carry is almost certain to get over the gain-line, whilst his close defence is fearsome
Maro is Maro
Billy is the top close-in ball-carrier, wide-out receiver, in the entire squad
Owen is the heart-beat, the player who makes everyone else play better, who demands the best of all around him, and is the stand-out 10 as well.

I cannot see any where in EQ terms a player who can stand in adequately for any of this sextet.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Wales v England pt2
SarrieSaint 18 August, 2019 15:06
The reality is players will get injured Innings . There's no doubt to me that of your list the Vunipolae and Jamie George are basically irreplaceable. The others we have cover that is pretty much in line with other teams resources. It will be interesting to see if Billy is picked again next week against Ireland. So much for player welfare if he is.

Re: Wales v England pt2
Innings 18 August, 2019 20:02
I'm not really thinking about other teams' resources. This is more my thinking about how the England set-up is going into RWC with a team that lacks international-quality depth in key positions.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Wales v England pt2
TonyTaff 19 August, 2019 08:56
I was amazed at how poor England were.



721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Wales v England pt2
sarricen 19 August, 2019 11:43
Quote:
TonyTaff
I was amazed at how poor England were.

I'm equally amazed how poor Wales were, given it was far closer to their first team, in Wales and against a 'poor' England performance

I honestly can't see Wales coming even close to troubling South Africa, New Zealand or even Australia

Re: Wales v England pt2
Garp285 19 August, 2019 15:54
Quote:
sarricen
Quote:
TonyTaff
I was amazed at how poor England were.

I'm equally amazed how poor Wales were, given it was far closer to their first team, in Wales and against a 'poor' England performance

I honestly can't see Wales coming even close to troubling South Africa, New Zealand or even Australia
What people seem to be forgetting is that this "second string", "experimental" or whatever you want to call it, is actually the England squad for the RWC. Wales were missing Rob Evans, Samson Lee, Corey Hill, Justin Tipuric, Josh Navidi, Talupe Faletau, Gareth Anscombe, Liam Williams - all of whom are arguable first choice! The difference is that a number of England's back up haven't been blooded, whereas the Welsh have. Whose fault is that? Remember, this is the actual England squad for the RWC!

Re: Wales v England pt2
TonyTaff 20 August, 2019 17:33
Some thoughtful analysis.

I still don't think Sarries will be using Elliot in the back three!

[www.planetrugby.com]



721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Wales v England pt2
SarrieSaint 21 August, 2019 14:55
TT where will they use him then? My views are known but he has some issues as a centre too if Sarries are looking for him to defend at all (or even lead the defence)

Re: Wales v England pt2
AlanE 21 August, 2019 15:41
If the coaches could sort out Charlie's defence I'm sure they will do a good job on him.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

Re: Wales v England pt2
Garp285 21 August, 2019 16:16
Quote:
SarrieSaint
TT where will they use him then? My views are known but he has some issues as a centre too if Sarries are looking for him to defend at all (or even lead the defence)
For me, he is definitely behind Alex G and Liam W as a full back. At 13, apparently his preferred position he is probably ahead of Loz and Nick T, (or at least will be quite soon after our coaches get hold of him) but not by a huge amount. On the wing, he is definitely behind Liam W and possibly on a par with Sean Maitland. Assuming he will be away with England when applicable, I can see our back-line (not inluding half-backs) as:
11 - Sean/ED/Lewy
12 - Brad/Nick T/Loz
13 - ED/Loz/Nick T
14 - Liam /ED/Lewy
15 - Alex G/Liam/Matt G (or Max M??)
Personally, I think the money could have been better spent elsewhere, however, I am waiting (and hoping) to proved wrong - as I usually am!!

Re: Wales v England pt2
Garp285 21 August, 2019 16:19
Damn, I forgot Big Dunc in the centres! Adds even more weight to my thoughts regarding money being better spent elsewhere.

Re: Wales v England pt2
SarrieSaint 21 August, 2019 16:25
Garp285 I certainly agree with money being spent better elsewhere.
I'd qualify that with saying at his very best (Lions?) he is a very exciting player with great pace and good attacking instincts. Hopefully (in a way) part of his current problem is "just" a loss of mojo because I think the team and coaches can probably turn that around quite quickly.
I'd have him behind both Lozo and Tompkins at 13 and Gallagher too at FB. It isn't that he doesn't have good qualities but I think he's currently deficient in non-negotiables of those positions; defence and for FB aerial work both in defence and attack. I just hope he really has a will to be the best he can be as those issues were ones as far back as the Lions tour and I see little sign he's addressed them.

Re: Wales v England pt2
TonyTaff 22 August, 2019 09:34
Quote:
SarrieSaint
TT where will they use him then? My views are known but he has some issues as a centre too if Sarries are looking for him to defend at all (or even lead the defence)

13, but running the defence is surely beyond him!



721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Wales v England pt2
TonyTaff 22 August, 2019 09:41
Back on topic: Gauzere was OK to allow play to restart before Youngs had joined the play. They did this by amending the law, so that the ref now has to wait.


Brilliant! Too much to expect that the laws could be written properly first time sad smiley



721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Wales v England pt2
Garp285 22 August, 2019 13:39
Quote:
TonyTaff
Back on topic: Gauzere was OK to allow play to restart before Youngs had joined the play. They did this by amending the law, so that the ref now has to wait.

Brilliant! Too much to expect that the laws could be written properly first time sad smiley
Yes, as I've said elsewhere, England's slow of thinking out-thought again, so they get the laws changed, again (Sm108) It's like Italy, all over again(Sm151)

Re: Wales v England pt2
TonyTaff 22 August, 2019 16:38
Quote:
Garp285
Quote:
TonyTaff
Back on topic: Gauzere was OK to allow play to restart before Youngs had joined the play. They did this by amending the law, so that the ref now has to wait.

Brilliant! Too much to expect that the laws could be written properly first time sad smiley
Yes, as I've said elsewhere, England's slow of thinking out-thought again, so they get the laws changed, again (Sm108) It's like Italy, all over again(Sm151)

What's the Welsh for 'Dja vu'? winking smiley



721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Wales v England pt2
Sara'sman 29 August, 2019 16:30
Quote:
Garp285
Quote:
SarrieSaint
TT where will they use him then? My views are known but he has some issues as a centre too if Sarries are looking for him to defend at all (or even lead the defence)
For me, he is definitely behind Alex G and Liam W as a full back. At 13, apparently his preferred position he is probably ahead of Loz and Nick T, (or at least will be quite soon after our coaches get hold of him) but not by a huge amount. On the wing, he is definitely behind Liam W and possibly on a par with Sean Maitland. Assuming he will be away with England when applicable, I can see our back-line (not inluding half-backs) as:
11 - Sean/ED/Lewy
12 - Brad/Nick T/Loz
13 - ED/Loz/Nick T
14 - Liam /ED/Lewy
15 - Alex G/Liam/Matt G (or Max M??)
Personally, I think the money could have been better spent elsewhere, however, I am waiting (and hoping) to proved wrong - as I usually am!!

Whilst I share the opinion that Daly's lack of confidence under the high ball prevents him from being a top quality 15 I'd suggest he's better in both this respect and in tackling than Malins. We've been at the forefront in the development of the aerial/kicking game, a style that requires both good kickers and good chasers able to compete in the air (where Strettle and Ashton improved significantly whilst with us). Daly is an excellent kicker whether for distance, to compete or with grubbers and a good competitor in attack too (that England incident excepted).

I'd also suggest, respectfully I hope, that Garp's list (with repetitions) is the wrong way of considering our strength and needs. We need to factor in Maitland's gradual loss of pace, Lewington's difficulty in adapting to our style and to replace Strettle. For me we are better looking at:

Back3: Goode, Williams, Maitland, Daly (23), Lewington, Gallagher, Segun*
Centre: Barritt, Lozowski, Tompkins Taylor, Malins, Morris*, (Hakalo).

With Goode's ability to cover 10 I think he'll remain our big game backup there so our "Cup Final" squad would include those in bold above (part of the reason behind Malins' 1 year only extension?). Injuries, Internationals and rotation will ensure plenty of appearances for Lewington, Gallagher, Taylor and Malins, and ease the progression of Segun and Morris into the squad. They, along with those not listed (Crossdale, Obatoyinbo, Watson, Hallett) will also get chances in the Cup and A League.

Hopefully we'll see the likes of Taylor far more frequently in the coming season, though this will probably be balanced by Brad being rested more and both Tompkins and Lozowski needing greater recuperation. Finally, I'd suggest that Daly's flexibility is something that, as with Wyles, we will come to value. I think we'll see him gliding at 13 a good deal too. Welcome Elliot - I'm looking forward to watching you at AP.

Re: Wales v England pt2
Roger G 29 August, 2019 17:36
If he can stay fit and on his top form I'd say Taylor would be nailed on for our best 23.


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