Latest news:
New Page 1

Whatever your views on Saracens, whether a Sarries fan or not, leave them here.

To leave a message on this board you must register. To register click HERE, it takes only a minute.
Non-rugby posts are welcome, but please prefix your subject header with "OT" or "Off Topic".


Thought for the Day:
ANOTHER SEMI-FINAL

Latest: SARACENS 28:21 HARLEQUINS
Next: SARACENS v NORTHAMPTON SAINTS
Sat 19th Oct Allianz 15.00 GP

Audio: Click the link below. If it ain' there, it ain't on!
Upcoming TV: Sat 19th Oct Northampton Saints v Saracens GP BT Sport 2 15.00

BBC Online Rugby Union Commentaries

The Fish | Rugby Union News | Fez Boys | Saracens Fixtures | The SSA | Rugby on TV


Goto Page: Previous12
Current Page: 2 of 2
Re: Daily Mail muckraking
saracen1971 20 September, 2019 22:29
For balance how many of tomorrow's matchday 23 do people honestly think are on more than say 50k?

The thing that staggers me is clearly saracens retain and recruit players who's primary motivation (and probably secondary as well) is not money.. and yet they are badged as liars as is anyone who attempts to explain.

The days of players coming to us for fat payday at the twilight of the career are long gone.

I wonder what it would take to 'buy' Owen Farrell's career off him.. as in hand it all back . no trips no bonding no family care no medals no trophy no awards.. Nada but you get xxx in the bank. That number divided by say 10 years may give people an idea how much under par players stay at saracens for.

Add in they are not eligible as marquees at another prem club and in a way it becomes easier to see why they stay?

And FWIW I doubt tomorrow's squad gets anywhere near £1m ... strip out 2 marquees and that leaves about £7m for the others. Not saying theres much room, but its doable

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Innings 20 September, 2019 23:46
Is your thought now that there has been no present breach, but there could be in the future, based on 'Possible future profit'? Does that mean that if the ventures lose money those losses will be deductions from the cap?

Could this all be a cunning plot, for the companies to lose money, get tax relief for the investors and simultaneously increase the cap by the gross amount of the losses?



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Duncan96 21 September, 2019 08:34
Quote:
Innings
Is your thought now that there has been no present breach, but there could be in the future, based on 'Possible future profit'? Does that mean that if the ventures lose money those losses will be deductions from the cap?
Could this all be a cunning plot, for the companies to lose money, get tax relief for the investors and simultaneously increase the cap by the gross amount of the losses?

Blimey. You are a man of heroic leaps of logic! smiling smiley

All Iím doing is the following: many posts here are assuming Saracens have breached the cap through cash payments. Nothing of the sort is alleged by the Daily Mail.

Iíve tried to lay out what has actually happened to show that itís quite a legal nicety to bring it within a breach of the salary cap rules. It might be, but given that no profit might ever arise on the houses, especially if management charges are made to the companies, it looks hard to this layman.

Whether or not itís all caught by the rules (which are completely distinct from tax rules) I canít imagine any circumstances in which the arrangements increase our salary cap!

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
myleftboot 21 September, 2019 10:27
What is the difference between, for example, Faz and Nige starting a business together any different to Kruis and Day, or Wyles and Big Al before them? If they weren't playing for Sarries none of these businesses would have likely started, and if anyone can explain why there is any difference for me please

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Innings 21 September, 2019 14:08
"Iíve tried to lay out what has actually happened to show that itís quite a legal nicety to bring it within a breach of the salary cap rules. "

Please share with us sight of the companies articles of association, shareholder agreements and bank statements, which you must have seen in order to be able to say what actually happened.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
myleftboot 21 September, 2019 15:51
Statesman, dude.... Sorry to point out FACTS, but Saracens have never been found guilty of breaking the salary cap. Wasps, Quins, yes, Saracens, no. Hope that helps.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
saracen1971 21 September, 2019 15:53
Why do I say that? Because I'm prejudiced by the fact that I know you have cheated the SC in the past.


Ok. I'll bite. Find me that judgement and I'll read the rest of your post.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Duncan96 21 September, 2019 17:52
Quote:
Innings
"Iíve tried to lay out what has actually happened to show that itís quite a legal nicety to bring it within a breach of the salary cap rules. "
Please share with us sight of the companies articles of association, shareholder agreements and bank statements, which you must have seen in order to be able to say what actually happened.

Alright. Let me qualify what I said " I've tried to lay out what the Daily Mail said has actually happened".

Let me please underline the following: Nobody has said that Saracens have made cash payments to players which are in excess of the salary cap. What (the Daily Mail says) has happened is that players have subscribed a small amount for shares in a company which has subsequently bought houses with a bank loan and a loan which probably comes from someone associated with Saracens (although I don't think the Daily Mail confirmed the latter but it's likely).

To date nothing of value has been transferred to the players. Indeed, because the houses are in areas like Bermondsey where house prices have fallen in recent years the companies are probably showing a loss (I can't show you accounts to prove that. Just look at what's happened to Central London house prices since 2016).

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
myleftboot 22 September, 2019 01:16
Quote:
John Tee
If you were expelled from the league you would be guilty, and the club name in disgrace.
I have read your comments before, and you honesty seem to be quite a reasonable rugby fan. Are you seriously suggesting, for a first salary cap transgression, anything more than a fine as proscribed by league rules? Anything else would be pretty indiscriminate, considering Saracens have never before broken this?

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Marlow Nick 22 September, 2019 15:59
This is not the first transgression. Saracens were caught cheating a few years ago. They threatened all the other clubs with legal action and managed to get the cheating swept under the carpet sweetened by some compensation payments. Please don't claim Saracens were proven innocent. They were not and all the club owners know it hence the determination to do something significant if they can prove the current round of cheating.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Sarriebone 22 September, 2019 16:09
Quote:
Marlow Nick
This is not the first transgression. Saracens were caught cheating a few years ago. They threatened all the other clubs with legal action and managed to get the cheating swept under the carpet sweetened by some compensation payments. Please don't claim Saracens were proven innocent. They were not and all the club owners know it hence the determination to do something significant if they can prove the current round of cheating.

Any chance you could give an official source saying they broke the SC?

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Siggy89 22 September, 2019 16:19
Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
Marlow Nick
This is not the first transgression. Saracens were caught cheating a few years ago. They threatened all the other clubs with legal action and managed to get the cheating swept under the carpet sweetened by some compensation payments. Please don't claim Saracens were proven innocent. They were not and all the club owners know it hence the determination to do something significant if they can prove the current round of cheating.

Any chance you could give an official source saying they broke the SC?

No because a settlement fee was paid to prevent the report saying so from being published.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
myleftboot 22 September, 2019 16:45
I'm guessing you believe the earth is flat too.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Sarriebone 22 September, 2019 16:46
Quote:
Siggy89
Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
Marlow Nick
This is not the first transgression. Saracens were caught cheating a few years ago. They threatened all the other clubs with legal action and managed to get the cheating swept under the carpet sweetened by some compensation payments. Please don't claim Saracens were proven innocent. They were not and all the club owners know it hence the determination to do something significant if they can prove the current round of cheating.

Any chance you could give an official source saying they broke the SC?

No because a settlement fee was paid to prevent the report saying so from being published.

Right so there's no actual proof beyond peoples opinions that the cap was broken? My understanding is that there was something going on that wasn't covered within the existing regulations, so no rules broken. The "spirit of the cap" possibly, but in a professional sport there's not place for some imaginary gentleman's agreement imo.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Marlow Nick 22 September, 2019 17:12
There are no official sources because Saracens insist on a non disclosure agreement. They then claim that because no one can disclose anything that proves innocence. Strange isn't it that so many insider (not the likes of you and he but professional journalists & pundits) point to Sarries but still you claim innocence. I could understand "not proven" but certainly not "innocent"

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Sarriebone 22 September, 2019 17:17
Quote:
Marlow Nick
There are no official sources because Saracens insist on a non disclosure agreement. They then claim that because no one can disclose anything that proves innocence. Strange isn't it that so many insider (not the likes of you and he but professional journalists & pundits) point to Sarries but still you claim innocence. I could understand "not proven" but certainly not "innocent"

So Mark McCafferty saying at the time that "There are no breaches" isn't an official source then?

I'm not saying that Saracens/Bath didn't do some things that the other teams didn't like, but that doesn't equal having broken the rules however much you want it to.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
mrangry 22 September, 2019 17:18
May I remind Marlow Nick that libel is knowingly writing things that are not true and having them published. And while I would doubt that comments on this site would be considered libelous his constant interjections using blatantly false statements might lead to other actions being taken if his real identity became known, and his whereabouts publicised. Or perhaps he is a Daily Mail writer using an alias?

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
saracen1971 22 September, 2019 18:53
[www.premiershiprugby.com]

This is all I can find... been looking for the smoking gun all I can see is a disagreement which was settled. By all parties. Why settle if not happy? 10 clubs v 2 seems a fight they could win to me.. Would be grateful if someone could show me some evidence then I'll join the march. Till then I'll focus on supporting my club its players management wider community and the sport in general.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
saracen1971 22 September, 2019 18:58
For those not taken to reading it all...

'Over the last few months, there has been speculation, much of it significantly inaccurate, concerning investigations into Clubs. During that time, Premiership Rugby has not commented in view of the confidentiality obligations in the Regulations.

It is important to clarify that investigations into potential issues concerning Clubs' annual spend happen regularly as part of the Certification and annual audit of each Club. The Salary Cap Manager addresses these issues with the Clubs as part of the ongoing work to support the operational management of the system. Confidentiality, therefore, remains appropriate and necessary.

Premiership Rugby can confirm that certain issues were pursued last season with some Clubs relating to access to information and to commercial contracts where there were differences of opinion as to the correct inclusion or not in the Salary Cap spend. The issues were not straightforward and were subject to differing legal opinion and consequent risk as to any judgment on the correct interpretation. Premiership Rugby and the Clubs have now resolved the issues identified and have entered into appropriate confidential settlements.

"It's important to stress that not only have there been no breaches but we regret that over the past six to nine months supporters have not had clarity during this time when it comes to certain issues being looked at on the Salary Cap," said Premiership Rugby's Chief Executive, Mark McCafferty.

"Confidentiality clauses in the Regulations prevented us from commenting until now.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Innings 22 September, 2019 23:18
IIRC, that statement followed the original 2015 investigation. I have not read any official comment on the more recent situation.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
saracen1971 23 September, 2019 08:00
Yes it does. So as some have said we have not been found guilty. This is not a second offence. Unlike some other clubs.

Maybe Marlow Nick et al needed a brief history lesson.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
SarrieSaint 23 September, 2019 10:10
I get why there's still more than a bit of unhappiness from some other teams supporters re the previous time allegations were made.

The reality though is as in business it's not at all unusual when companies disagree for settlements to be made which is more often than not the result of both sides acknowledging that the legal costs of proceeding versus the likelihood of getting the result "they" want is too uncertain and so they minimise risk.

If supporters from other sides who feel certain "they know" that something dodgy has happened "again" then they need to hold their clubs and boards to account. That, rather than bleating about Sarries, is where they can almost certainly make a difference.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
saracen1971 23 September, 2019 13:13
I've said all along if I felt my club were deprived of a title or chance at one by a side who were breaking the rules and this was proven, and they allowed it to happen turned a blind eye or took cash to let it slide by, I would be as angry with them as the transgressors. If 10 clubs were as passionate about penalizing Saracens why didnt they? Perfect chance.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Siggy89 24 September, 2019 13:45
Three points (not that they will make any difference to the self-deceivers).

One Ė the self-deceivers cans shout ďshow me the evidenceĒ as many times as they like. It only shows they choose not to understand the fact that a settlement fee was paid to prevent the evidence from being published.

Two Ė the idea that it is common practice to pay a settlement fee when you have done no wrong is not only totally laughable but also a great insult to the businessmen who run (or did run) Saracens. Why would any serious businessman pay money to highlight their guilt?

Three Ė why did nine of the remaining eleven clubs ďbottle itĒ and accept the settlement? When you are faced with a barrage of lawyers threatening to stop the league from which they derive income to keep themselves afloat from starting you can understand why. Particularly if they were assured this would never happen again. Until the next time of course.

So over to the self-deceivers to try to convince each other that everything was above board then. Should be a good laugh.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
SarrieSaint 24 September, 2019 14:04
The short answer Siggy would be "get an adult to explain it to you" as most of the answers to your "points" are already contained above.

Ignoring all that and looking at it from your view. If the evidence was clear and unequivical why was a settlement accepted? your post shows you know little about how bigger businesses operate when they balance cost v risk. Your theory is Sarries were guilty but they paid for it to be "covered up" and the other clubs all went meekly along with that? what was that you were saying about self-deceivers?

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
John Tee 24 September, 2019 14:05
Quote:
myleftboot
Quote:
John Tee
If you were expelled from the league you would be guilty, and the club name in disgrace.
I have read your comments before, and you honesty seem to be quite a reasonable rugby fan. Are you seriously suggesting, for a first salary cap transgression, anything more than a fine as proscribed by league rules? Anything else would be pretty indiscriminate, considering Saracens have never before broken this?

assuming a first trangression......
so although we are not privy to the last 'investigation' id assume parties close to the agreemenf might have a position.

Then, if it transpires that it can be interpreted as a second transgression then id suspect a weightier book be thrown.

So, if you could say 2015 was one 'offence' and 2018 another, then that may well be construed that as an attempt to build a team ...and succeeding... by means of circumventing the cap having a team of a higher quality than everyone else...over a period of time.

If any club has done that, theyve cheated everyone by skewing results, tv, investors, clubs players and fans.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Siggy89 24 September, 2019 18:06
Quote:
SarrieSaint
The short answer Siggy would be "get an adult to explain it to you" as most of the answers to your "points" are already contained above.
Ignoring all that and looking at it from your view. If the evidence was clear and unequivical why was a settlement accepted? your post shows you know little about how bigger businesses operate when they balance cost v risk. Your theory is Sarries were guilty but they paid for it to be "covered up" and the other clubs all went meekly along with that? what was that you were saying about self-deceivers?

And your post shows (yet again) that you know very little about business, sport, honesty, decency and integrity.

But you are very good at self-deception.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
SarrieSaint 24 September, 2019 20:16
Sorry Siggy I take it all back, you've won me over with the logic, factual basis of your argument and the erudite way you put it across ... good grief (Sm25)

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
mrangry 24 September, 2019 22:02
I am almost convinced that Soggy 89 is really Geoffrey Cox (Attorney General) as his/her legal "advice" is just as good, and of course would stand up in a court of law, or at least the Daily Smell

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Duncan96 24 September, 2019 22:22
Welcome back to our favourite headbanger. You may have changed your name but the inability to respond to argument or logic and determination to just carry on with repetition of allegation is unmistakable.

Good to hear from you again.

Just a warning to everyone else. Those of us who have tried to engage him in intelligent discussion will testify that itís a complete waste of pixels.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
myleftboot 25 September, 2019 08:07
I used to create multiple accounts when I was a teenager, bless him. At least he doesn't have to wear a disguise or go somewhere nobody knows him to access pornography.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
JO'G 25 September, 2019 12:50
So is 89 the year of his birth or the DDMM when the accout was set up

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Siggy89 25 September, 2019 14:05
Lots of insults including an abusive PM from a coward.

Par for the course from self-deceivers of course.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
myleftboot 25 September, 2019 14:38
(checks trophy cabinet) European Champions Cup, check! Premiership, check. Womens, A league, sevens, chechecheck! Nope, not deceiving myself there! (checks list of clubs who broke the Salary Cap) Quins, Wasps, check! Nope, no self deception there either!

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Duncan96 25 September, 2019 22:21
Quote:
Siggy89
Lots of insults including an abusive PM from a coward.
Par for the course from self-deceivers of course.

I know. You come on here offering nothing but peace and goodwill and everyone takes the mickey out of you. We are so rotten. winking smiley

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Siggy89 26 September, 2019 12:47
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Siggy89
Lots of insults including an abusive PM from a coward.
Par for the course from self-deceivers of course.

I know. You come on here offering nothing but peace and goodwill and everyone takes the mickey out of you. We are so rotten. winking smiley

I haven't abused anyone. You self-deceivers have including the cowardly abuse received by PM. You even deceive yourselves to believe abuse is taking the mickey. Par for the course from self-deceivers of course.

Not that it worries me a jot. It just shows how sensitive you are to those who highlight facts and don't deceive themselves like you.

Over to you for more abuse ................... to prove my point.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
saracen1971 26 September, 2019 14:36
If it doesn't worry you a jot, may I suggest you leave ?

I wouldn't want to stay where everyone disagrees with me.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Waldo 26 September, 2019 15:07
Siggy played for time,
jiving us that we were Voodoo
The kids were just crass,
He was the naz
With God given ass
He took it all too far
But, boy, could he play guitar.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
John Tee 26 September, 2019 15:13
But then how dull would a board be if everyone parrotted the same ...
That is one of the issues you get when groups on a board go off in a huff and start a new board up.
You get someone start a thread, and a few sycophants echo the point and you become really insular and dont accept anything else.

Its quite funny in a sad way...but it happens so often.
You don't have look too far on sportnetwork to see examples of it.
You wouldn't have to research too hard finding the new sites where one half of a board from here has ended up either.

Goto Page: Previous12
Current Page: 2 of 2

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net