Latest news:
New Page 1

Welcome to The Saracens. Our message board is primarily a place for Saracens fans to discuss our club. We welcome posters from other clubs as long as their posts are respectful and not repetitive and our guidelines are followed. To leave a message on this board you must register. To register click HERE,
Non-rugby posts are welcome, but please prefix your subject header with "OT" or "Off Topic".


Thought for the Day:
LOCKDOWN!

Latest: SARACENS 23:14 LEICESTER TIGERS
Next: God only knows!

Audio: Click the link below. If it ain' there, it ain't on!
Upcoming TV: tbc

BBC Online Rugby Union Commentaries

The Fish | Rugby Union News | Fez Boys | Saracens Fixtures | The SSA | Rugby on TV


SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
Discussion started by TheSaracens.com , 20 October, 2019 18:55
SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
TheSaracens.com 20 October, 2019 18:55
Thanks Philip, welcome back



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2019 13:26 by Darraghgirl.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
TonyTaff 20 October, 2019 20:15
An insightful report. Thanks!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
SarrieSaint 20 October, 2019 20:30
Where do I complain about people turning up late and making me get up from my seat? ... only joking .

Excellent match report. Would certainly echo the thoughts about a disconnect in the back three. All three are talented players but how much they want it will be shown by how hard they try to remedy those positional and communication errors I guess?

Was Goode back too soon? The role of the senior players is even more important when the squad is operating with so many young players and it felt a bit like a lack of leadership on the field.

Onwards and upwards though and thanks as always to yourself; DG and the others who regularly post these excellent match pieces. Feels a bit silly to say this but might be nice to see a bit more recognition from those that use the site of the work done in keeping it alive even if it's just to say "I enjoyed reading that" on these articles.
(Sm128)

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
Sara'sman 20 October, 2019 21:18
More please!

Thanks Innings, interesting detail and analysis, plenty to reflect on. Now you've highlighted it, I'd agree that the pendulum certainly does need work - perhaps the excellent Gallagher's next step if he is to fulfil all that potential. Lewington also needs to support better in attack, and be aware of his support when in possession.

I wrote last year that I rate Goode as our second best10. I also finally came very close to agreeing with what has been the majority view on here for some time - that Spencer was our first choice 9 (though in part influenced by Wiggy's injuries). But I thought neither had a good game. Alex repeatedly took the ball standing still and could only shovel on a hard carry to the industrious Tompkins. But the oft excellent Ben, to me, showed why he's not in Japan. Deprived of regular front foot ball he reverted to his slow, lazy delivery. I'd like to see him more aware of options before he arrives at rucks; he needs to boss games like yesterdays (and the forwards) far more strongly. Wiggy does, even though Ben has pace on top of his skill set.

Is the unused Kpoku carrying a knock? I'd like to see Isiekwe at 6 (like you I feel we missed Rhodes) and Joel added to our hard carrying forwards. Earl is still learning and whilst I'd agree he was our best Back Row (Wray took a heavy blow) he needs to lower his error count - a poor No8 break from the base included. I also hope BT's half time view of his clear out is wrong. He's some way to go to compete with Jones' "Twins" or Jack Willis who was outstanding today. I fear you're right re Hartley but hope you're not. Never good to see injuries force a retirement.

My pre-season hope was to get 8 points from the first 4 games and that the returnees won't be too battered. Unfortunately all 11+1 are staying on and won't be available for the next fortnight. Most will then need (at least) a 1 week break before going straight into European games. It amazes me how many contributors on other boards think we'll top the league this year! Patience, pacing the season and picking up points with regularly depleted sides will be key. Great opportunities for the next generation though.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
JohnI 20 October, 2019 21:55
Few more saints players missing due to a large injury list and RWC call ups than mentioned above and North no longer playing for Saints since the season before last

B. Franks injured returning
Haywood injured
O. Franks not yet joined
Api Ratunarswi. Fiji
Lawes England
Brussow
Gibson Injured
Harrison Injured
Reinach S Africa
Biggar Wales
Tuala Samoa
Francis England
Proctor Not yet joined
Olowofela
Mallinder. Injured
Hartley. Injured

All in all a very good game to watch yesterday with both sides going all out for the win. Have a good season

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
The Bard 20 October, 2019 22:27
We certainly shouldnít kid ourselves this was Saints first team against our reserves. We had enough quality out there to win this and more than enough opportunity to do so.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
Connorman 21 October, 2019 10:48
Quote:
JohnI
Few more saints players missing due to a large injury list and RWC call ups than mentioned above and North no longer playing for Saints since the season before last
B. Franks injured returning
Haywood injured
O. Franks not yet joined
Api Ratunarswi. Fiji
Lawes England
Brussow
Gibson Injured
Harrison Injured
Reinach S Africa
Biggar Wales
Tuala Samoa
Francis England
Proctor Not yet joined
Olowofela
Mallinder. Injured
Hartley. Injured

All in all a very good game to watch yesterday with both sides going all out for the win. Have a good season

Ludlum. England

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
JohnI 21 October, 2019 13:46
Ludlum. How the hell could I forget him !!!!!!!
Tganks

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
Jim 55 21 October, 2019 19:05
[quote JohnI]Ludlum. How the hell could I forget him !!!!!!!
Tganks[/quote

He is somewhat reasonable I can accept that quite happilysmiling smiley

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
Aberavon Wizard 21 October, 2019 19:32
We fully accept the overall strength of the Sarries squad and the number of those still in Japan. Nonetheless, it is gratifying to see some acknowledgment that Saints are almost a full match day squad short at the moment with RWC and injuries. We will take a narrow victory at AP any time !

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
jonnybrowne 22 October, 2019 12:57
Excellent, very insightful match report - thank you.

One player who concerns me a bit is Alex Lewington, who doesn't seem to have "kicked on" since a good start with Sarries last season.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
David@Sarries 22 October, 2019 16:31
Thanks for a really insightful match report.

I was disappointed with 2 players performance - Alex G and Loz. Neither seemed to stamp their authority on the game and Loz was certainly overshadowed by Nick Tís performance.

Iím hoping that the error count was simply rustiness and that weíre better on Saturday.

I am more than a bit worried about our back row though; we have no depth at all. We have not replaced the two who left and, whilst the Academy players look promising I donít see a Billy V replacement. If JW is injured or loses form where do we go?

Perhaps weíll see some post RWC signings...

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
TonyTaff 22 October, 2019 18:01
Quote:
Connorman
Quote:
JohnI
Few more saints players missing due to a large injury list and RWC call ups than mentioned above and North no longer playing for Saints since the season before last
B. Franks injured returning
Haywood injured
O. Franks not yet joined
Api Ratunarswi. Fiji
Lawes England
Brussow
Gibson Injured
Harrison Injured
Reinach S Africa
Biggar Wales
Tuala Samoa
Francis England
Proctor Not yet joined
Olowofela
Mallinder. Injured
Hartley. Injured

All in all a very good game to watch yesterday with both sides going all out for the win. Have a good season

Ludlum. England

While the two lists of absentees are similar in length, they differ vastly in quality.

The Saints list contains only Lawes and Biggar who are world class; Reinach at a push.

The Sarries list has Vunipola x2, George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell and Williams - all Lions; Kock and Figallo would get in most international squads.

I remain of the view that it is a travesty of greed that has seen Premiership matches scheduled While the World Cup is still being played. sad smiley



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
The Bard 22 October, 2019 21:39
Iím with you on that by and large, harsh when you have to be compared to Williams/Maitland/Strettle but thatís the price of joining a big club

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
Saint Stokey 23 October, 2019 10:17
I would also consider Owen Franks to be World Class, same with Matt Proctor, both current All Blacks at the time of signing.

And whilst they may not be good enough to make the Saracens starting side, they will not doubt improve ours. Sadly, we don't have the resources to build as impressive a squad as you do.

I fully admit that on another day, the result could have been different, but I will certainly take it.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
jonnybrowne 23 October, 2019 13:02
Quote:
The Bard
Iím with you on that by and large, harsh when you have to be compared to Williams/Maitland/Strettle but thatís the price of joining a big club

Very fair comment.

Alex doesn't lack the talent to aspire to be bracketed in that rightly exalted company - we certainly saw glimpses of it last season - and clearly Mark McCall saw enough in him to bring him to Sarries in the first place.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
TonyTaff 23 October, 2019 15:48
Quote:
Saint Stokey
I would also consider Owen Franks to be World Class, same with Matt Proctor, both current All Blacks at the time of signing.
And whilst they may not be good enough to make the Saracens starting side, they will not doubt improve ours. Sadly, we don't have the resources to build as impressive a squad as you do.

I fully admit that on another day, the result could have been different, but I will certainly take it.

I admire your spirit! Matt Proctor gained one cap, as a makeweight in the All Black touring team; it was the Japan match, when the established ABs caught a later plane! He didn't figure in the European matches, and may even have gone home! Hardly World Class.

Franks the younger has a great pedigree, but has lost out to Ta'avo and Laulala, with Tu'ungafasi covering both sides at RWC. I imagine that the ABs had already told him that he was yesterday's man when he signed. He's only 31, so could play 4 seasons, and may prove to be a mentor to other props (not least Hill, who promised much more than he has achieved), in the manner of Adam Jones at Quins.



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
Innings 23 October, 2019 17:47
What does 'world class' actually mean? Would make the 23 for a World v Mars fixture? Nailed on starter for a Tier 1 nation? Played a couple of times for a Tier 1 nation in a top-level tournament? Bench warmer for the same? Starts regularly for a club in one of the three top club tournaments? Played or is about to play for same, but recognised as world class ?

IMHO the player has to be generally recognised as one of the world's top three or four players in their favoured position, based on current playing standard. That would exclude the majority of players, even internationals, who are regularly touted as world class, but only by their club supporters.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
TonyTaff 23 October, 2019 17:59
Quote:
Innings
What does 'world class' actually mean? Would make the 23 for a World v Mars fixture? Nailed on starter for a Tier 1 nation? Played a couple of times for a Tier 1 nation in a top-level tournament? Bench warmer for the same? Starts regularly for a club in one of the three top club tournaments? Played or is about to play for same, but recognised as world class ?
IMHO the player has to be generally recognised as one of the world's top three or four players in their favoured position, based on current playing standard. That would exclude the majority of players, even internationals, who are regularly touted as world class, but only by their club supporters.

You are entitled to infer my definition from my exclusion of Maitland, Taylor, Daly and Carrť.



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
myleftboot 23 October, 2019 20:48
Innings, I would reckon you would have to be in the discussion for inclusion in the World 23 to be World Class, tieing it down to a number for each shirt is problematic, if say top 4, you would be naming the best 8 locks, but best 4 tens.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
Duckonstilts 24 October, 2019 09:35
World class as mentioned has a different meaning to different people. Some say, Have you got a world cup winners medal. Well there are some quite average players who can claim that and then some exceptional players who just happen to be Italian for example ( In my opinion Sergio Parisse is one of the best players I have ever seen but he couldnt carry a whole country).

I think Best 23 is a reasonable shout but Rugby is also about combinations, So two decent players can turn into world beaters when together but cant reach the same level independently.

Then you have to consider how much easier it is to look good in a winning team, Almost anyone would look good playing for the All Blacks. And they hand out caps like sweets.

There is probably no easy answer but you would think it involves somewhere around 50 international caps.


As for the game, I thought we (Saints) had bottled it in the second half. Saracens were wise to keep kicking the points as it kept you in touch when it was clear your attacking game was not up to its usual standard (understandably of course). I know in theory that was not our best team but our success last year was built on the backs of our young Academy graduates so to see so many do well again was not too surprising. I would say that our injury issues are no worse than last year and its worked out ok. This time next year a big chunk of these players could be considered first choice.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
TonyTaff 24 October, 2019 11:04
I would qualify "50 international cups" with "in a country with meaningful competition for places."

It's possible to get to 50 caps with Scotland or Italy, without approaching the best in the World. I have a Scottish friend who is convinced that the only reason there were so few Scotsmen on the 2017 Lions tour is that there was no Scottish Coach. His wife is building a padded cell to accomodate his delusional episodes!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
mksarrie 24 October, 2019 12:52
Oi , Tony - be careful. I resemble that remark ☺
Jock Mcsarrie!

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
Innings 24 October, 2019 14:54
TT, you would rule out Itoje as being world class? He is probably one of the very few players in the world who would be an automatic starter for whichever country he represented. Jamie George might disagree as well, just to name two Sarries with fewer than 50 caps. Hard rules make harsh judgements.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
SaintsAsh 28 October, 2019 13:54
Quote:
TonyTaff
Quote:
Connorman
Quote:
JohnI
Few more saints players missing due to a large injury list and RWC call ups than mentioned above and North no longer playing for Saints since the season before last
B. Franks injured returning
Haywood injured
O. Franks not yet joined
Api Ratunarswi. Fiji
Lawes England
Brussow
Gibson Injured
Harrison Injured
Reinach S Africa
Biggar Wales
Tuala Samoa
Francis England
Proctor Not yet joined
Olowofela
Mallinder. Injured
Hartley. Injured

All in all a very good game to watch yesterday with both sides going all out for the win. Have a good season

Ludlum. England

While the two lists of absentees are similar in length, they differ vastly in quality.

The Saints list contains only Lawes and Biggar who are world class; Reinach at a push.

The Sarries list has Vunipola x2, George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell and Williams - all Lions; Kock and Figallo would get in most international squads.

I remain of the view that it is a travesty of greed that has seen Premiership matches scheduled While the World Cup is still being played. sad smiley

Owen Frank's might be considered on par with with Vunipola, Proctor is as good as Williams, Lawes gets in ahead of Kruis for England, Biggar has been Wales best player at WC, Hartley would get in most international teams when fit. Question is, how do Saints manage to fit so many World class players in our squad and stay under the salary cap?

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
myleftboot 28 October, 2019 18:06
Quote:
SaintsAsh
Question is, how do Saints manage to fit so many World class players in our squad and stay under the salary cap?
Sssh. Keep it down! Believe me, you don't want our trolls!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/10/2019 18:07 by myleftboot.

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
SaintsAsh 28 October, 2019 18:40
Quote:
myleftboot
Quote:
SaintsAsh
Question is, how do Saints manage to fit so many World class players in our squad and stay under the salary cap?
Sssh. Keep it down! Believe me, you don't want our trolls!

Lol

Re: SARRIES STUTTER, SAINTS SATISFIED
TonyTaff 29 October, 2019 08:40
Quote:
Innings
TT, you would rule out Itoje as being world class? He is probably one of the very few players in the world who would be an automatic starter for whichever country he represented. Jamie George might disagree as well, just to name two Sarries with fewer than 50 caps. Hard rules make harsh judgements.

Innings, I was qualifying the statement by another poster, namely that the 50 cap criterion is, in some cases, not a sufficient condition. I agree with you that there are some circumstances where it is not a necessary condition.



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net